Mark Darling Took the Bible out of ECC

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[blonde]

I was chatting to Linda and just recalled this true story about when we first moved to the ECC building about Mark saying not to carry Bibles to church:

Mark showed a video one Sunday at the pre-ECC building (Regina Middle School in Minneapolis) of the new church building were to move into, and he was excited and the we moved.  It was just like that.  Mark and Brent said we were to go, and we went. 

Then one of the first Sundays, I still remember Mark Darling rebuking in public Brent Knox for carrying a huge Bible to the new ECC.  Like not to offend the new people in Bloomington.  Brent stopped carrying that thing.  Sad.  Very sad that Mark took the Bible out of ECC very early.  I knew then to leave and I didn't.

Q: Does anyone know of a progressive GCx church or ministry that has Bibles?  I know for sure at the Rock, Mark Darling's church, they don't carry Bibles.  Sad.  No one can cross-ref what Mark is saying as true.  Again, the biblical teaching of this church is unfounded and going to place it should have never.

Are Bibles carried by students at FaithWalkers?  I really don't know?

-Blonde

[Linda]

Do I know you, Blonde? I don't remember chatting with you!

I have posted here before about how our church was very much a "seeker church" when we started attending (August 1995). The Labor Day weekend service (1995) was done by MD and we were told that we were going into seeker mode, so we shouldn't bring Bibles because it intimidated non-believers. I bought into this at the time. This is also where we heard the infamous, "I'm going to bring out my worship girls to attract people to Christ" sermon.

I no longer believe in the seeker church method because it really isn't a church. It's an evangelistic outreach, but not a church.

Our church did give away one year Bibles and journals to everyone. Aside from the fact that the translation was NLT (not a fan of the NLT), the idea was a wonderful one. That's one of the best things they did.

[blonde]

Interesting how sexism was used by Darling.  Hot girls with tight clothes bring all the rich guys from Bloomington in.  I think Darling is a man that used sexism and racism to his advantage.  I knew Nikki Patterson before she was Doug's wife.  She was on the singing worship team.

-Blonde

[newcreature]

Interesting how MD misused another Bible passage: "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." That was God telling Samuel not to pick the next King of Israel (David) based upon outward appearance; it wasn't God telling MD to exploit fleshly shallowness and resort to "sex appeal" tactics.

[Linda]

The verse he used was about wisdom calling out her maidens. Proverbs 9:3, I think. Not sure what translation he used.

He didn't say anything about "hot girls with tight clothes". He might have said something like "my girls". Whatever he said disturbed us enough that we went to the next service on Sunday (we had attended the Friday night service) to make sure we heard right. This was about the 3rd week we had been there. Huge red flag. However, he didn't repeat that point, so we figured someone had told him that was inappropriate. Of course, we still should have questioned whether or not we wanted to attend a church with someone who would say something like that and not self-edit.

They did love to mention that "man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart" as a reason to look good. Another Scripture twisting that I remember is using the verse in 1 Peter 5 about not lording it over the flock as proof that all pastors are to be obeyed in all things because the verse begins with "Be Shepherds of the flock that is under your care." Obviously, this is proof that we are "under" our pastors and to submit to everything they say about any topic. Anyone walking down the street would draw that conclusion.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Being overweight was also not "winsome".  The point was not to be healthy, to enjoy a long life, activities with family, or to take care of what God has given you, but to basically not embarrass GC.   That was what it felt like.  As a new mom with lots of extra weight and stress levels high, it just heaped the pressure on.  Looking back, I see now how being at church 5-6 nights a week cut into health time, but the truly dedicated were up early (4, 5, 6 am) to be physically fit.  I remember Mark telling us his exercise program in a message and it involved running up and down his stairs a ton of times... like 100 or something, probably more, I simply can't remember.  That was about the time when he told us how he rented, didn't have any electronic gadgets, and lived simply so he could focus more on reaching people.  It just felt like a spartan, legalistic, image focused kind of life and not the organic, beautiful, joyful life I wanted for my family.  But I found myself feeling guilty as though my desires were hedonistic.  I think when we finally started travelling and seeing there were other ways of doing things and history and beauty and life outside the GC/legalistic Christian way, life was so great.  Even in the midst of struggle, to admit that God made beauty and that we could enjoy it and even buy some beautiful things for my home and children and even myself, it was so great.  I bought a skirt about that time.  I have saved it even though I literally wore holes in it!  I have it in my attic and I every time I look at it, it becomes a reminder of that summer when we transitioned in thought.  When we quit leading so many things, and went on more walks and played more and bought a hammock.  There is nothing like freedom when you have been under somebody's thumb.

