Pastoral Authority Q and A John MacArthur

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[OneOfMany]

One thing that has been important to God since the beginning is our free will. God even said that to have others in authority over us such as a king is not how he intended us to live. We were meant to be free so we can choose how we live and express our true selves in service to God.

Therefore pastors who claim to have authority over personal lives and how they are lived are violating the God Given Freedom that is in the bible from Genesis all the way through Revelations.

[DarthVader]

I thought the question was “What authority does a pastor have over the lives of a congregant.” (ie who to marry, where to work, how many kids to have, where to live, etc.)?”

That would not be the same as the authority to boldly preach the Word which a pastor does have.

Perhaps. Whatever his claim is, it needs qualification. Hebrews seems to recognize that there is something distinctive about pastoral authority and that it should be submitted to in some manner. Boldly preaching the word is something lay persons can do.

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account. To this end, allow them to lead with joy and not with grief, for that would be of no advantage to you

Hey Adam - this is the verse correct?  A couple of thoughts 1) I'd love to see other verses shed light on what this verse means.  Any other NT references you are aware of?  I think we'd all agree at a minimum if a leader sees sin in your life, they have a responsibility to point that out and ask for change.  The question is how much further does it go (if at all) such as - you really "should" homeschool or spank your kids, you really "shouldn't" date, or date a specific (believing) person, etc.

[OneOfMany]

I thought the question was “What authority does a pastor have over the lives of a congregant.” (ie who to marry, where to work, how many kids to have, where to live, etc.)?”

That would not be the same as the authority to boldly preach the Word which a pastor does have.

Perhaps. Whatever his claim is, it needs qualification. Hebrews seems to recognize that there is something distinctive about pastoral authority and that it should be submitted to in some manner. Boldly preaching the word is something lay persons can do.

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account. To this end, allow them to lead with joy and not with grief, for that would be of no advantage to you

Hey Adam - this is the verse correct?  A couple of thoughts 1) I'd love to see other verses shed light on what this verse means.  Any other NT references you are aware of?  I think we'd all agree at a minimum if a leader sees sin in your life, they have a responsibility to point that out and ask for change.  The question is how much further does it go (if at all) such as - you really "should" homeschool or spank your kids, you really "shouldn't" date, or date a specific (believing) person, etc.

Exactly. Taking a line out of scripture and interpreting it out of context has led to the kind of problems endemic in the GCX churches. And once you say that a pastor can tell you how to spend your time or who to date or if you go to college or not then why not ask them what toothpaste is Godly to use. My point being for those who need clarification is that if the pastor is to act as a parent to a child involving themselves in details of a person's life then all details of one's life are logically up for grabs. This is a major boundary issue.

[Digital Lynch Mob]

Exactly. Taking a line out of scripture and interpreting it out of context has led to the kind of problems endemic in the GCX churches. And once you say that a pastor can tell you how to spend your time or who to date or if you go to college or not then why not ask them what toothpaste is Godly to use. My point being for those who need clarification is that if the pastor is to act as a parent to a child involving themselves in details of a person's life then all details of one's life are logically up for grabs. This is a major boundary issue.

It seems to me a pastor has no more authority in your life than you give them.

[Greentruth]

From what I have seen some just don’t like that they don’t have authority over the pastor, or Church for that matter. And I agree, no pastor has mor authority than you give him in your personal life. Most times my experince has been that I ask advise, and from what advise I get I make my decision. On Church policy, as a friend who went through seminary, Church is not a democracy, but a theocracy. We all have the option to go to the Church that follows our beliefs, or leave if we don’t agree. For now anyway, as some groups think they should be able to dictate the theocracy of all Churches. I don’t agree with everything my Church decides, but the main thing is they teach the Bible and are spirit filled, the same as the ECC ChurchI attended.

[Badger]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X65vspiZLLA


How much authority does your pastor have in your life?  John MacArthur

I must say, I find JM’s argument here to be rather problematic. It seems to go like this:
1.   If God mediates his authority through Scripture, then there is no pastoral authority.
2.   God mediates his authority through Scripture.
3.   Therefore, there is no pastoral authority.
Why believe premise 1? After all, one can appeal to Scripture to support the claim that there is pastoral authority. For example,

“Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.” –Hebrews 13:17 (NIV).

