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Author Topic: My understanding of the Great (C)ommission:  (Read 37226 times)
Boggs
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« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2018, 08:03:56 am »

This stuff was still around in 2008 in my church. The worst example we experienced was a pastor asking my wife and I to meet with a couple and report back to him if we thought they should be married. We did it, much to my regret today. If the pastor had concerns about whether he should marry them, he needed to deal with them directly and not ask us to insert ourselves into their relationship.

Our own relationship had to go through so many stupid hoops - both of us meeting with a pastor, seeking counsel from friends who had already passed their relationship scrutiny process, seeking counsel from parents. Had to be at a certain point in our spiritual maturity to date "the right way." When we were in it that seemed natural and healthy. Now I'd still say it's a good idea to seek counsel for big decisions, but the church shouldn't force you into a particular counselling/approval process for your relationship. I'd also say that seeking counsel is much more appropriate for "I'm thinking about marrying this person" than "I think I want to date this person."
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 08:05:43 am by Boggs » Logged
Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2018, 08:09:01 am »

Huldah, this stuff has not been around since the late 90's, and I doubt it was around before then as well. 
So I'm lying? Or hallucinating? Or what? What an astounding thing for you to say.

Just because something may be true, or was your perception of what was really happening, does not mean it is no longer gossip.  It is gossip and speculation to say something like "it is not farfetched to believe that some of the same mentality has persisted". 
Well, then, I suppose history is gossip. Biographies are gossip. Pointing out legitimate problems of any kind is gossip, even if you don't give names or specific details. You're grasping at straws, GTA.

The reason I wrote, "...it is not farfetched to believe that some of the same mentality has persisted," is that I've read so many complaints similar to my own, from people who were there long after I was.  Like I said, I'm glad if your church doesn't have any of these problems. I'll take your word for that. But I know what I saw and I know what was happening around me.


Hulda

I meant that since I was not seeing this stuff in the late 90's, I doubt is magically changed in the couple years prior to me being there.  So it would be safe to say probably at least since the mid to early 90's this stuff was not occurring

History is not gossip, biographies are not gossip.  That is not what is going on here. Opinions are not legitimate problems.  Opinions are clouded by perceptions, emotions, and prejudices. Complaining on a website for years and years and years of issues....I don't know what to call it then except people looking for validation, that Biblicly , we should not be seeking.  If it is not gossip, then I recommend that everyone go through everything they have ever posted, and delete posts that are  full on gossip, because there is plenty of it.  And do a study...find every verse having to do with gossip and slander.  It is eye opening.  I started doing this with one of my kids, as she came home after being with some friends, and told me of something someone said or did.  We had an amazing talk about gossip, and then pulled out a Bible and wanted to see what God had to say on the matter.  Personally I had never done a search specifically on the the topic of gossip.  It was mind blowing.  We sat with our eyes wide and in awe of how serious this issue is. How dangerous the tongue is.  God has so many warnings about slander and gossip, because Satan uses it, it is a powerful weapon!!  
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Boggs
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« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2018, 08:10:52 am »

I'm kind of struggling to summarize how relationships are tangled up in the overall authority and political system of the church. It's not just about whether you should date someone, or marry someone. It's a big way to prove that you are doing things the Right Way. Wait for a relationship in the Right Way, have a relationship in the Right Way, and you'll be lifted up as a good example and have more opportunities as a core member. Do it the wrong way and you'll be disqualified from a lot of leadership and ministry work.

For example, in our college church someone who dated the wrong way - e.g. dating casually, dating people outside the church, not jumping through hoops before dating someone - would not be asked to lead small groups, or worship, or to be on the core leadership team. They'd be stuck on the periphery.
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Huldah
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« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2018, 08:12:51 am »

We're not giving you our opinions in this thread, GTA. We're telling you as eyewitnesses what happened in our churches. And according to some of the newer & younger GC folks, it continued to happen well into the 2000's.

