Mary Knox: A Great Commission Woman (Women Only)

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

FYI, not all churches that practice infant baptism believe that it saves you.

[Question]

FYI, not all churches that practice infant baptism believe that it saves you.

I know that... that is why I tried to clarify. I believe in child dedication which is infant baptism done without the belief that it saves you. I was really just trying to ask a question not offend anyone. Sorry.

[Linda]

Time to move to the Moribund Equine?

Just to clarify. Baby dedication is NOT infant baptism without the belief that it saves you.

Not all who baptize infants believe it is a justifying (saving) grace, yet they do believe it is a means of grace. Many believe it is symbolic in the same way that circumcision in the OT was symbolic.

I'm not trying to argue for or against believer's baptism. What I'm really trying to say here is that I doubt that GC leaders have much knowledge of what different Christians believe about Baptism--especially if they don't know that the Lutheran view of infant Baptism differs from the Presbyterian view. Wonder what it says in that secret GCLI book? Anyone know?

[Question]

Time to move to the Moribund Equine?

Just to clarify. Baby dedication is NOT infant baptism without the belief that it saves you.

Not all who baptize infants believe it is a justifying (saving) grace, yet they do believe it is a means of grace. Many believe it is symbolic in the same way that circumcision in the OT was symbolic.

I'm not trying to argue for or against believer's baptism. What I'm really trying to say here is that I doubt that GC leaders have much knowledge of what different Christians believe about Baptism--especially if they don't know that the Lutheran view of infant Baptism differs from the Presbyterian view. Wonder what it says in that secret GCLI book? Anyone know?

I have been reading this site for quite some time, but never posted for this exact reason. I thought today I would be brave and try to start a conversation about something I have honestly thought a lot about over the years. But, wow, I guess conversations don’t actually take place here. Just people telling each other they are wrong. No thank you.

[Linda]

I am NOT trying to tell you that your beliefs on Baptism are wrong. In fact, I lean towards Believer's baptism.

What I was trying to do was draw this to the much broader topic of what GC believes, not what you or I believe. It is difficult to know exactly what GC believes because their beliefs are written in the GCLI teaching that is unavailable to non-GCLI church leaders. This, by the way, is very odd.

I have seen some of the teaching (sent to me by GC leaders) and it is pretty poorly researched and more of just passing on what the group believes without much knowledge or thought about historical Christianity.

Let's assume the best about each other.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I think the GC understanding/teaching on baptism is fuzzy.  It's no wonder we all are confused on it.

[MidnightRider]

I have been reading this site for quite some time, but never posted for this exact reason. I thought today I would be brave and try to start a conversation about something I have honestly thought a lot about over the years. But, wow, I guess conversations don’t actually take place here. Just people telling each other they are wrong. No thank you.

Q, we have an entire section of this forum called "the moribund equine" that is the perfect place to discuss such matters. Post something about infant baptism there and I am sure you will find someone to discuss it with you.

[G_Prince]

Time to move to the Moribund Equine?

Just to clarify. Baby dedication is NOT infant baptism without the belief that it saves you.

Not all who baptize infants believe it is a justifying (saving) grace, yet they do believe it is a means of grace. Many believe it is symbolic in the same way that circumcision in the OT was symbolic.

I'm not trying to argue for or against believer's baptism. What I'm really trying to say here is that I doubt that GC leaders have much knowledge of what different Christians believe about Baptism--especially if they don't know that the Lutheran view of infant Baptism differs from the Presbyterian view. Wonder what it says in that secret GCLI book? Anyone know?

I have been reading this site for quite some time, but never posted for this exact reason. I thought today I would be brave and try to start a conversation about something I have honestly thought a lot about over the years. But, wow, I guess conversations don’t actually take place here. Just people telling each other they are wrong. No thank you.

Which part did she say that you were wrong? Plus, if someone does disagrees with you, why does that matter? It's life; defend your idea and move on.

[Immortal_Raven]

"One of the last straws for me was Rory Whitney's statement that a baby baptism doesn't count at the 2004 Rock Retreat."

Infant baptism doesn't count...Maybe I have scripture all wrong, but every account of baptism in the Bible that I have read tells of a person believing then being baptized - Not the other way around. Are you talking about child dedication or actual baptism?

I'm talking actual baptism here.  For clarification, this is the Lutheran view on Baptism that I was personally baptized in and grew up with.  Rory Whitney, the Howard Stern of GC, blatantly said that the baby thing doesn't count. 

I immediately left the auditorium and went to cool down.  But he basically said that my parents loving me so much that they had me baptized as an infant and promising to God, the church, the world and myself to raise me as a believer in Christ did not count.  I've got nothing against adult baptism, absolutely nothing against the act itself.  But don't tell me that my parents' love for me didn't count.

As for the Howard Stern comment, here's what I mean.  Howard Stern says something controversial and offensive so that people will pay attention to him and listen to what he has to to say.  Same thing with Rory Whitney and also Tom Short.  They say something, everyone is shocked and awed, but the reality is that they're primarily full of hot air and some other less than savory things.

-Immortal_Raven

[nelliepooh]

From what i learned in GC is that baptism is a thing that is supposed to be done soon after a person becomes a christian by accepting christ and it is a way to show others of their faith and share their testomony and desire to live like christ and thus become baptised.  My problem is that the baptism of my family member was done at age 10-12.  Old enough to be choosing to be a christ follower and his life never really fell off track with god, he just came to the belief at a faithwalkers retreat i believe that he wanted to be a pastor and was baptised during that retreat.  He came to tell the family only after the retreat and changing his major in college (he still got the first major, but their second major changed from pre-law to education so that he could be educated in how to teach people, not like teach school, but disciple others).  For me it illustrates the bad values of the church just like this message from this woman.

[Linda]

Just to clarify, he was on a retreat, was baptized, came home, and then told his parents? This was a minor child, on a retreat and his parents were not involved in this decision or there to watch the baptism?

[wastedyearsthere]

I personally was witness to some baptisms of children where parents were not notified or informed.  They wanted it that way because they worried about the parents saying no to the baptisms!

I'm ashamed looking back on this.  But it seemed "right" at the time

[Linda]

Really. That is evidence that GC interferes between parents and their minor children. Parents: BEWARE.

[TruthSeeker]

From what i learned in GC is that baptism is a thing that is supposed to be done soon after a person becomes a christian by accepting christ and it is a way to show others of their faith and share their testomony and desire to live like christ and thus become baptised.  My problem is that the baptism of my family member was done at age 10-12.  Old enough to be choosing to be a christ follower and his life never really fell off track with god, he just came to the belief at a faithwalkers retreat i believe that he wanted to be a pastor and was baptised during that retreat.  He came to tell the family only after the retreat and changing his major in college (he still got the first major, but their second major changed from pre-law to education so that he could be educated in how to teach people, not like teach school, but disciple others).  For me it illustrates the bad values of the church just like this message from this woman.

Just to clarify, he was on a retreat, was baptized, came home, and then told his parents? This was a minor child, on a retreat and his parents were not involved in this decision or there to watch the baptism?

I think that nelliepooh's family member was not a child when he decided to get re-baptized, possibly when he was in college.

[nelliepooh]

correct, he was in college and away from home.

[Rebekah]

Ha! Raven, You are so right about the Howard Stern-ishness of some GC pastors! Pat Sokoll is like that too.

They try to shock and awe you so you'll pay attention--and know how different they are from any other pastor you've listened to. It's like a masculinity thing too. None of that liberal (feminine) shades of gray for these bad *** truth-tellers!

I think it's also why they talk about sex so much from the pulpit and occasionally swear.