New Church Attendee Questions

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

The summer we decided to leave, Terry and I were given some anniversary money to have a custom built wrought iron railing put by our front entry steps. There aren't that many places in town that do custom work, but we found one.

A nice middle aged man showed up to take the measurements and since I enjoy chatting with people, I asked him about how he learned his skill. About halfway through the conversation he said, "I am a self proclaimed apostle."

I about fell over. He was not with GC (I asked who he was with!). We were amused. He did a very nice job on the railing, so we didn't really care about his religious credentials. So, I guess GC is not the only denomination where apostles abound. Who knew?

[G_Prince]

Dear Curious,

You seem to have some reservations about this church which you haven't stated. Your experience at Walnut Creek seems fairly positive, however here you are posting an inquiry in a fairly obscure chat room. What caused you to search the internet for information on a church which by all accounts seemed healthy and welcoming? Have you heard negative reports from others? the media? How did you find this website? What are your particular concerns with Walnut Creek? Did they spook you in someway? please share.

[JustCurious]

Dear Curious,

You seem to have some reservations about this church which you haven't stated. Your experience at Walnut Creek seems fairly positive, however here you are posting an inquiry in a fairly obscure chat room. What caused you to search the internet for information on a church which by all accounts seemed healthy and welcoming? Have you heard negative reports from others? the media? How did you find this website? What are your particular concerns with Walnut Creek? Did they spook you in someway? please share.

Thanks for the question. I don't have reservations about the church. My questions are to see why others here have reservations. I have attended the church for many months now, and about eight years ago, before I graduated college, I attended the Church in Ames. I was only there for a short while but never found anything disturbing. In fact my faith and biblical knowledge grew more than anytime previous to that.

I'm asking for views about the church because I've traveled down roads before, with people, jobs, churches, etc, and it's frustrating to find that a place/person isn't right for me. I'm frankly tired of church shopping and on top of that it's stressful to attend a church for a few months and later find out it isn't for me. You begin to know people at a church, get semi-connected but then it's time to go and suddenly you're breaking possible ties. I've got all kinds of stories about our church shopping experiences. That would be another post altogether.

I stumbled upon this website, not because I had reservations about the church, but because I always use the internet to gather fact finding information. Yes, that information could lead to negative information but it may lead to positive information as well. If it's negative so be it. If it's positive, great. Anyway, that's how I found this website and it's not so obscure. A simple search for GCM or GCC will find it.

With any church I look for facts about the pastor(s), outreach, controversy, praises, sermons, etc. If I had reservations about the church, I probably wouldn't be attending. That being said, since most people at this website have problems with the church I'm trying to resolve whether those issues pertain to me or not. Are the issues relevant today, are they relevant for just a particular church/pastor or all GCM/GCC altogether? Or, are the issues here similar to the blogs I've read about Republican vs. Democrat and Conservative vs. Liberal where there's partial truth to both sides but everyone agrees to disagree and many feelings are relative.

People hurt people. My sister-in-law attended an E-Free church in the local area for a couple of years. One day the pastor's wife made a statement about one of her kids. To me it was benign but to my sister-in-law she took it personally. Of course, this was her child. From that day forward, anything the pastor's wife said was scrutinized by my sister-in-law. Finally my sister-in-law left the church. My sister-in-law will never attend that church because it is not right for her anymore. For me, that place might be just fine. That's what I'm trying to discover here.

Anyway my next step, which I always do, is to speak to the pastors directly. I've done this to some extent via e-mail but it's time to go face-to-face. I'll ask direct questions and give scenarios. I don't look for the "right" answer but what I look for is accessibility, humility, acceptance of my views, repentance, acknowledgment of problems, the desire to fix problems, and always, they should be able to go to God's word.

No church is perfect. My favorite church to date was an E-Free church where I used to live. In my opinion the pastor wasn't strong enough in voicing his opinions pertaining to God's word, there were a few people there that were too legalistic, there were a few that weren't legalistic enough, and yadda, yadda. Some people challenged me just enough, some too much, and others too little.

However, the Spirit was there, people were growing and I enjoyed every Sunday. The pastors were accessible, prayerful, and studious--we may have disagreed on small areas of doctrine but it was fine. The pastors didn't yell from their soapbox, they were guys I could relate to, and I trusted them. We won't find the perfect church until we meet with Christ in the new heaven and new earth.