Like it or not, this is the history of GC.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 08:14:34 am by Huldah » Logged
Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2018, 08:15:05 am »


Yes, this stuff is still going on, because it is BIBLICAL.  


Wait, wait, wait? It's still going on? Even though it never happened to begin with? I'm confused.

I will repost what I wrote...in this particular matter, in how it was described is still happening because it is biblical. Differentstrokes complained about an answer she received from her small group leader after she asked how come everyone else is getting married but her...  Hulda....do you believe this is biblical, or wrong??  If you feel this insight below is wrong, that is strictly your opinion and nothing else.

Yes, this stuff is still going on, because it is BIBLICAL.  Maybe your small group leader could have been more sensitive in how it was worded to you, maybe could have giving you some more help in this area?  I was an "older" single comparatively, and I was so absolutely content in my walk with God, and in life, because I had grasped that my identity comes from Christ alone.  My worth was in Christ alone.  When I came to that point in my life, it was such a sweet time of such peace.  I am actually thankful for that time, I learned so much, and made my walk with the Lord so much richer.  I no longer needed to worry, or feel discontent with being single.  It was so freeing.  I did not need a man to validate me.  I just served the Lord and I finally gave all the control to God.  I made a list of qualities (30 to be exact) I wanted in a spouse, and let God have that list.  And eventually God brought that man into my life, and every single item on my list was met in this man.  Every single item.  And do you know what initially attracted us to each other?  Each others willingness to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters, to serve others, to love others, as God commands. 

Your small group leader gave you truth...you were complaining about your discontentment of being single (I am not saying that singles should never have this struggle, or occasionally struggling is a sign of immaturity) but asking someone why others around you are getting married, and you are not...were you just looking for some validation ("it is okay sister, I am sure some day it will be your turn because you are amazing"), or an honest answer??  This leader gave you some some things in your life that you could grow in before you got married, gave you ideas of what would be better to focus on, not terrible advice?  We people get so easily offended that we can't hear.  Why, because our validation is coming from people, not Christ  (see a theme here with my other post)?
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Differentstrokes
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« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2018, 08:17:51 am »

Oh gta, i feel sad for you that you believe thats what god wants for us. People should desire marriage, its the way we are designed and trying to train people to fight that is simply fighting our nature. I am really happy I didn't take her advice to heart, and I met my husband and am really happy now!
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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2018, 08:26:04 am »

I'm kind of struggling to summarize how relationships are tangled up in the overall authority and political system of the church. It's not just about whether you should date someone, or marry someone. It's a big way to prove that you are doing things the Right Way. Wait for a relationship in the Right Way, have a relationship in the Right Way, and you'll be lifted up as a good example and have more opportunities as a core member. Do it the wrong way and you'll be disqualified from a lot of leadership and ministry work.

For example, in our college church someone who dated the wrong way - e.g. dating casually, dating people outside the church, not jumping through hoops before dating someone - would not be asked to lead small groups, or worship, or to be on the core leadership team. They'd be stuck on the periphery.

Boggs, this statement seems odd to me.  Was being in leadership the goal?  Was that bringing validation to people, to yourself?  Were people trying to please man and not God?  I could care less if I am in leadership or not...it has no bearing on my worth.  I have been in leadership, and have not (by choice).  And I feel the same no matter what I am doing.  I don't feel more valuable, I don't feel my pastors care more for me or less for me depending on my roles within the church.

This is a hunch, but I feel like this validation issue plays heavily into people who were hurt by the church.  Finding your identity in men rather than Christ will set up many to be deeply hurt and offended by man.  I have learned people will offend us in life, people will judge us, especially as a Christian.  But I have learned that it does not matter.  I don't really care what others think, because my identity is not found in people, it is found in Christ.  Now in case someone wants to twist what I say, I will clarify and say that I deeply care how I impact others, and I do what I can to not be offensive to others, believers and non-believers alike, to share Christ- like love in the best ways I am able, especially with the lost.   But we will still be judged, and I am perfectly okay with that, because I know who I am in Christ.  
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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2018, 08:28:36 am »