[ISU Alumna]

I think when we finally started travelling and seeing there were other ways of doing things and history and beauty and life outside the GC/legalistic Christian way, life was so great.  Even in the midst of struggle, to admit that God made beauty and that we could enjoy it and even buy some beautiful things for my home and children and even myself, it was so great.  I bought a skirt about that time.  I have saved it even though I literally wore holes in it!  I have it in my attic and I every time I look at it, it becomes a reminder of that summer when we transitioned in thought.  When we quit leading so many things, and went on more walks and played more and bought a hammock.  There is nothing like freedom when you have been under somebody's thumb.

That's beautiful, Agatha. Thanks for posting it. 

[blonde]

Again the overweight issue.  It seems to me that the German-blood runs deep this this church.  Be pretty, look pretty and act pretty.  WOW!  I recall when Brent Knox addressed a women's weight reduction class/Bible Study--he disbanded it after only 1 month since we did not lose the weight 'we should have.'  He said it was not glorifying God. 

It is even more insulting that Mary Knox herself runs now a Thin Within, or something to that effect.  We were herded around like cattle,  told we had to lose it fast, and just like that it was disbanded.  No grace.  No love.  Bill Brown's wife, Barb Brown of the early ECC ran it.  Bill Brown was on the Board for a short while, I believe.  We were all shocked.  I am not sure about what Mary's weight loss ratio is now, but I am sure she was not asked by her husband or Mark to lose all her weigh in a month, or even if she requires her members to do so.  Grace for the leaders, and their wives?  That's a related topic if I would say so myself.

Sorry that happened and you found your way out, AgathaL'Orange.  And found freedom.  I found it later.  You certainly did not want to get treated the way we did in that Bible Study.  Really, it was a Bible Study for over-weight women.  But now I feel that Mark was behind what was said to us, and he demanded Brent to get the class done with and over.  Mark can barely tolerate a fat person, even talking about it in a sermon, he seems so bothered by 'the thought of a heavy peson.'  I have been told that point years and years over, and heard him off-handedly say things against this group of heavy people in very very negative way.

I wished I listened to my heart far sooner than I did.

[newcreature]

That sounds very demeaning, judgmental, and legalistic. Did MD and BK also implement a weight loss "Bible study" or exercise class for men? If not, you can add sexist to the list of adjectives.

[blonde]

It is the truth!  I am not making things more exaggerated.  They are sexist, legalistic and prudes.  They treat women like crap.  You were not in the Bible study, and Mark always comments in or about weight or fat people.  Prove me that I am wrong.  We were dis-banded since we did not lose the weight we should have in 4 weeks.  One month.  Such a loving church!

-Blonde

[newcreature]

Hi Blonde, I did and I do believe you, and I was very sad to hear what they did to you and other women. Their (GCx leaders) attitudes and actions were what I was referring to when I said: "That sounds very demeaning, judgmental, and legalistic." And then I added that they were sexist to boot if they only treated the women that way.

I sincerely apologize for not stating it better the first time. (I just requested that Involved, a GCx promoter, be clear in his posts; and I certainly want to "practice what I preach," so to speak.)

