Pan-Out by Brent Knox-Egreen, March 31, 2011

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[blonde]

This does not surprize me that Brent at ECC does not have a view on a major biblical concept. 

When Will the Rapture Occur?
By Brent Knox

The past two weekends, I have talked about Jesus’ second coming, the rapture, the wrath of God, and the coming period of seven years called the Tribulation. One natural question that arises is “when will the rapture occur in relation to the Tribulation?”

There are various views on the timing of the Rapture and the tribulation. Each view has Biblical support.

1.    Pre-tribulation rapture.

    This view holds that the Church will be raptured before the Tribulation period begins. The biblical support for this view includes:

    * Jesus’ return is described to be imminent (Matt. 24:42; 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:1-8). How can it be at “any moment” if the rapture is not the first event to happen? Otherwise, we would be expecting other Tribulation events to happen first and His appearance would not be imminent. 
    * The fact that the Church is not mentioned in the Book of Revelations after chapter four when there is the description of the Tribulation period.
    * Rev. 3:10 says that the Church will be kept from the hour of testing (i.e. the Tribulation period). Similarly, if the Tribulation is seen as the expression of the wrath of God, then there are many promises that believers will escape from the wrath of God (e.g. 1 Thess. 1:10).
    * The downside of this view is that it requires two phases in Christ’s coming, or one could even say two comings. There will also be three resurrections: (1) The resurrection of believing dead at the rapture. (2) A resurrection at the end of the Tribulation of believers who died during the Tribulation. (3) A resurrection at the Great White Throne of judgment when unbelievers will be resurrected. These “two comings” and “three resurrections” are difficult to sustain on biblical grounds.

2.    Post-tribulation rapture.

    This view holds that the Church will be raptured at the end of the Tribulation period. The Biblical support for this view includes:

    * There are passages that indicate the Church will go through the Tribulation (e.g. Matt. 24:9-11).
    * The Bible seems to have no reference to two separate resurrections of believers, but describes it as one event (1 Cor. 15:23,24). Similarly, a straight-forward interpretation of 1 Thess. 4:16-17 indicates that the second coming and the rapture happen in one moment of time.

3.    Mid-tribulation view.

    This view holds that the Church will be raptured midway through the Tribulation period. The Biblical support for this view includes:

    * There are passages that indicate the Church will go through the Tribulation (e.g. Matt. 24:9-11) yet there is uncertainty as to when the Lord will return (Matt. 24:42). How can there be uncertainty if the beginning of the Tribulation is clear, and the end of the Tribulation is exactly seven years? Therefore, the rapture occurs somewhere in the middle of the Tribulation.

4.    Pre-wrath rapture.

    This view holds that the Church will go through the Tribulation, but will escape the wrath of God’s judgment upon the world at the close of the Tribulation period, but before the second coming of Christ. This view is growing in popularity. The Biblical support for this view includes:

    * There is a distinction between “tribulation” which believers experience and “wrath” which believers will not experience (1 Thess. 5:9).
    * Passages in Revelation indicate that believers are in Heaven after going through the Tribulation, but before God’s wrath comes (Chapters 7,14,19).

Which view is the official view of Evergreen?
We do not have an official view. Various pastors have various opinions. If there is any official view it is the “pan –tribulation” view, which holds that it will “all pan out in the end.”

In conclusion, consider the words of Wayne Grudem on page 114 of “Systematic Theology”: “Before examining the arguments for these positions it is important to realize that the interpretation of the details of prophetic passages regarding future events is often a complex and difficult task involving many variable factors. Therefore the degree of certainty that attaches to our conclusions in this area will be less than many other doctrines . . .  I also think it important for evangelicals to recognize that this area of study is complex and to extend a measure of grace to others who hold different views regarding the millennium and the tribulation period.”

[Linda]

This is one of many areas where I actually agree with Brent.

[MidnightRider]

When Will the Rapture Occur?
By Brent Knox
...
If there is any official view it is the “pan –tribulation” view, which holds that it will “all pan out in the end.”

That joke was funny the first hundred times I heard it.   