I meant that since I was not seeing this stuff in the late 90's, I doubt is magically changed in the couple years prior to me being there.  So it would be safe to say probably at least since the mid to early 90's this stuff was not occurring

History is not gossip, biographies are not gossip.  That is not what is going on here. Opinions are not legitimate problems.  Opinions are clouded by perceptions, emotions, and prejudices. Complaining on a website for years and years and years of issues....I don't know what to call it then except people looking for validation, that Biblicly , we should not be seeking.  If it is not gossip, then I recommend that everyone go through everything they have ever posted, and delete posts that are  full on gossip, because there is plenty of it.  And do a study...find every verse having to do with gossip and slander.  It is eye opening.  I started doing this with one of my kids, as she came home after being with some friends, and told me of something someone said or did.  We had an amazing talk about gossip, and then pulled out a Bible and wanted to see what God had to say on the matter.  Personally I had never done a search specifically on the the topic of gossip.  It was mind blowing.  We sat with our eyes wide and in awe of how serious this issue is. How dangerous the tongue is.  God has so many warnings about slander and gossip, because Satan uses it, it is a powerful weapon!!  

When do you think it is Ok to tell something you've experienced or something a trusted friend told you?


It depends on the intent of the conversation.  This forum is not that place. 
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Huldah
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« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2018, 08:30:17 am »

I'm kind of struggling to summarize how relationships are tangled up in the overall authority and political system of the church. It's not just about whether you should date someone, or marry someone.
This entanglement of doctrines, rules, and expectations is a big part of what makes it so hard to explain the GC experience to outsiders. When I was researching my old sermon notes for my "unity trumps truth" post (I'll add the link here when I find it), I couldn't help but notice the way key points of doctrine and practice were hammered at over and over, until they just automatically became part of how you processed your life. For example, if you suddenly noticed someone in leadership doing or saying something that seemed unBiblical, all the teaching on submission or the evils of grumbling was instantly there in your mind to quench the Spirit.

EDIT: Found the link. It's here: forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/i-don't-understand-this-website/msg16271/#msg16271.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 09:12:25 am by Huldah » Logged
Huldah
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« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2018, 08:31:58 am »

It depends on the intent of the conversation.  This forum is not that place. 
Of course it is.
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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2018, 08:32:46 am »

Oh gta, i feel sad for you that you believe thats what god wants for us. People should desire marriage, its the way we are designed and trying to train people to fight that is simply fighting our nature. I am really happy I didn't take her advice to heart, and I met my husband and am really happy now!

I don't understand what you are saying that you feel sorry for me?   I did not say people should not desire marriage.  I did not say people should be trained to fight that nature.  Giving this part of my life over to God is wise.  I trusted God for his provision, and was the best thing I could have done.  God wants us to depend on him, to find contentment in him, and then he will bless us with the desires of our hearts.  

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do remember seeing somewhere that your husband is Hindu?  If this is not you, my apologies.  But if this is you, is your husband also a Christian?  
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Differentstrokes
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« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2018, 08:35:28 am »

And you know, I did not find my identity in the church and I think that was part of the problem, I knew who I was and it didn't match up with the churches vision for me, so I was labeled as rebellious and not spiritual enough, and trying to fall in line with the churches plans was like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Once I left and let myself be who I already knew I was, things got better for me ❤❤
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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2018, 08:35:34 am »

It depends on the intent of the conversation.  This forum is not that place. 
Of course it is.

confiding in a trusted sister or brother (or two), to seek out counsel, to get advice, to pray.  This is okay.  This would not be gossip, this is counsel.  But sometimes it can be disguised as counsel, but is really gossip. We need to be careful.  Please just go read what God says on this issue.
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Huldah
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« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2018, 08:37:37 am »

Boggs, this statement seems odd to me.  Was being in leadership the goal?