I was simply flabbergasted by the extent of MD's outright demeaning, judgmental, legalistic, and sexist ways. I am so sorry you had to endure that humiliation along with all the other abuses you suffered at GCx.

Kind regards,
newcreature

[Kelli]

I haven't posted here in a while, but the discussion on weight caught my attention. I remember the summer I left and came home (I was an emotional basket case), my parents tried to help me by having me talk with a priest (I grew up Episcopalian). He was a very nice man and tried to help me the best he could. But, when he told me he thought I had been in a cult, I shut down and wouldn't really listen to him anymore. I remember thinking that because he was overweight, he wasn't truly following God or wasn't truly spiritual.

I feel such regret for feeling that way and just attributed my thoughts to my own faults. It is funny, though because I vaguely (I blocked out most of that year) remember people who were overweight were looked down upon. It makes me think that maybe I was just responding to what I was taught.

Kelli

[steelgirl]

Do I know you, Blonde? I don't remember chatting with you!

I have posted here before about how our church was very much a "seeker church" when we started attending (August 1995). The Labor Day weekend service (1995) was done by MD and we were told that we were going into seeker mode, so we shouldn't bring Bibles because it intimidated non-believers. I bought into this at the time. This is also where we heard the infamous, "I'm going to bring out my worship girls to attract people to Christ" sermon.

I no longer believe in the seeker church method because it really isn't a church. It's an evangelistic outreach, but not a church.

Our church did give away one year Bibles and journals to everyone. Aside from the fact that the translation was NLT (not a fan of the NLT), the idea was a wonderful one. That's one of the best things they did.

Hey, I like the NLT for some things.  I do prefer the NIV though better.  I do think something is the matter when church leaders outright discourage attenders from bringing Bibles to church.   I left Mosaic because I was not getting fed.

I look at one of the former leaders facebook of Mosaic.  This former leader has been involved with GCM.  I see that he listed many views for religion which I don't know what that means.

[newcreature]

I feel such regret for feeling that way and just attributed my thoughts to my own faults. It is funny, though because I vaguely (I blocked out most of that year) remember people who were overweight were looked down upon. It makes me think that maybe I was just responding to what I was taught.

Kelli

I have no hard and fast statistics to give you, but I know you are not alone in sensing regret. At times I feel regret for my own actions and attitudes, and I especially regret all the time and money I gave to GCI. If you search on the word "regret" in this forum, you will get two full pages of references.

In my opinion, legalism fans the flames of our human weaknesses. I think that churches and religious organizations get into erroroneous teachings when they promote pervasive and invasive accountability and self-examination instead of simply pointing us to the all-sufficient grace of God. What sincere and open-hearted Christian isn't aware of his or her own short-comings? When caught off-guard, they are the very ones who suffer the most when manipulators misuse the scripture to create guilt trips. I think GCI still has a lot of travel agents for those kind of trips.

Regarding obvious issues like obesity or smoking, etc, I remember reading biographies of C. H. Spurgeon and D. L. Moody. They were the Charles Swindoll and the Billy Graham of their day back in the 1800s. Spurgeon smoked a cigar and Moody stoked the embers by reportedly preaching against the evils of tobacco in Spurgeon's presence. Moody was overweight, so Spurgeon retorted: “Mr. Moody, I’ll put down my cigars when you put down your fork.”

(Here is a link that supports my hazy recollection:) http://jameslepine.com/?tag=charles-spurgeon

If I recall, Spurgeon quit smoking years later when he saw his reflection in a store window at Christmas time. It was in God's good time and by God's good grace that He encouraged His child to let go of something and trust in his Father. I don't know if Moody ever put down his fork in his lifetime, but he now enjoys uninterrupted fellowship with his Lord in his heavenly body.

One of my favorite books in the NT is Philippians, and I like the way Paul starts off by saying, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." God began the good work in me (salvation) and He will perfect it (sanctification). That gives me a lot of hope and confidence, even in light of my short-comings.