[Innerlight]

Rapture...the most over-used word, which isn't in the Bible...

[nelliepooh]

Interesting.  Although I like the idea of pan-tribulation theory and think that is my view on the debate I dont like the way he explains why the church doest preach one particular view. Its a good explanation for the question but it sounds like he is saying that christians couldn't be raptured at the becoming middle or end of the tribulation because the bible contradicts its self about what's going to happen when really its just that the message about when is so coded that we probably wont ever know with out a doubt the date and time, that's how God is imminent.  Also he doesn't explain that what matters is that Jesus is coming back and will take the body of believers to be with him someday and that the true message is "people get ready, Jesus is coming to take from the world his own". 

[EverAStudent]

innerlight said, "Rapture...the most over-used word, which isn't in the Bible..."

Well, yes and no.  Rapture is just the Latin-English word for the Greek word "harpazo," which means "to snatch away."

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up [Greek: "harpazo," Latin: "rapio," Latin-English transliteration: "raptured"] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

Use of the word rapture is the same as use of the words apostle or baptize, English transliterations of Greek or Latin words.  Yes, rapture, apostle, and baptize are biblical words found in the original texts of the New Testament.

Blessings.

[Innerlight]

Hey All-
I knew if anyone would catch it, it would be Ever a Student…Love ya Brother! 

So I’m not misunderstood, I believe in a rapture (although the specific word isn’t used).  I believe that Jesus can return at any moment (i.e. the “thief in the night”).  What I don’t agree with is the notion, most notably among people in the US, who have never suffered real tribulation, is that we are “outta here” before the going gets rough.  Let’s call it the “left behind” syndrome.
 
I think Brent Knox did a great explaining all the positions…save one.  That would be the Parousia, or appearance or return of Christ.  It is my opinion, and I have good company, that Christ’s return will be likened to a dignitary, emperor, and king, what have you.  Paul’s imagery and use of the word would have been familiar to his audience, who watched Roman dignitaries come visit their cities. 

The imagery describes royalty (king) coming to a town, and the townspeople coming out to meet him, a welcome reception, and escorting the king into the city, for the reception.  Those who did not come out to meet him are the ones who realize they are in trouble.

In a nutshell, I believe Christ will return once more, to earth, and take his place as King.  We will meet him in the clouds, just as Paul says, (Rapture), but this will be no secret taking away up to heaven.  This will be a returning king, whose loyal subjects are caught up to meet him, and return to earth to begin the new kingdom.  Christ will destroy those who oppose him by the sharp sword of his mouth.  There will be no Armageddon, but a one-sided destruction of those who oppose him. 

Matthew 24
 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.   "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 

Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
 
 Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
 
Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Yes rapture is a real word...point given, but it’s been hijacked and manipulated by so many people, I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding what it actually entails.  Would you agree?

[Innerlight]

Hey EverAStudent..I called you a brother.  Since this is anonymous, you may be a sister

[EverAStudent]

Yes, it is proper to address me as "brother." 

And, also yes, the word "rapture" is literally in the text, if you are reading the Latin Vulgate.  It is probably more important to understand that the action is that of being "snatched away" and not that of "choosing to go away."  Think of this word in the same sense that scientists use it: "raptor" meaning "snatcher."  The church, at least as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 will not voluntarily fly up to the clouds as a sign of respect to the coming King, rather, it will be snatched away without their effort or approval like a rabbit being "raptured" by an eagle, the raptor. 

An interesting element of the snatching, the rapture, that 1 Thessalonians 4:18 specifies is that the dead in Christ are raptured first, then we join them.  This can only mean the first resurrection of the righteous as described in Revelation 20:5-6.

I can hardly wait!

[Innerlight]

Hey Ever:

You and I agree, we just don't know it.  I still think the entire Parousia issue is overlooked in favor of the rapture.  I never used the word voluntary, but was agreeing with you that a rapture would occur, but we would meet the King, in the clouds, and return with him to earth.  I do not think it will be a secret rapture of the church, but one eye-popping event, witnessed by all. 

