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Author Topic: More Thoughts on Ravi and Predators in General  (Read 2606 times)
Huldah
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« on: February 18, 2021, 03:56:22 pm »

Jesus warned us very clearly that there would be ravenous wolves in the church. He left us in no doubt. He warned us that even believers can be deceived.

Yet, the church in general persists in thinking that all the wolves are out there, among the obvious cults, not in here with the saints. Paul told the Ephesians, "I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock." This isn't even a new problem; in 1 Samuel, we read about the sons of Eli demanding sex from the women who served at the entrance of the Tabernacle. So after three thousand years of Biblical warnings, why are believers caught off guard when it happens?

I've often wondered what we can and should do to protect our ewes and lambs better. In my entire life, I've never heard a sermon or attended a Bible study that taught potential victims to recognize when they're being groomed. I've never been to a church that did background checks on nursery workers or AWANA teachers (although I've heard that some do). Would it be going too far to expect every church to do this?

In relation to Ravi himself, I wonder what red flags may have been ignored. Those close to him knew that he traveled with a personal masseuse, and that he owned a spa that specialized in Ayurvedic (Hindu) treatments, but this information was unknown to the vast majority of his supporters around the world. Moody Radio knew at some point that Ravi was misrepresentinghis academic credentials, and yet they continued to air his program. So, obviously, we can't trust Big Evangelicalism like Moody to be our gatekeepers.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 08:10:04 pm by Huldah » Logged
Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2021, 06:09:27 pm »

Yes, he definitely was acting in gross sin as a ravenous wolf.  I wonder if there were a number of red flags about his life and ministry in recent years that believers around him ignored.  Perhaps those who learned many of his credentials were quite exaggerated should have been openly public about it. Perhaps, they should have removed him from the ministry for atleast a period of time when his seduction of “sexting” with the Canadian woman was documented.  I personally do not like it when the church feels the need to hide bad things about its own leaders; and organizations and denominations about their very hypocritical public Christian leaders.  Perhaps there is too much reliance on position and celebrity even in Christianity than on Christ and His Truth.  Confirmation of such sins are much better coming openly from the church, than the world having to expose it.  Bravo to Christianity Today for reporting on earlier stories and this one about him.  

Speaking of which, CT just broke this important news about CMA’s action with him.  

Ravi Zacharias was best known for the apologetics ministry that bears his name, but he spent his 46-year career licensed as a national evangelist with the Christian and Missionary Alliance (CMA). The denomination has now revoked the ordination of its highest-profile minister after its own limited investigation confirmed a “pattern of predatory behavior.”

In a public statement, the CMA acknowledged “with great sorrow” that Zacharias “engaged in a pattern of sinful behavior that has caused enormous pain to many and undermined the witness of Christ’s Church.” The CMA also announced that itinerant ministers will now report to a district office rather than be licensed nationally, a move intended to offer more accountability.
-Christianity Today, 2/19/21

Glad to hear CMA is taking serious action.  God’s honor and glory come before reputation.  I wish GCx would do the same regarding the False Teaching and Spiritually Abusive Practices Jim McCotter inflicted on his people.  It seems atleast 40,000 in their ranks at one time that he has spiritually ravaged by his influence.

Regarding GCx, I’m betting their many great exaggerations and falsehoods struck a chord when you read about Ravi’s puffing himself up.  This was and still seems to be the modus operandi for GCx leaders and churches to promote themselves and the work they are doing.  They have significantly exaggerated the truth, and they don’t tell the real story or history.  They have convinced Wikipedia to delete many portions of their real story.  They, in a sense, try to delete whatever we tell you on this site that we’ve experienced there by wrongfully and falsely accusing us.  This is a great example of why believers should listen when there is more than one witness to serious offenses on the part of Christian leader(s).  You can start asking important questions and verify the facts with others to learn that these things are so.  Don’t hold your hands over your ears.  It will just make it more painful if you deny the truth even longer.

The timing of Beth Moore’s comment below is no accident.

“Other elements may vary but I believe to my bones this is the bottom line in every situation where a Christian leader has lived in gross hypocrisy, carrying on a double life, for years on end:
They are out of fellowship with Jesus. Period. YOU CANNOT SUSTAIN THAT IN FELLOWSHIP.”
-Beth Moore, “Twitter”, 2/12/21


Does that remind you of anyone else we’ve warned you about on here?

« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 09:40:36 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Huldah
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2021, 08:09:14 pm »

Regarding GCx, I’m betting their many great exaggerations and falsehoods struck a chord when you read about Ravi’s puffing himself up.  This was and still seems to be the modus operandi for GCx leaders and churches to promote themselves and the work they are doing.  They have significantly exaggerated the truth, and they don’t tell the real story or history.  They have convinced Wikipedia to delete many portions of their real story.

Anyone can edit Wikipedia. GCx doesn't have to convince the site to delete anything, since they or their supporters can change whatever they want. Of course, anyone else can go and change it back, but then it becomes a question of which side is most determined to outlast the other.