Thank you.

[G_Prince]

Thanks for the question. I don't have reservations about the church. My questions are to see why others here have reservations. I have attended the church for many months now, and about eight years ago, before I graduated college, I attended the Church in Ames. I was only there for a short while but never found anything disturbing. In fact my faith and biblical knowledge grew more than anytime previous to that.

I'm asking for views about the church because I've traveled down roads before, with people, jobs, churches, etc, and it's frustrating to find that a place/person isn't right for me. I'm frankly tired of church shopping and on top of that it's stressful to attend a church for a few months and later find out it isn't for me. You begin to know people at a church, get semi-connected but then it's time to go and suddenly you're breaking possible ties. I've got all kinds of stories about our church shopping experiences. That would be another post altogether.

I stumbled upon this website, not because I had reservations about the church, but because I always use the internet to gather fact finding information. Yes, that information could lead to negative information but it may lead to positive information as well. If it's negative so be it. If it's positive, great. Anyway, that's how I found this website and it's not so obscure. A simple search for GCM or GCC will find it.

With any church I look for facts about the pastor(s), outreach, controversy, praises, sermons, etc. If I had reservations about the church, I probably wouldn't be attending. That being said, since most people at this website have problems with the church I'm trying to resolve whether those issues pertain to me or not. Are the issues relevant today, are they relevant for just a particular church/pastor or all GCM/GCC altogether? Or, are the issues here similar to the blogs I've read about Republican vs. Democrat and Conservative vs. Liberal where there's partial truth to both sides but everyone agrees to disagree and many feelings are relative.

People hurt people. My sister-in-law attended an E-Free church in the local area for a couple of years. One day the pastor's wife made a statement about one of her kids. To me it was benign but to my sister-in-law she took it personally. Of course, this was her child. From that day forward, anything the pastor's wife said was scrutinized by my sister-in-law. Finally my sister-in-law left the church. My sister-in-law will never attend that church because it is not right for her anymore. For me, that place might be just fine. That's what I'm trying to discover here.

Anyway my next step, which I always do, is to speak to the pastors directly. I've done this to some extent via e-mail but it's time to go face-to-face. I'll ask direct questions and give scenarios. I don't look for the "right" answer but what I look for is accessibility, humility, acceptance of my views, repentance, acknowledgment of problems, the desire to fix problems, and always, they should be able to go to God's word.

No church is perfect. My favorite church to date was an E-Free church where I used to live. In my opinion the pastor wasn't strong enough in voicing his opinions pertaining to God's word, there were a few people there that were too legalistic, there were a few that weren't legalistic enough, and yadda, yadda. Some people challenged me just enough, some too much, and others too little.

However, the Spirit was there, people were growing and I enjoyed every Sunday. The pastors were accessible, prayerful, and studious--we may have disagreed on small areas of doctrine but it was fine. The pastors didn't yell from their soapbox, they were guys I could relate to, and I trusted them. We won't find the perfect church until we meet with Christ in the new heaven and new earth.

Thank you.

Your investigative fact finding is very wise. Wish I did more of it.  

Part of me wants to tell you that if you feel comfortable at Walnut Creek then OK, maybe it's the church for you. The other part of me want to scream, "Run like heck, and don't look back." I think the answer maybe somewhere in the middle.

I understand that no church is perfect, but some churches have minor issues and other have substantial ones. Many of the imperfections you noted above are common issues found in any church. GCx however has a history of substantial issues which are not simply faults found within the congregation but rather embedded in church policy.

Traditionally GCx has been very authoritarian and cracks down on anyone who might disagree with it's church policies, doctrine...etc. For instance if you let your kids date, you might receive a visit from a pastor rebuking you for letting them get involved in ungodly relationships (this is just the an example from the top of my head). If you refuse to accept your pastor's advice you might find yourself suddenly on the fringes of the church, or even excommunicated in some cases.

Also, be aware that your initial interaction with the congregation is calculated by the church. I have friends who went to Walnut Creek who were often forced via social pressure to meet and greet with every new person who walked though the door. Sure it's a nice policy but it is calculated not genuine. GCx has a history of "love bombing" were the new arrival is fawned over until they commit to the group. Afterwords things can often change.

