Pastoral Authority Q and A John MacArthur

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[AgathaL'Orange]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X65vspiZLLA


How much authority does your pastor have in your life?  John MacArthur

[KnowingGod]

Awesome post, thanks for sharing this as hearing this Q and A was incredibly healing to me after leaving the Rock in a Minneapolis. It’s probably because Mark would often discourage listening to a lot of pastors other than GCC pastors. The same was true about getting counsel for every decision in your life (dating, careers, Ministries, etc.) with the expectation of following the advice. It was implied the leaders are used by God to speak to you and if you chose otherwise you  would often be labeled as  “hard harder” or “rebellious.”, so early in my Christian walk I was constantly confused as to who’s voice I was hearing, Gods, the leaders, or my own which lead to much confusion and insecurity about big life decisions. Simple advice was changed to being Gods will if it came from a Pastor or leader placed in “authority” over you. After leaving and attending a church now who would agree with what’s McCarthur on this, I have replaced mans voice with the Holy Spirits and much fruit in the forms of  peace, comfort, and clarity have replaced fear, worry, and discouragement over the last few years.

[Shamednomore]

Agatha, To hear a pastor say those words is healing to me every time.  Thank you for sharing that link!  Authority was stuffed down my throat from the time I was a child to my 20’s.  They liken hearing your own inner voice as the devil trying to tempt you to usurp your authority figures.  My inner voice, which could be the Holy Spirit in me, is dangerous to them.  Freethinking people question authority, which would dismantle their power structure.  Gc is such an ungodly org set up to maintain complete control and give power to men who are feeding their pride and arrogance. 

[ShineTheLight]

This should be required listening for every ECC pastor

[DarthVader]

This should be "bumped"  I think the challenge is based on what I've seen, ECC pastors will often cloak their directives to members IN scripture..although it's hard to see how you get from the bible to.."you must homeschool and spank your kids" or "you shouldn't date (period) or you shouldn't date "that guy or girl" or "you should cut person A out of your life" or "you should never leave our church" or "you should never move someplace without a GCM church")...They would almost always have some scripture behind it or to support it...Like any abusive relationship the blame is solely on the person in power (the pastor) for using their position to exceed their scriptural authority in one's life.

[OneOfMany]

This should be sent to every member of the "church" we know.

The pastors souls are seared, that is my humble opinion. They are lost. But if people they manipulate can awaken to their bondage, a bondage that keeps them from knowing who they are in Christ, then that is a very good thing.

I am going too far to say that the pastors souls are seared. I do think that among them are psychopathic personalities and they are likely to remain as they are. But others have a conscience and maybe can leave this system of bondage that they help perpetuate.

[Digital Lynch Mob]

This should be sent to every member of the "church" we know.

The pastors souls are seared, that is my humble opinion. They are lost. But if people they manipulate can awaken to their bondage, a bondage that keeps them from knowing who they are in Christ, then that is a very good thing.

I am going too far to say that the pastors souls are seared. I do think that among them are psychopathic personalities and they are likely to remain as they are. But others have a conscience and maybe can leave this system of bondage that they help perpetuate.

Seriously? Congratulations on having the dumbest post of the week.

[Linda]

Good idea to bump this DV. Thanks for sharing it Agatha!

https://youtu.be/X65vspiZLLA

[DarthVader]

This should be sent to every member of the "church" we know.

The pastors souls are seared, that is my humble opinion. They are lost. But if people they manipulate can awaken to their bondage, a bondage that keeps them from knowing who they are in Christ, then that is a very good thing.

I am going too far to say that the pastors souls are seared. I do think that among them are psychopathic personalities and they are likely to remain as they are. But others have a conscience and maybe can leave this system of bondage that they help perpetuate.

Seriously? Congratulations on having the dumbest post of the week.

Hey DLM - I'd frame it a bit differently than OoM and say it's a not great system with a mix of people with their heart in the right place and some not (like any church), but its more the system that is the problem.  It's harder 1) In churches with stronger  internal checks and balances vs. the myth of mutual accountability 2) In churches that don't make so many non-essentials essentials (dating, home schooling, spanking, etc. - which in many cultures aren't even relevant topics btw) to see some of the issues I've seen and others have seen in GCM churches.

[OneOfMany]

This should be sent to every member of the "church" we know.

The pastors souls are seared, that is my humble opinion. They are lost. But if people they manipulate can awaken to their bondage, a bondage that keeps them from knowing who they are in Christ, then that is a very good thing.

I am going too far to say that the pastors souls are seared. I do think that among them are psychopathic personalities and they are likely to remain as they are. But others have a conscience and maybe can leave this system of bondage that they help perpetuate.

Seriously? Congratulations on having the dumbest post of the week.

You find my post dumb because you do not understand the statement. I will try to explain.

Psychopathic personalities choose their profession to match their ego. And in the top 10 fields of work psychopathic personalities choose clergyman/pastor is in the top 10 of the list...every list that I have found since I learned about this. That explains why so many churches find themselves in the same situation as Evergreen is in with people trying to get their minds around the fact that this magnetic person they like behaves with some church members in an unethical manner.

Psychopathic personalities are not people who kill. Psychopaths merely - and typically - just lack emotions and empathy, or the ability to identify with others. A number of psychopathic attributes [are] actually more common in business leaders than in so-called disturbed criminals — attributes such as superficial charm, egocentricity, persuasiveness, lack of empathy, independence, and focus.” They love power.

They can act as if they have emotions because they are good actors and actresses. But what gives them their fuel is the adulation they receive and the credit they take for what they do.