In this passage, Scripture recognizes that “leaders” (which I take to include pastors) have some measure of authority that non-leaders should submit to in order to give joy to the leader. Thus, there is some sort of pastoral authority, which is contrary to the conclusion of JM’s argument. If he is committed to [2] (which he is), then he should deny [1].

I do not offer this up as a defense of GCx’s leadership structure. The measure and scope of pastoral authority is up for debate. But it is false that there is no pastoral authority.

There's much to unpack in Hebrews 13:17.  Many abusive church and cult leaders use this verse to command their followers to "submit" and "obey" them.  Church leaders will say the Greek text means exactly what the English text says, to submit and obey.  However, it is seldom that leaders who make such statements support their argument by delving into the Greek text.


First of all, the NIV translation is one of the only translations that translate "authority" rather than leaders in this verse.  Going to the Greek text, one finds that there is no Greek word for "authority" in Hebrews 13:17.


What Greek word does the writer of Hebrews use for obey?  Peithesthe is used - the passive middle voice of peithó.  Greek lexicons illustrate peithó as an action of being persuaded or having confidence.  This is much different then the command we are given to obey (peitharcheó - to obey an authority) God, not man in Acts 5:29.  Scripture never asks us to obey (peitharcheó) our church leaders.  It asks us to have confidence and to be persuaded by our leaders; it does not ask us to obey their "authority."


The Greek word translated to "submit" in Hebrews 13:17 is hupeiko.  Hupeiko is defined as retiring, withdrawing, giving yield to, staying out of the way.  It is does not mean to blindly follow an order.


Thus, the original Greek text does not support church leaders having authority that laity must obey by submitting to their commands.  Instead, Hebrews 13:17 instructs us to allow ourselves to be taught or persuaded by our leaders while not obstructing or hindering them in doing their jobs; taking such an outlook towards our leaders make their job a joy and not a burden.

I used the interlinear Greek/English text as well as Strong's and Vine's lexicons for my above word study.

[omelianchuk]

The Greek word translated to "submit" in Hebrews 13:17 is hupeiko.  Hupeiko is defined as retiring, withdrawing, giving yield to, staying out of the way.  It is does not mean to blindly follow an order.

Who suggested anything about blindly following an order? Not me. I left the nature of the authority in question unspecified. Looking at the text in the Greek, you are right that "authority" does not appear in it explicitly. But the semantic domain of Hupeiko, according to this interlinear resource (which I don't think are different from yours, is it?), does include in its metaphorical meaning "to yield to authority and admonition, to submit." So I don't buy your argument that there is no hierarchal relationship of authority and submission between pastor and non-pastor in the church. What precisely that relationship entails, I agree, is up for debate, and I would not agree that pastors have a right to tell people who to marry, where to work, etc. But the relationship is there contrary to JM.

EDIT: The lexicon appears to be Thayer's. So we are looking at different resources.

[DarthVader]

I found this explanation of Heb 13.17 and really liked it...

http://laymansfellowship.com/table-of-contents/apologias/hebrews-1317-a-closer-look/submit-analysis-2/

"There is one further point to consider.  The scope of yielding is not clear.  Is it in everything that one leading might want to do?  We can’t answer this based solely on the context of Hebrews 13:17, but the answer is no, with one exception.  Let’s consider the exception.  If one who is leading was walking perfectly as Christ did, then they would only be acting according to the will of the Father and then you would want to yield to their view and way in all cases.  This is the pattern that “The Leader” (Jesus Christ) set.   However, we know that only Christ walked in this kind of perfection and that none of the rest of us do (including those leading).  As a result, we have all been left with individual responsibility to follow “The Leader”, the only one who followed God the Father perfectly.  We should certainly follow the example of those who are really leading (not according to title) among us, because they have come closer to what Jesus did and have learned how to have a better walk with God.  We should also be persuaded by them and yield to their point of view (again, assuming they are really leading)"

This seems to track exactly with what MaCarthur was saying and resonates with me as Truth.