Sorry I can't provide more specifics on GCx's particular issues. Frankly there are so many that it is impossible to cover them all in a single post. I suggest you visit www.gcxweb.org it is a very resourceful site which tackles many of the major complaints. You also might be interested in the GCM apology letter which can be found on the Wikipedia site. In this letter the movement acknowledges many of the problems discussed on this forum.

I know several people in this forum attended Walnut Creek for many years; perhaps they might chime in on some of the potential pitfalls you may encounter?

All this being said If you like the church, and have had a positive experience with it in the past, I don't see why you shouldn't continue there. Just keep your eyes open. Knowing what you now know, you shouldn't be very susceptible to any potential tactics the church may try to pull.

Also as a side note, I hear Lutheran Church of Hope in west Des Moines is a nice church.

[puff of purple smoke]

Traditionally GCx has been very authoritarian and cracks down on anyone who might disagree with it's church policies, doctrine...etc. For instance if you let your kids date, you might receive a visit from a pastor rebuking you for letting them get involved in ungodly relationships (this is just the an example from the top of my head). If you refuse to accept your pastor's advice you might find yourself suddenly on the fringes of the church, or even excommunicated in some cases.

I would add to this that the most frustrating thing is that you won't notice it right away because they will be putting a lot of effort into getting you plugged into the group. Going out of their way to call you, invite you places, being open to different ideas, and so on. What happened to me, at least, is that after I had been there long enough to form some relationships and become a regular part of the group, they became less hesitant to reveal the more controversial parts of their theology. As time went on I saw more and more, and yet the longer I stayed the harder I found the thought of leaving due to the relationships I had formed. Definitely GC's strength is their focus on relationships, but that can also be used as a weapon to keep you with them, because it is well known among long-time members that if you leave the church you will lose most of not all of your relationships. To GC members, the group is more important than the people in it.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I've heard Lutheran Church of Hope is a great church too.  They have an excellent ministries to the homeless, people with disabilities, and mission trips.  I always think churches that do those things well are doing the work God intended for churches!!  Just my opinion!

[Angry]

No church is perfect.....

.... We won't find the perfect church until we meet with Christ in the new heaven and new earth.

Thank you.

Idea - bring your Bible to the water's edge.  Find a secluded area in a park by a stream.  Read His word.  Close your eyes, think of what you just read.  Breathe deeply.  Take in your surroundings.  Listen to His water babbling.  Listen to His birds chirp.  Feel his breeze in your hair.

Get closer to Him.  A church doesn't need to be brick and mortar.

Just an idea.

Angry

[theresearchpersona]

As to the comments above about "plugging-in" people using relationships, this comes from books that say to do stuff like this "so people won't leave out the back door", saying to "plug them up" this way; people should be meeting in Churches, however, for the worship of God: and they should love one another genuinely...this usually seems absent.

People almost have this idea like "if we show them enough love (toward them) they'll want to want Jesus", too. And in the event it's convenient, your relationships...the pastors will split; for example, you might be in a small group, and because of some scheme they'll split everything, and even take tactics to prevent the groups from having much contact: they'll do everything they can to make the split (they say "multiplication") work, making the new group"s" hang out with separate other small groups, and do different events, and etc..

This kind of thing showed me that the relationships...were highly artificial...and emotional vs. substantial, at least with some people.

[saved]

I'm asking for views about the church because I've traveled down roads before, with people, jobs, churches, etc, and it's frustrating to find that a place/person isn't right for me. I'm frankly tired of church shopping and on top of that it's stressful to attend a church for a few months and later find out it isn't for me. You begin to know people at a church, get semi-connected but then it's time to go and suddenly you're breaking possible ties. I've got all kinds of stories about our church shopping experiences. That would be another post altogether.

I wholeheartedly agree that church shopping stinks.

I have never been to the church in question, and don't even know who the pastors are there, so I have no right to express an opinion one way or another about this particular church.

I attended a GC church that I'd recommend in a heartbeat, and another that I'd stand up and shout, "run away!!!"  It totally depends on the pastors.  Are they humble?  Seeking God?  Or are they letting the power corrupt them?