“Other elements may vary but I believe to my bones this is the bottom line in every situation where a Christian leader has lived in gross hypocrisy, carrying on a double life, for years on end: They are out of fellowship with Jesus. Period. YOU CANNOT SUSTAIN THAT IN FELLOWSHIP.”
-Beth Moore, “Twitter”, 2/12/21

I very much agree with Beth Moore on this. It also boggles my mind that Ravi appears not to have expressed any sense of guilt or remorse even when he knew he was terminally ill. How does a believer harden his own heart when he's facing his own imminent death?

Here's another thought: I'm tired of people comparing sexual predators in the church to King David. They're not like David. When David was finally confronted by Nathan, he confessed and repented immediately. He didn't complain about how unfair his punishment was. He also didn't abandon Bathsheba to her fate after ruining her life, or blame her for his own actions, or tell people she was a liar out to ruin his reputation; he compensated her for the losses he had inflicted on her in a way that fit with the laws and culture of his day.

Perhaps a better comparison than King David would be Lot. We never once read about Lot doing anything right, courageous, or unselfish. And yet, Scripture refers to him as a righteous man. I take that to mean he was a genuine believer, even though the only incidents in his life that God has revealed to us are those where he sinned in disgusting ways.

I still think it's up to churches to develop policies and procedures that will protect women and children. That should include a policy not to put predators back into positions of authority once their predatory actions have been confirmed.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2021, 10:14:21 pm »

Agree, Huldah, that RZ’s more recent double-life is not like King David.  Doesn’t seem similar in the sin or the repentance (or lack thereof).

True, confirmed predators should not be put back in authority in the church.  Very much agree there should be protections of the victim’s reputations, not the predator.  The Non Disclosure Agreement seems to have no place in a church.  It might serve as a wall to hide abuse behind.  Why did those agreements come into the church anyway?  I actually read somewhere not to join a church that uses those.  Sounds like that might be a wise idea.  

I remember it was revealed that GCx leaders had other leaders sign one who would have been aware of MD’s abusive behavior.  How telling is that?  

Did they also sign one regarding McCotter or the GCx Organization?  Just don’t get the lack of transparency regarding the truth about McCotter.  Or should I say “cover-up”?

I think Willow Creek leaders also signed an NDA, which contributed to Hybels’ cover-up.



« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 09:04:48 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Huldah
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2021, 07:00:07 am »

Did they also sign one regarding McCotter or the GCx Organization?  Just don’t get the lack of transparency regarding the truth about McCotter.  Or should I say “cover-up”?

An even more disturbing possibility is that they don't think there's anything to cover up. Their 50th anniversary video makes it clear that McCotter is still considered a hero and a role model.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2021, 12:34:02 pm »

Regarding GCx, I’m betting their many great exaggerations and falsehoods struck a chord when you read about Ravi’s puffing himself up.  This was and still seems to be the modus operandi for GCx leaders and churches to promote themselves and the work they are doing.  They have significantly exaggerated the truth, and they don’t tell the real story or history.  They have convinced Wikipedia to delete many portions of their real story.

Anyone can edit Wikipedia. GCx doesn't have to convince the site to delete anything, since they or their supporters can change whatever they want. Of course, anyone else can go and change it back, but then it becomes a question of which side is most determined to outlast the other.

“Other elements may vary but I believe to my bones this is the bottom line in every situation where a Christian leader has lived in gross hypocrisy, carrying on a double life, for years on end: They are out of fellowship with Jesus. Period. YOU CANNOT SUSTAIN THAT IN FELLOWSHIP.”
-Beth Moore, “Twitter”, 2/12/21

I very much agree with Beth Moore on this. It also boggles my mind that Ravi appears not to have expressed any sense of guilt or remorse even when he knew he was terminally ill. How does a believer harden his own heart when he's facing his own imminent death?

Here's another thought: I'm tired of people comparing sexual predators in the church to King David. They're not like David. When David was finally confronted by Nathan, he confessed and repented immediately. He didn't complain about how unfair his punishment was. He also didn't abandon Bathsheba to her fate after ruining her life, or blame her for his own actions, or tell people she was a liar out to ruin his reputation; he compensated her for the losses he had inflicted on her in a way that fit with the laws and culture of his day.

Perhaps a better comparison than King David would be Lot. We never once read about Lot doing anything right, courageous, or unselfish. And yet, Scripture refers to him as a righteous man. I take that to mean he was a genuine believer, even though the only incidents in his life that God has revealed to us are those where he sinned in disgusting ways.

I still think it's up to churches to develop policies and procedures that will protect women and children. That should include a policy not to put predators back into positions of authority once their predatory actions have been confirmed.

Yes, that's right. Anyone can edit Wikipedia....

Yes, it baffles me too, how a believer can continue in a sin stubbornly, and not come forward, especially a leader. But I can understand how Ravi would not want to confess this. (Not that I agree with that). His ministry was a huge success.... He could have thought that if he confessed it, it would destroy a lot of what he built up. BTW, which wasn't at that point just him.... Many others were working with that ministry. So, he would have realized that if he came forward, it would destroy his ministry, which now it is doing. (Again, I'm not saying that he shouldn't have done so, but just that it is understandable). The consequences for him coming forward are far greater than for another person.... So, he kept quiet.