[EverAStudent]

Yes, without an unambiguous divine timeline or flowchart there is room for alternate interpretations.  I even retain fellowship with my mistaken preterist brethren. 

[Innerlight]

I wouldnt go as far as pretrist, just a different view of the second coming (the only second coming)

[Innerlight]

and when I say that, I only know portions of what Preterist's believe.  What I do know is they believe all the same tenants of salvation as we do. 

Again, I do believe in a rapture, it could happen at any time, but it is not the version we read about in "Left Behind".  Christ will return once more, we (the elect) will meet him in the clouds, and the victory march will continue to earth.  You can read more of this in any Harper Collins Study Bible, or the views of several well known PHD's. 

I do not believe much of preterist eschatology, but much of what they have published is eye-opening.

I'm Baptist.  Dispensationlism, Darby and Scofield leave much to be desired. 

Thanks Man...I love the back and forth...Iron sharpens iron!!! 

   

[MidnightRider]

Yes, without an unambiguous divine timeline or flowchart there is room for alternate interpretations.  I even retain fellowship with my mistaken preterist brethren. 

MidnightRider admits to being preterist, and is pleased that EAS is willing to have fellowship with them. In fact, I am downright surprised that at least two others have even heard of preterism.

[MidnightRider]

...
When Will the Rapture Occur?
By Brent Knox
...
Which view is the official view of Evergreen?
We do not have an official view. Various pastors have various opinions. If there is any official view it is the “pan –tribulation” view, which holds that it will “all pan out in the end.”
...

That particular GCx church may not have an official view of the timing of the rapture, but the GCx I was exposed to 25 years ago was pre-trib. It was not something that we were taught much in our church meetings, but our pastor would use it as a topic to draw non-members into the church. We would have those meetings where we would put up posters on campus and invite everyone to come here about all the bad stuff that was about to happen Any Day Now.

Apart from any specific meetings, the dispensational eschatology was one of the driving forces behind the entire GCx movement. We had to reach the world with the gospel in our generation, because Jesus is about to come back and rapture away the church.


 

[Huldah]

That particular GCx church may not have an official view of the timing of the rapture, but the GCx I was exposed to 25 years ago was pre-trib. It was not something that we were taught much in our church meetings, but our pastor would use it as a topic to draw non-members into the church...the dispensational eschatology was one of the driving forces behind the entire GCx movement.

We were definitely pre-trib at Solid Rock 30 years ago. I don't remember a lot of sermons on it, but it was a part of our everyday conversation and worldview. Someone would discuss their some future plans, and someone else would exclaim, "Gee, the Lord could be back by then!" A brother would refer to a copy of US News and World Report as "US News and Prophecy Report". Exhortations to spend more time witnessing would often include a remark such as, "What if the Lord came back while you were sharing The Four Spiritual Laws! Wouldn't you love to be caught red-handed sharing the Gospel at the moment of the Rapture?" It was part of the reason why education, careers, and financial advancement were actively discouraged. Why save for retirement when you weren't going to be around to need it?

[MidnightRider]

We were definitely pre-trib at Solid Rock 30 years ago. I don't remember a lot of sermons on it, but it was a part of our everyday conversation and worldview. Someone would discuss their some future plans, and someone else would exclaim, "Gee, the Lord could be back by then!" A brother would refer to a copy of US News and World Report as "US News and Prophecy Report". Exhortations to spend more time witnessing would often include a remark such as, "What if the Lord came back while you were sharing The Four Spiritual Laws! Wouldn't you love to be caught red-handed sharing the Gospel at the moment of the Rapture?"
...

Too bad for the poor guy you were sharing it with. He missed out on the Rapture because you had only gotten to Law Two. 
 

[MidnightRider]

Yes, without an unambiguous divine timeline or flowchart there is room for alternate interpretations.  ...

I get this picture of the apostle Paul writing his epistles with a big prophecy chart taped to the wall in front of him. Fortunately, his readers in Corinth, Thessaloniki, etc. had a copy. We today are hopelessly confused because we don't have the chart. 

More seriously, the chart is in the Bible. Everything is all laid out in Matthew 24 and 25.