Perfectionism

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[maranatha]

John Hopler sent this quote out with his weekly Morale Booster email:

"Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." -Coach Vince Lombardi (to the Green Bay Packers football team, which won 5 NFL championships in 7 years)

***

and then there was this verse from Phillipians 3:12:

"Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus."
***

I'm all for excellence and doing things well, but it seems like there can be inordinate amount of pressure put on GCx leaders to produce results that can be seen... to be like  Martha rather than  Mary. (Luke 10:38-41)

[lone gone]

I have some thoughts:

Sometimes we cannot know what excellence is. Often times what we deem a success is actually failure. Sometimes a failure is actually a success.

 We may try to do something and it will succeed or it may not succeed. God may indeed choose the foolish over the wise. James wrote about this.

 Read Acts without any pre-conceived notions about church history. The Apostles and church grew by accidental "providence" and not by plan. Peter and Paul both floundered around in their ministries. Sometimes they thought they knew God's will and it turned out they didn't have a clue what God intended or what God meant to do with them.

Looking back we think we "now know" what to do to avoid their mistakes. We don't know anything. God is still working in ways we simply do not understand. The leaders of any church that  use "cause and effect" analysis will fall prey to all sorts of human self deception.

Great Commission churches are supposed to be New Testament churches.  
How many of those original churches are still in existence if they were so successful? Is that what GC wants to copy?

Most dramatically of all.... sometimes God asks his saints to die, rejected ignoble shameful unappreciated misunderstood,outcast. Not at all the picture of success.

And yet God is glorified even if we don't understand how that could possibly be. Christ on the Cross comes to mind.

[MidnightRider]

"Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." -Coach Vince Lombardi (to the Green Bay Packers football team, which won 5 NFL championships in 7 years)

I am a Cowboy fan, so I don't have to be reminded who Vince Lombardi was.  

More seriously, "pursuing perfection" can result in catching excellence. Or it can result in a person being unable to admit he has ever done anything wrong.

[boboso]

lone gone, I agree 100%. Since when can we flawed humans see more than a few feet in front of us?

We should be humble because we cannot see the entire picture - "failures" and "successes" in light of eternity. Any other attitude is arrogant, proud, and foolish. The assumption of GCx "leadership" to somehow have greater clairvoyance is just insane. They are killing themselves to appear so esoteric while resisting the big elephant in the room: they are just as human as the rest of us.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Great Commission churches are supposed to be New Testament churches.  
How many of those original churches are still in existence if they were so successful? Is that what GC wants to copy?

I don't think it would be so bad to imitate a New Testament church.  But how do we know what a New Testament church was really like?  We have know way of knowing other than through writings from that time or shortly after that time.  One of my big beefs with GC is that they claim to practice "New Testament Christianity Today."  But they don't.  One big difference is the lack of any sort of liturgical service.  I enclosed a nice little summary of the history of liturgy and the practice of Communion since the beginning of Church.

 "The Apostles celebrated Holy Communion according to the commandment and example of Christ and taught their disciples and successors to perform this great and saving Mystery. In the earliest times the order and form of celebrating the Liturgy were transmitted orally, and all the prayers and sacred hymns were memorized. Eventually, written explanations of the Apostolic Liturgy began to appear. As time passed, new prayers, hymns, and sacred actions were added in various churches. The need arose to unify the existing orders of the Liturgy for the sake of harmony in their celebration. In the fourth century, when the persecutions of the Romans against Christians ended, it was possible to re-establish good order in the Church's inner life through the Ecumenical Councils. St. Basil the Great wrote a form of the Liturgy for general use, then, somewhat later, St. John Chrysostom wrote a shorter version of St. Basil's Liturgy. These Liturgies were based on the most ancient Liturgy, attributed to St. James the Apostle, the first bishop of Jerusalem."

Instead GC would call this type of worship "rote," "meaningless tradition," worship of a "satanic cult," and not "real worship."  Of course we all know what "real worship" would look like to a GC person.  And of course it changes with each decade.  In the 70's real worship was perhaps a guitar and some folksy singing.  In the 90's choruses started getting a bit hipper and a full band started... now it's full on stage presence with lights, and sound systems and even a "performance hall" at some GC locations.