The other big factor is your personality.  Are you fairly independent?  Is your self-esteem healthy enough to laugh at a ridiculous rebuke?  Then you'll probably be fine.

In the end, my answer is simple... you need to pray and seek God about it.  If He says OK, then go there.  If not, don't.  The counsel of men has value, but only so much... in the end you have to be at peace before God.

[theresearchpersona]

No, I would not evaluate whether to be in a Church or not based on your personality or what you find convenient: but whether they teach the word, handling it accurately (rather than faddishly and deceitfully: even Satan quoted scripture, and MASTERFULLY, remember, to Christ), whether they're truly humble, whether they teach or dodge teaching doctrines, whether they actually obey the command, one of the qualifications for eldership they ignore, to expose and cast down false doctrines: the only type of refuting I ever saw in all of GC, besides easy shots like Mormons, was anyone who dared begin asserting that Scripture, and not the pastors who set themselves into opposition against it, had the final say in the matters of the Church.

And going to them is what they want: by that they either explain-away the criticisms, or figure-out who to say "it's okay, we love you, you can leave [silently]". This was one of the ways to begin seeing through the "love" of these pastors; just as one joking about how they all used to call their critics "enemies" (and the audience laughing) showed through it; or how they'd make jokes to get everyone laughing about anyone that "pointed out that we aren't perfect" (trivializing any criticism), or telling us all not to dare bring concerns to pastors nor tell other members, "don't be horizontal", but to instead give our "anxiety" to God in prayer (then abusing the verse about giving all our anxieties to God): I utterly HATED the way these men abused Scripture all for their own ends...not for the actual edification of the Sheep: they POISON the sheep, subtly, and not so subtly; and it appears as if they think they're doing God's work in it.

[DrSam]

Besides preaching the truth of the scriptures I would say that:

1. The level of brokenness/humility of the leadership is quite important. I've seen orthodox churches with pastors who preach the Bible better than most and yet that pastor is clinical and/or arrogant. I don't want a walking Bible. I want a walking Jesus.

2. The level of spiritual maturity measured by how advanced is the man in being what the scriptures call a "father." True fathers have balance, patience, grace, firmness, unconditional love, wisdom, etc. I don't care to be in a church where the leader is a youth. Youth tends to be unbalanced, untried, dogmatic, arrogant, insensitive, etc.

[Linda]

Just Curious,
Here is a quote from Rick Whitney's web page notes from his 2005 talk on loyalty at the Pastor's Conference. According to his notes, he is holding up a copy of the Statement of Errors as he says this:

I recognize that some of you are here today because of the strength of this excellent paper.  It showed a certain humility and a willingness to admit our mistakes.  
   
But if in your eyes, this is the paper that best describes our history, it would be overly self-deprecating.  God was with us in the beginning and God is with us today.  He led us then and He wants to lead us now.

God has greatly blessed us, men.

He goes on:

If we don’t understand this in our heart, then in our heart’s we will eventually feel like a spectator.  And then inevitably, a critic.  
   
   - the Cause  photo.    Is there not a cause?  Could it have been an honor to be accused of being a cult, those many years ago?  Did we have something then, that may have been lost over the years?

I read the other day, concerning revivals, that, “In any awakening or revival, the first person to wake up is the Devil.”  So too the devil took note of what we were doing.  I hope he notices us now.
 
Persecution became very real in those early days. But we did not really worry about it, because we knew in Whom we believed and we knew that we could entrust our lives and future and reputation to Him.
God delivered us. And He is delivering us still.

When you walk through battles together, God unites hearts. He united our hearts in a special way. The Lord used our persecutions and our shared trials to fiercely unite us.
 
Not only within each of our churches, but between our different churches, between our fellowships scattered now across many states.  

Jim McCotter, a good friend to many and an early leader in this movement’s history, said the following.  It was right in the middle of a wave of very difficult persecution, that we were all facing together.  

I will never forget Jim’s words.  Even though we were being attacked, Jim saw beyond the attack, and looked ahead down the road.  

Jim said, “Join us!  If you chose not to, you will still hear about us.  What God is going to do through us.  In good report and evil report.  And you will say to yourself, ‘I once knew them.’”
   
Recently, talking with Nelson Guerra, I heard his glowing memory of those early years.  His comment was, “God really did give us something, didn’t He, Rick?”