For instance. A Pastor gets onto a stage and can make the audience laugh, cry, sad, happy etc. They pastor constantly hears that they have saved lives, changed lives, and saved souls. The psychopathic pastor takes credit for saving the souls and can get odd in their claims such as Darling saying that you can become a virgin again. It is a power trip.

They create a system or culture of control so that as people become aware of problems or report being a victim the system will protect them and their life of control, power and self adulation can go on. It is more common that most of us realize.

[Greentruth]

This is so sad, the arrogance and smear talking. I can’t imagine anyone looking at this and not feeling sorry for those here so caught up in yourselves and mocking what you have no idea of.. My heart goes out to all who are being falsely attacked here, but I feel sorry for the ruthless gang here who can’t get enough of destructive words and pouncing and mocking anyone who dares speak contrary to you. Why?  Because those you attack will eventually move on, and those hurt will heal, and God will use the pain you have dished out to strength them. But you who live to create the pain, who are captivated and addicted to this type of activity will only have what you crave. Seriously, it really saddens me to know that many of you will spend So much precious time on this forum long after all has been settled, as it never will be settled for you. Some already scores of years here. Very very sad.

[Huldah]

The pastors souls are seared, that is my humble opinion. They are lost. But if people they manipulate can awaken to their bondage, a bondage that keeps them from knowing who they are in Christ, then that is a very good thing.

I am going too far to say that the pastors souls are seared. I do think that among them are psychopathic personalities and they are likely to remain as they are. But others have a conscience and maybe can leave this system of bondage that they help perpetuate.

Bold words, OneOfMany.

But I agree with you, and with the explanation you gave in your second post.

If someone wants to understand more about the kind of person you're describing, I suggest the book, "The Sociopath Next Door," by Martha Stout. I believe I've met several people in my lifetime who qualify as sociopaths, and one of them was a child social worker (what could be more of a power trip than the legal authority to take someone's baby away?).

As for whether there are sociopaths in positions of power in GC, I would never say that all or even most GC pastors are sociopaths. I strongly suspect that a few are. I believe it's even in the DNA of the movement.

[Digital Lynch Mob]

Oneofmany, just so we're totally clear, can you point out which of these men are soul-seared psychopaths?

Doug Patterson, Mark Stiglicz, Brent Knox, Mike Olmstead, Tim Weber, Jeff Groen, Spencer Bernard, Mark Bowen, Mike Langlois, Rob Busse, Mark Darling, Karl Quickert, Lucas Shogren, Ryan Stahl, Andy Gray or Chad Oltman

[DarthVader]

Dlm - just to bring us back to a useful discussion (or feel free to keep duking it out with people who will never agree w/you)  as a dyed-in-the-wool GCMer -   Did you watch the clip and do you have a perspective?

[Digital Lynch Mob]

Dlm - just to bring us back to a useful discussion (or feel free to keep duking it out with people who will never agree w/you)  as a dyed-in-the-wool GCMer -   Did you watch the clip and do you have a perspective?

I completely agree with these statements, "I have no authority beyond the scripture. I can never exceed what is written." AND "I have nothing to say to you that puts any demands on you if it isn't from the word of God. If I am telling you what God says in his word, that has authority."

"It's all of Christ it's all of the Holy Spirit it's all of the scripture." Amen.

[ShineTheLight]

Dlm - just to bring us back to a useful discussion (or feel free to keep duking it out with people who will never agree w/you)  as a dyed-in-the-wool GCMer -   Did you watch the clip and do you have a perspective?

I completely agree with these statements, "I have no authority beyond the scripture. I can never exceed what is written." AND "I have nothing to say to you that puts any demands on you if it isn't from the word of God. If I am telling you what God says in his word, that has authority."

"It's all of Christ it's all of the Holy Spirit it's all of the scripture." Amen.

How about these statements?

"None - I have no authority" - I have no authority in this church personally, my experience, knowledge, eduction doesn't give me authority my position, my title doesn't have any authority.   We need to be reminded as pastors even though the lord has lifted us up, we have no authority.  I can give you wisdom if you ask, but I may have no more wisdom than anyone else, in fact my wife Patrica may have more wisdom that I"

 

[omelianchuk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X65vspiZLLA


How much authority does your pastor have in your life?  John MacArthur

I must say, I find JM’s argument here to be rather problematic. It seems to go like this:
1.   If God mediates his authority through Scripture, then there is no pastoral authority.
2.   God mediates his authority through Scripture.
3.   Therefore, there is no pastoral authority.
Why believe premise 1? After all, one can appeal to Scripture to support the claim that there is pastoral authority. For example,

“Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.” –Hebrews 13:17 (NIV).

In this passage, Scripture recognizes that “leaders” (which I take to include pastors) have some measure of authority that non-leaders should submit to in order to give joy to the leader. Thus, there is some sort of pastoral authority, which is contrary to the conclusion of JM’s argument. If he is committed to [2] (which he is), then he should deny [1].

I do not offer this up as a defense of GCx’s leadership structure. The measure and scope of pastoral authority is up for debate. But it is false that there is no pastoral authority.

[Linda]

I thought the question was “What authority does a pastor have over the lives of a congregant.” (ie who to marry, where to work, how many kids to have, where to live, etc.)?”

That would not be the same as the authority to boldly preach the Word which a pastor does have.

[Shamednomore]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCt3Iau87qk


This. 

[omelianchuk]

I thought the question was “What authority does a pastor have over the lives of a congregant.” (ie who to marry, where to work, how many kids to have, where to live, etc.)?”

That would not be the same as the authority to boldly preach the Word which a pastor does have.

Perhaps. Whatever his claim is, it needs qualification. Hebrews seems to recognize that there is something distinctive about pastoral authority and that it should be submitted to in some manner. Boldly preaching the word is something lay persons can do.