New Church Attendee Questions

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[EverAStudent]

During my years at GC, I had never heard any elder speak on predestination or TULIP, and they butchered Romans 8-9 on the few times they touched on passages from those chapters.  They never preached expositionally, so actually covering those two chapters verse-by-verse was not a consideration.

It is unfortunate that the doctrines of grace were labeled after a men's names, Calvinism and Luteranism.  It sounds factious, even to this day.  But the truths of the doctrines of grace have proven themselves over and over from the Bible.  Any Christian's education is deficient if they cannot articulate salvation by faith through grace for the elect, even if they do not believe every tenet of it.

[MidnightRider]

In practice (and teaching) from my experience, I think they are more Calvinist than Arminian. I remember a message once on the topic where MD said, "We aren't Calvinist or Arminian, we just believe what the Bible says!" Sigh. On the plus side, at least he had heard the terms.

You must have talked to different GCx pastors than I did.     I recounted my conversation with Herschel Martindale in another thread.
http://forum.gcmwarning.com/people-and-places-of-gc/herschel-martindale/

What makes you think they are more Calvinist than Arminian?

[AgathaL'Orange]

I am not one to believe that everyone must believe one way or the other, but what bothers me is when you need a spiritual mentor, both for advice in life or for theological concerns, you need to be able to go to your pastor, I believe to ask these questions.

Now I felt comfortable asking questions about theology at my GC church, but often times the pastor couldn't answer them!  He had been a pastor for many years and they were FOUNDATIONAL beliefs concerning salvation, baptism and things of that nature.  It required him talking to others in the movement and getting back to us.  That concerned me.  I honestly feel like I can worship and even learn from someone who disagrees with me, but to never have explored or studied it himself is honestly inappropriate for a head pastor.

I haven't studied the ins and outs of Calvinism.  I get it, I can name the five points, I don't agree with them partly because I feel that it is putting a human label to a divine, mysterious concept that defies human labels.  At the same time, I completely respect those who have studied (and those who haven't), UNLESS they are trying to lead a church.  If you are in that position, you MUST know what you believe and why.  And that reason can't just be because "that's what we believe, Jim from another church can tell you why our movement believes this way".  No, that doesn't cut it.

In my pre GC and post GC days, I could go to my pastor and ask a theological question.  They would sketch out a few things verbally, whip around grab a couple of books and the Bible, and proceed to walk me through things.  I could follow up with questions, they might have a few tips on books to read etc.  But they have always KNOWN what they believe on the foundational questions.

That's why I originally included this in my list of questions.  Because it's a classic example of a piece of knowledge foundational to the Reformation, evangelicalism, Protestantism, and even Western Civilization.  And yet, I don't think they could have always listed or explained this.  And I don't count GCLI.  You have to have an argument, a counter argument, and chronological understanding of the relationship between certain beliefs and the evolution of Protestantism. 

Saying "We believe what the Bible says" is not what Sola Scriptura means.  Do they know the 5 solas?  Again, not something I completely agree with (I do, but Protestants might say I don't), however FOUNDATIONAL to the Reformation and formulation of modern Protestantism.

[meman54]

This is in response to the original post, which asked about churches in Des Moines and Walnut Creek.

I first have to say that I know nothing about GC churches and just discovered today that Walnut Creek was part of an association that was once called a cult. We have known one of the pastors there for years and I visited the church once--but had the strangest looks I had ever seen.  I couldn't figure out why until today, when I discovered this forum. Not only is their church service one of the least inspiring I have ever attended (really bad rock music by young people, a super weak message--it was all more like a bad school pep assembly) but afterwords there was some type of bread-sharing fellowship and it was obvious I wasn't supposed to be there!  No one else greeted me and the pastor never contacted me again (even though he knows me from elsewhere) and I think it may be because of my profession, which involves media investigations and uncovering the truth. (Sorry I need to be a bit vague here.) Now it all makes sense--they wouldn't want one of my kind around and they know I wouldn't buy in to their philosophy.

I also know a couple of people who attend some of the branch churches (they have 3 or 4 churches in the area that are all related) and the people I know are the weirdest young people around. They are real brats--rebels, refuse to listen, underachievers. Again, this now makes sense now that I have read this forum. They rebel to the "world."

One thing I noticed in the postings is that the GC structure seems very Roman Catholic in ways. Saying they are the only church. Saying their leaders have power from the Holy Spirit that congregants don't. I know the Walnut Creek pastor is former Roman Catholic and now is very anti-Catholic, but it's odd that the structures are very closely related.

I would like to know if the original poster found a good church home. I went through the same thing here and Des Moines is the most spiritually dead decent-sized city around. I have lived in 16 places in seven states, and nothing compares to here. The evangelical churches don't even greet you when you enter or follow up after you have left. I can't think of one significant contact made through any of the Baptist, Missouri Synod, Lutheran, E Free, Methodist, First Federated or other churches I have visited.  Maybe that's why Walnut Creek works here for the people that get special attention--the original poster and myself are hungry for spiritual fellowship and looking for believers who invite us in.

Thanks for understanding my newness to this GC topic--you have all helped open my eyes to answer a lot of confusing questions about Walnut Creek I've had over the past few years!

PS  I don't understand the apostle on the bus joke if someone could clue me in.  Thanks!

[AgathaL'Orange]

I'm sorry that you have been unable to find a church that is a good fit for you!  That's hard!  I wasn't looking for close friendships at church.  I barely have time for my existing commitments much less adding in church activities, but I understand that for many people that is an important part of church!  I settled at an Orthodox church, but I remember really liking St. Luke's Episcopal church, Gloria Dei Lutheran Church and the Catholic Basilica.  I am drawn to the historic faith as well as liturgy. I am not a believer in Calvin's Doctrines of Grace, but if you are, I know there are several churches in the area (reformed, Presbyterian, and even a reformed baptist) that friends of mine have gone to and love.  After my history of being in church "families" instead of "church", I no longer have any interest in having close, personal relationships with people I worship with.  Well, unless a relationship develops naturally of course!  I do not like feeling personally invaded and I like boundaries!  I don't like Bible studies where people share personal details or sermons about "practical" things like sex, finances, parenting, and politics.  I like to hear scripture read, doctrine transmitted, historic liturgy and a simple sermon about the reading.  I never ever ever want to attend church where you are exected to take notes.  It is not school and they are not my mentors.  So I know, I am looking for something different than a lot of people.

I like a lot of people at Walnut Creek, but I think that relationships develop in a really unhealthy pattern.  Most people aren't really friends with those on the "outside".  The kids grow up to be best friends of their parents' best friends' children... if that makes any sense.  In other words, you pretty much know who will be best friends, because it sort of goes generationally.  I find it horribly sad to be approached on the street and handed GC literature or tickets to concerts.  One of these days I will tell these poor college students the truth, but so far I haven't.

Back in the day Jim McCotter and Dennis Clark were both declared to be "apostles" and that was around the time when they rode on buses around the US to plant churches, so that's where that comment came from.

Good luck on your journey!

[Linda]

Unity is the cardinal doctrine...There must be unity at all cost. When believers divide over so-called doctrine, they are always trampling under foot the cardinal doctrine--unity.

To pursue union at the expense of truth is treason to the Lord Jesus.

In the truth vs. unity battle, I'm in agreement with Spurgeon and not McCotter and Clark.