Mary Knox: A Great Commission Woman (Women Only)

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[blonde]

The link of her talk
http://www.gccweb.org/podcasts/episode-800/a-great-commission-woman.mp3

Wow!

[wastedyearsthere]

In this talk you can see the wrong teaching about how the Church is your family and you have to commit for your whole life to a local body (GCx of course)!  She says to STAY at GCx forever -- to marry, raise children, plant your flag.  She says that GCx will protect you and help you through hard times.   

She goes on and on about how wonderful is GCx -- what about Christ?

To her credit she did say she isn't a Bible teacher and this message demonstrates how this is correct!

It makes me cringe when I hear the cultish talk too (for example saints, sisters, brothers..)

[LucyB]

Knox plainly states that she is not a Bible teacher and doesn't have anything to say. She says the main point of her talk is that people should  stay in the GC, marry GC, raise their families GC. They will learn great truths in GC--just not today, not here today at the Faithwalkers Convention; but someday, surely, if you hang around in GC you will run across somebody who actually IS a Bible teacher and actually does have something to say. It's easy to get so lost in the Nicholas Fehn speaking style, that you miss the message.

(Who is Nicholas Fehn?  Nichoas Fehn is a Saturday Night Live comedian that never has anything to say http://www.hulu.com/watch/11386/saturday-night-live-update-nicolas-fehn)

This was SUPPOSED to be her topic. It was not a mistake or an oversight. She doesn't talk about her relationship with God, developing a prayer life, or being a student of God's word. She talks about staying in the GC. The promise is that if you stay in the GC for 37 years, or however long she has been in, you too, can speak to a national convention with no Bible training, nothing to say, and encourage them to stay in GC--because the distinction of GC is that they teach baptism. Did you know that not all churches teach baptism?  Hmm... I can't think of any church off the top of my head that doesn't teach baptism. I don't quite understand the psychology, but it seems that if you can throw in an obvious big fat lie now and then, and nobody will challenge you or hold you accountable, you have gained control of people's minds. Scary and sad.

[wastedyearsthere]

well said Lucy!

Did you notice what she said about One church many locations?  Alluding to the fact that if you have to move you can find another GCx??

[nelliepooh]

Yes they teach that only those who r baptisef gc are real Christians.  At least that is the only reason I can understand why my family member was rebaptized.

[LucyB]

One church, many locations. You don't move and then find a church, you find the church first. She moved to Ames when she was in college because of the church. She didn't choose Iowa State and look for a church when she got to Ames. And did you notice the old, "If you KNOW me" caveat right at the beginning?

[wastedyearsthere]

I've never been to a church that promotes their church as much as they do.  Other churches might have a class about what a particular church believes.  But to be so egotistical....!!

And she says that there has been criticism in the past about GCx elitism (only ones doing it right).  By the things she says -- you can tell the attitude is still there. 

NOTHING HAS CHANGED.  It is amazing how other churches grown and learn.  This one is still stuck in the 70's.

[Rebekah]

I've never thought about the rebaptizing thing before, but that seems kind of weird, right? It kind of makes it seem like they don't take baptism very seriously. If they did, then why would they baptize someone who's already been baptized? What exactly does baptism mean in GC? Is it different from more mainstream evangelical churches?

[Linda]

I listened to this message last night. It made me very sad. The other thing it did was make me wonder what happened to the Columbia, MO church. So, I pulled out M2Z. Very interesting what happened to that church. Here's the section:

The Columbia Case

Shortly before Bill Taylor's excommunication from the SRF, the local elders of the Blitz group in Columbia, Mo. (Eugene Pressman, who had been led to Christ by Bill in Germany, and Lynn Reed) had decided to disband the group, concluding that it simply was not a New Testament church. The brothers had come to believe that their basis for existing as a separate entity in Columbia was unscriptural - i.e., believing they were "the church" or "the saints" in Columbia to the exclusion of other believers there. Upon realizing that others were just as valid, "we no longer felt compelled to continue," says Eugene, "as if we were the last to uphold the banner." Now free to do as they saw fit, they recognized that their group, for many reasons, wasn't very healthy, and they saw a church across town practicing the body life they desired, as well as being much more stable and a more accurate cross-section of the community. So, most of the Blitz members funneled themselves into this other church, and became active, contributing members of its fellowship.

At the end of August 1976, a six-man team from Ames arrived in Columbia to assess what had gone wrong there and to try to get things right again, remaining through the Labor Day weekend. They determined that the root of the problem was a visit to Columbia by Bill Taylor in April of that year (see footnote 6, page 54). This, however, disregarded the fact that Lynn, Eugene, and others in the Columbia group were already questioning things about the Blitz at the time of Bill's visit, yet even so their fellowship was devoid of any negative comments about Jim McCotter or the Blitz movement as a whole.