On top of that, he's from a shame based culture. In a shame based culture, you don't bring up your shame.... This is very different than a guilt based culture, like a western culture.... People just don't do this. It's very hard for most people to understand what it means to live in another culture, unless you have done that for years....

I think he should have confessed it to his leadership board.... Stepped down as the head of that ministry and have someone else take over.... And then work out the guilt with each of the victims.... It would be a nasty situation, but "He who confesses sins will find mercy!"
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2021, 10:21:16 pm »

Huldah, some long-standing or national leaders do appear to be disturbingly blinded about McCotter in their Jubilee Video.  Their judgement of character is in serious question.  They obviously are biblically ignorant or denying what the Word says about False Teachers because that is EXACTLY how he conducted himself in regard to the GCx Group of Churches he put himself over.  Those who come to that kind of “blind” conclusion about McCotter’s teachings and practices have NO biblical support for being an overseer in the body of Christ.  

As we have seen and heard, the primary qualification for a GCx elder or ‘pastor’ was to bow to McCotter, and his discipled leaders.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 10:23:23 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2021, 10:32:14 pm »


By the way, here’s an article from The Gospel Coalition on NDA’s in the church.  I did learn that it is more common than I thought for Christian Organizations and Churches to have NDA’s.  The recommendation they made to avert hiding abuse through these agreements was to include clauses, for which they gave examples, to protect victims.

 
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/should-christians-sign-non-disclosure-agreements/
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 09:08:39 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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Huldah
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2021, 11:32:00 am »

Those who come to that kind of “blind” conclusion about McCotter’s teachings and practices have NO biblical support for being an overseer in the body of Christ.  

As we have seen and heard, the primary qualification for a GCx elder or ‘pastor’ was to bow to McCotter, and his discipled leaders.


Janet, I read the NDA article you linked to, and then I read a couple more of the articles on that site. One of them contained the following comment about false teachers:

"Adoring new fans may emerge to subsidize their false teaching or abusive behaviors, but the internet will not allow them to silence all past victims."

No doubt that will resonate with you just as it did with me.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 02:27:46 pm by Huldah » Logged
Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2021, 06:43:09 pm »

Yes ma’am, Huldah!  I highlighted that clip below.  God has certainly given a wonderful platform for multiple witnesses to speak out about their real experience with “untouchable” leaders.  Who knows, it may be part of his plan to give opportunity for predators (including False Teachers) to humble themselves and make things right with their brothers and sisters in Christ before Jesus returns?  It certainly is helpful in learning which churches and leaders to avoid when they are rightfully and appropriately exposed online.
 
Praise God we have a voice here after being in an darkened environment where it’s “ungodly” or “rebellious” or “sinful” to shed light on the truth about oppression and lies transpiring in GCx Churches.

Thank you.  I found the article you quoted a line from so helpful that I have clipped more below.  I also found that line about switching “identities” to evade scrutiny especially pertinent to GCx and McCotter’s activities in their frequent need to change names.


We live in a time when digital publishing has helped... courageous victims tell the truth.  ...new media have changed the landscape and shifted power toward the abused.

The world loves its heroes, but it’s also learning to believe victims, now that we’ve heard from more and more of them. Abusers may be able to switch towns, change churches, and start new ministries, but the internet will not allow them to evade scrutiny. Adoring new fans may emerge to subsidize their false teaching or abusive behaviors, but the internet will not allow them to silence all past victims. ...

There’s only one path from here, and it’s the one the Savior showed us. “Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.” (Phil. 2:3-4).


https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/ravi-zacharias-judgment-god/


God is compassionate in still giving GCx Leaders and McCotter time to get things right with their brothers and sister in Christ while they have opportunity.


« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 08:38:47 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2021, 12:54:11 pm »

I’m behind on reading and processing these posts, but wanted to share this link on NDAs.

Christians confess their sin. They don’t cover up sin.

It is the sin itself that harms individuals and ministries. It is not the confessing of sin that harms.

http://www.dianelangberg.com/2021/02/non-disclosure-agreements-ndas-and-the-body-of-christ/
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Huldah
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2021, 05:50:50 pm »

A video came up in my YouTube feed this afternoon from a channel I've never heard of. The channel is called Speak Life, and I know nothing about the channel, nor about the speaker or his theology. I just know that this is hands-down the best Biblical analysis I've seen yet concerning Ravi Zacharias. It's called "Ravi Zacharias is Amnon." Amnon, of course, was David's son, who raped his sister, Tamar.

The speaker makes the point that it wasn't just Amnon who committed a crime against Tamar, but that he was aided and abetted by a "nexus of evil," that is, people without whom he could never have committed the crime or gotten away with it. The comparisons to RZIM are spot on (and also remind me of certain parts of the MD situation).

At about the three-quarter mark, he also has some things to say about NDAs in a Christian context.

If you have some time, it's well worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuOoXZ6RSPg
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Linda
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2021, 09:04:15 pm »

That message was excellent! Thanks for the link.
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