First of all, just how serious is an apology when the person apologizing says it was a little too self deprecating? A humble apology is by nature self-deprecating.

Then, he says he wants to get back to what they had in the days when they were called a cult. Amazing and frightening.

When you read the testimonies of the various excommunications, you understand that GC talks a lot about loyalty and commitment to the "band of brothers", but the reality of that is that the commitment is highly conditional. (We are committed to you, as long as you are committed to us and always agree with us.)

Elders are committed to each other until one challenges a teaching. Only the top guns get to challenge other elders. Reading those transcripts, it was obvious that all manner of accusations could be made by McCotter and his cronies about men lower down the food chain. Talk about slander. Talk about listening to "bad reports".

Read what C. S. Lewis writes about the "inner ring" and you will understand this system.

My belief is that a number of the current elders truly got saved in a GC church. Unfortunately, many were young and impressionable and fell under the spell of McCotter who obviously was a very charismatic fellow. As a result, their theology was formed with a deep McCotter twist. They then went on to perpetuate the these twists because they knew nothing else. Since McCotter told them unity was more important than truth, nothing could ever be questioned (privately or publicly-the Bill Taylor excommunication transcript is proof of this).

As a result, they have developed a corporate pride (God gave US something special), they have mistreated fellow Christians (as far as I know they never took back any excommunications), they have bad mouthed people who are trying to help them see their error (they call us "detractors" and refer to our comments as "persecution").

I really believe most people attending GC churches have no idea of any of this. It saddens me greatly to think of all the students heading to Faithwalkers next week who will be listening to men as they try to indoctrinate young people (who just want to get together with some other Christians for a couple days, learn about God, and maybe find a spouse--perfectly fine reasons!) into the ways of this "movement."

They state on their web page:

The concept of the Faithwalkers conference came from the desire to connect young men and women of this movement with the older men who have been doing this almost from the beginning, and give them a chance to hear those men’s stories of faith, to benefit from these men’s life experiences, and to learn from men who have been in the arena all these years, who aren’t going to quit. The conference provided a way to continue to pass on the core beliefs that have made this movement what it is today.

[EverAStudent]

The concept of the Faithwalkers conference came from the desire to connect young men and women of this movement with the older men who have been doing this almost from the beginning, and give them a chance to hear those men’s stories of faith, to benefit from these men’s life experiences, and to learn from men who have been in the arena all these years, who aren’t going to quit. The conference provided a way to continue to pass on the core beliefs that have made this movement what it is today.

Fascinating Linda!  

Some quick thoughts:
1) they still call their denomination "a movement," though clearly it stopped being such many years ago.  Is this a break with reality, or just a wish for what no longer is?

2) it is frightening that they refer to connecting young folks with those who have been around since the beginning, for they are not referring to transfering the core beliefs and values of the founders of the Christian faith, but of the men who "have made this movement what it is today."  

Linda, I get your concern.  Today, in 2008-2009, GCx actually advertises that they want to teach to teens what Jim McCotter, Dennis Clark, Whitney, Hopler, and the others believed and practiced when they founded GCI.  

To JustCurious.  This advertisement should be an indicator to you that what they once were they intend to be again, as it was back when the "movement" began.  Same beliefs, same values, and consequently, same attitudes and behaviors.  You would be well advised to find out what that behavior and what those beliefs were.  Start here: http://gcxweb.org/Books/MarchingToZion/Default.aspx

[G_Prince]

Your investigative fact finding is very wise. Wish I did more of it.  

Part of me wants to tell you that if you feel comfortable at Walnut Creek then OK, maybe it's the church for you. The other part of me want to scream, "Run like heck, and don't look back." I think the answer maybe somewhere in the middle.

I understand that no church is perfect, but some churches have minor issues and other have substantial ones. Many of the imperfections you noted above are common issues found in any church. GCx however has a history of substantial issues which are not simply faults found within the congregation but rather embedded in church policy.

Traditionally GCx has been very authoritarian and cracks down on anyone who might disagree with it's church policies, doctrine...etc. For instance if you let your kids date, you might receive a visit from a pastor rebuking you for letting them get involved in ungodly relationships (this is just the an example from the top of my head). If you refuse to accept your pastor's advice you might find yourself suddenly on the fringes of the church, or even excommunicated in some cases.