Finally, as part of their extensive summer crusade of 1977, Ames sent an evangelistic team led by Dave Gumlia of Kansas City back into Columbia to begin a completely new work there, based on a few loyal members of the original group.

[nelliepooh]

Rebekah from what my family member told me was that they didn't know what baptism was the first time around but I cannot see that being true because I was baptised at the same time.  We went through a class and were brought up knowing what baptism was.  It happened with a realization that he wanted to be a pastor and part of this church.  I don't get it.  They believe one should be baptised once they become a Christian but my family member was a Christian when he was baptised.  I can only think that someone convinced them the first time didn't count for some reason.

[Captain Bible]

I've never thought about the rebaptizing thing before, but that seems kind of weird, right? It kind of makes it seem like they don't take baptism very seriously. If they did, then why would they baptize someone who's already been baptized? What exactly does baptism mean in GC? Is it different from more mainstream evangelical churches?

In campus ministry they often baptize people who have already been baptized. It is always from the prospective that the person didn't mean it before, or is simply "Making a public statement of Faith" In short getting baptized is just the right of passage. I have heard people say "I have already been Baptized why should I do it again"
the answer is most often, "you don't have to but  it is a good way to let people know that something is going on in your life. (you should also invite all your family.)"

[everythingchrist]

I was told after starting at a GC church that I might want to be rebaptised and go over the Gospel again with the pastor because unless I received Christ with them, they don't know that I'm saved.  I had been saved many years and had just moved to another state/town.  This was the beginning of a four-year struggle that resulted in us leaving and hurting.

[AgathaL'Orange]

How strange.  I wonder why sharing your testimony wasn't enough?

[Immortal_Raven]

Testimony wasn't enough because no church outside the GC movement is enough.  Whether it was as an infant, child, teenager, or adult does not matter.  As a Christian, you start at square one in GC.  One of the last straws for me was Rory Whitney's statement that a baby baptism doesn't count at the 2004 Rock Retreat.

-Immortal_Raven

[Question]

"One of the last straws for me was Rory Whitney's statement that a baby baptism doesn't count at the 2004 Rock Retreat."

Infant baptism doesn't count...Maybe I have scripture all wrong, but every account of baptism in the Bible that I have read tells of a person believing then being baptized - Not the other way around. Are you talking about child dedication or actual baptism?

[Linda]

Infant baptism doesn't count.

Please explain what you mean by "doesn't count".

[Rebekah]

Oh, please, let's not get into an argument about infant baptism. I think we can look at the Protestant Reformation if we want to rehash both sides of that issue.

But, you know, maybe it goes back to the Protestant Reformation after all. Their beliefs about baptism are tied up in their beliefs about what makes a "true" Christian, which, for them, excludes people who were baptized as babies, grew up in the Christian faith, but never prayed a specific kind of salvation prayer.

Even more than that, it seems that some GC pastors suspected baptisms just because they didn't do them, regardless of how old the baptized person was.

...and now we're back to the elitism problem!

[Linda]

I agree. I don't think we will solve the infant/believer's baptism issue on this forum since it has been going on for centuries.

The thing I was trying to get at is what is the teaching at GC? Do they believe you aren't saved till you are Baptized? 'Cuz then we have a "works righteousness" situation happening.

Personally, I was baptized as an infant. I was re-baptized as a Believer (23 years after I became a Christian so that I could join my local GC church). The second Baptism happened in a Lake on the Fourth of July. It was totally meaningless and done to enable me to join the local church and remove any doubt in my mind that the first Baptism "didn't count" and I needed to do this to be saved. I regret that decision. It was theologically unsound.

[wastedyearsthere]

One thing that GCx does well is salvation not on the basis of works and baptism being an expression or testimony of our new faith in Christ.

I've never known baptism to be linked with salvation at GCx to their credit.

However, it seems that for people that were baptized as babies and want to express their belief in Christ as adults they can be re-baptized.  The problem is the pressure GCx places upon people for baptism along with so many other expressions of our walk with Christ.

[Question]

Infant baptism doesn't count.

Please explain what you mean by "doesn't count".

I simply meant that I don't believe it saves you. I don't disagree with child dedication, but I believe that to be a simple commitment to God that you will raise your child according to biblical principles. That's what I meant by "doesn't count." I apologize if that was confusing.

The thing I was trying to get at is what is the teaching at GC? Do they believe you aren't saved till you are Baptized? 'Cuz then we have a "works righteousness" situation happening.

At baptisms, I always heard "Baptism doesn't save you. It is a sign of your new life in Christ, representing dying to your old self and putting on your new self in Christ.” And when I asked why it was full-immersion baptism, they said “we practice full-immersion baptism because that is how our Lord and Savoir Jesus was baptized, so we follow his example”

Biblically, that is how I see things and throughout my experiences with GC that is how I have seen it practiced. I have never heard someone preach baptism as a way of salvation.