Yes! Yes! In the early days of GC, being in leadership was the goal (for men), whether you wanted to be a leader or not. My sermon notes from that time are full of statements that all brothers are supposed to become elders eventually. They taught that being an elder (which was the same thing as a pastor) was not a calling, that is, it wasn't a goal only for the few, but the expectation of every male Christian. This was what every brother was to strive for. There was to be no clergy/laity distinction (which was lip service only, because in actual practice, there was a huge distinction between the people in power and the people who had no power). If you weren't on the leadership track, then you were not growing spiritually. Yes. This was the goal, and it was imposed on all the brothers, at least during my time at GC.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't believe leadership-for-every-brother has been the goal at GC for a long time. But the fact that you could ask this question, "Is leadership the goal?", shows how very disconnected you (GTA) are with the history and practices of the movement. Yet, rather bizarrely, you feel competent to tell those of us who were there what really did or didn't happen.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 08:50:15 am by Huldah » Logged
Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2018, 08:39:13 am »

And you know, I did not find my identity in the church and I think that was part of the problem, I knew who I was and it didn't match up with the churches vision for me, so I was labeled as rebellious and not spiritual enough, and trying to fall in line with the churches plans was like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Once I left and let myself be who I already knew I was, things got better for me ❤❤

Your identity should not be in your church, or your churches vision for you, but in Christ Alone.
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Huldah
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« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2018, 08:40:58 am »

GTA. it's clear to me that your definition of "gossip" is basically "any information that shows my church in a worse light than I wish to see it portrayed, even if that information is true and helpful to others who are struggling." I don't think we can have a fruitful or edifying conversation as long as you persist in that mode.
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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2018, 08:41:27 am »

Quote
It depends on the intent of the conversation.  This forum is not that place.  
I wasn't thinking in the context of the forum because I haven't been a part of it.  I was wondering what your thoughts were in general.  Do you have contrasting examples?


confiding in a trusted sister or brother (or two), to seek out counsel, to get advice, to pray.  This is okay.  This would not be gossip, this is counsel.  But sometimes it can be disguised as counsel, but is really gossip. We need to be careful.  Please just go read what God says on this issue.
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Boggs
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« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2018, 08:41:39 am »

I'm kind of struggling to summarize how relationships are tangled up in the overall authority and political system of the church. It's not just about whether you should date someone, or marry someone. It's a big way to prove that you are doing things the Right Way. Wait for a relationship in the Right Way, have a relationship in the Right Way, and you'll be lifted up as a good example and have more opportunities as a core member. Do it the wrong way and you'll be disqualified from a lot of leadership and ministry work.

For example, in our college church someone who dated the wrong way - e.g. dating casually, dating people outside the church, not jumping through hoops before dating someone - would not be asked to lead small groups, or worship, or to be on the core leadership team. They'd be stuck on the periphery.

Boggs, this statement seems odd to me.  Was being in leadership the goal?  Was that bringing validation to people, to yourself?  Were people trying to please man and not God?  I could care less if I am in leadership or not...it has no bearing on my worth.  I have been in leadership, and have not (by choice).  And I feel the same no matter what I am doing.  I don't feel more valuable, I don't feel my pastors care more for me or less for me depending on my roles within the church.

No - being in leadership was not the goal. The goal was to do your best to live as Christ wanted you to live, filtered through the doctrines and practices of the church. Leaders were held as examples of people who were doing things the right way, and as a young person, men to pattern your life after. So if the leaders (pastors, small group leaders, so on) encouraged you to follow a certain path in [relationship/job/friendships/commitments] you'd try to do that. The better you did, the more you'd be asked to do, whether you wanted to do it or simply felt pressured to do it. So do things right long enough and you find yourself in leadership unless you specifically rejected that path. I didn't reject that path.
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Differentstrokes
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« Reply #78 on: March 29, 2018, 08:44:09 am »

I agree, it shouldn't be.
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araignee19
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« Reply #79 on: March 29, 2018, 08:45:12 am »

http://gcxweb.org/Misc/TheCauseAndEffect/CAE-SlanderExamined.aspx
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