Also, be aware that your initial interaction with the congregation is calculated by the church. I have friends who went to Walnut Creek who were often forced via social pressure to meet and greet with every new person who walked though the door. Sure it's a nice policy but it is calculated not genuine. GCx has a history of "love bombing" were the new arrival is fawned over until they commit to the group. Afterwords things can often change.

Sorry I can't provide more specifics on GCx's particular issues. Frankly there are so many that it is impossible to cover them all in a single post. I suggest you visit www.gcxweb.org it is a very resourceful site which tackles many of the major complaints. You also might be interested in the GCM apology letter which can be found on the Wikipedia site. In this letter the movement acknowledges many of the problems discussed on this forum.

I know several people in this forum attended Walnut Creek for many years; perhaps they might chime in on some of the potential pitfalls you may encounter?

All this being said If you like the church, and have had a positive experience with it in the past, I don't see why you shouldn't continue there. Just keep your eyes open. Knowing what you now know, you shouldn't be very susceptible to any potential tactics the church may try to pull.

Also as a side note, I hear Lutheran Church of Hope in west Des Moines is a nice church.

This is terrible advice! Run like hell!

[Linda]

This is terrible advice! Run like hell!

Too funny, GP!

Thanks for posting on this thread and "re-activating" it. I reread a lot of the posts and found them very insightful. Agatha's question "Ask them if they ever rode a bus with an apostle?" still makes me laugh. Lot's of good points were made on this thread.

[Ophelia]

I've been attending a GCM church for about a year and am now desperately trying to extricate myself from it. At first it will seem like a wonderful place. people are close and encouraging. they want to be a part of your life. they are serious about spiritual growth. Eventually though it all becomes something very different. I wish I had known. it would have been so much easier to leave. in the last year, i have seen them encourage people to cut off contact with individuals who choose to attend other CHRISTIAN churches.

[Godalone]

 Ask them why they haven't attended seminary. They don't need it, the Bible says man's knowledge puffs up.   

4. Ask them what TULIP is or why they aren't Calvinist. They have no idea.  I'm not Calvinist, I was just surprised that a lot of leaders didn't even KNOW what it was really.  Weird!

5. Ask them to describe the GC stance on dating. There is no stance on dating. (Yeah right)

I would say that they definitely say "knowledge puffs up"

The leadership doesn't understand calvinism at all!!!! They know the term, but don't understand it. The pastors that do don't agree with all five points.

I was asked to attend a meeting for some college woman a few years back ( so they could ask questions). They have a form of courtship. If you asked them about dating they wouldn't be able to give you a biblical answer why you couldn't.

[MidnightRider]

 

 
4. Ask them what TULIP is or why they aren't Calvinist. They have no idea.  I'm not Calvinist, I was just surprised that a lot of leaders didn't even KNOW what it was really.  Weird!

The leadership doesn't understand calvinism at all!!!! They know the term, but don't understand it. The pastors that do don't agree with all five points.

Perhaps this is GCx urban legend, but maybe somebody can confirm it for me. I had heard that there was a "group" who were expelled from GCx for advocating Calvinism. It would have been before I got there, so probably in the 1970s or very early 1980s.

[Linda]

Terry and I had lunch once with two GC pastors. Somehow, Calvinism vs. Arminianism came up. It wasn't so much a debate on the two, just a discussion of the views and their distinctions. The other pastor was just listening and looked confused. He said something like, "Wow, I don't really know what you are talking about."

My take is that many of the men who have been pastors/Christians for a long time, have, like the rest of us non-seminarians, learned things by asking questions and reading and studying on our own.

In practice (and teaching) from my experience, I think they are more Calvinist than Arminian. I remember a message once on the topic where MD said, "We aren't Calvinist or Arminian, we just believe what the Bible says!" Sigh. On the plus side, at least he had heard the terms.

(Am I spelling Arminian incorrectly? Spell checker doesn't like my spelling.)

[MidnightRider]

(Am I spelling Arminian incorrectly? Spell checker doesn't like my spelling.)

Yes.
Arminian = someone who believes like Arminius.
Armenian = somebody from Armenia.
Spellcheckers aren't always fine-tuned for theology.