New Testament Christianity??  I don't think so.

But it's not the style that completely sets GC apart from New Testament Christianity.  It's the lack of respect for those who invented the "wheel of church" so to speak... And I'm not talking just about Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Catholicism... I mean even reformational churches too...

To go your own way... apart from historic Christianity... even Christianity that was happening FIFTY YEARS AGO!!!!  is to set yourself apart form the greater body of Christians that preserved Christianity until today.

And for what it's worth... I DO think that those New Testament churches had it right.  They were unified in practice and belief.  

Here's 2Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

They have NO idea what they are even teaching sometimes because hardly any of them have gone to seminary or even studied the tiny basics of Christianity... history, theology or otherwise.

That wouldn't be so bad in itself if they weren't so darn proud of themselves!!!

[lone gone]

I agree that the Liturgy is the church's gift to the each succeeding generation.Many Christians have no understanding about and even have been falsely taught things about the practices of other Christians.

One of the earliest writings of the church called the Didache indicates how worship practices ( liturgy) were performed. Thsi developed into various liturgies in each region of the world.

Most of the liturgy is reciting scripture.... which any real Christian should have no problem with. Even the Lord's Prayer... which are the words of Christ, can merely be recited or sincerely prayed depending on the heart of the speaker. I never prayed the Lord's Prayer during the entire time I was involved with the GC church in Ames.

Oh, I was taught about it, had it expounded upon, learned life lessons from it.... but I never prayed it because that would have been "mindlessly repeating words over and over again and scripture teaches against that".

I sincerely believe that worship is not about emotion but  the current emphasis on "happy-clappy" church would lead us to believe otherwise. Mindlessly and blissfully singing "Kumbaya" or "Praise Him" over and over and over again is not different than mindlessly reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in a patriotic fervor.

But what I just typed could also apply to many mainline denominations around the world today. I shouldn't be critical of God's fellow servants when what they are doing isn't prohibited by God.

The Liturgy is neither commanded nor forbidden by Scripture and neither are "happy-clappy" celebrations of God's people in his presence. I just happen to prefer one over the other.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Happy-clappy is a really fun way to describe that!

And, you know, sometimes I even like "happy-clappy!"  For example, we often go to a huge ecumencial Easter service put on by a local Lutheran church.  It's so "happy clappy" they have twenty to thirty kids hop down the aisles on pogo sticks.  And every single year I cry when they do it.  It just seems to be such a great picture of how I feel inside thinking about Jesus rising from the dead and the beauty of redeemed lives.  That really does make me feel "happy clappy."  

That said... I like how that church does that only on Easter.  It would be strange to do that when you are talking about the crucifixion or martyrdom or something.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify I am not against happy clappy.  I'm just against people thinking that somehow that is "New Testament Style" worship.  That's all.  It just drives me nuts.  

But again it wouldn't drive me nuts if they weren't so darn smug about it.  If they weren't so elitist it would really not bother me at all.  But in there mind it seems to be the "GC way" and the "wrong way."

[G_Prince]

The Church has been evolving since the beginning, and to claim like GCx does that they are New Testament Christianity is absurd. New Testament Christianity no longer exist nor can it exist ever again.

We can't for instance, go back to 50 AD rehash the arguments about Gentiles and Jews and who has to obey what laws. This example was a real issue in the early church and  drastically changed the course of Church history. There is no way we can recreate these conditions.

That being said I think there are many churches which are New Testament like...but GCx is probably the farthest thing out there from New Testament Christianity...especially in terms of worship and theology.

Interestingly, they do seem to raise up leaders in a New Testament-esque way. This kind of leadership was, however, seemingly ditched by the early second century because churches needed hierarchy and organization in order to survive. This is good example of how the church evolved and adapted to face challenges. The New Testament church had lots of problems and issues and was by no means perfect...just read Corinthians .

I think often as Christians we idolize this period as kind of a golden age of Christianity in which everything was as it should be and since then Christianity has been regressing into heresy, worldliness etc. However, the early church had major problems just like any other period of Christianity.  It was not a Christian Utopia any more than say Geneva under Calvin.

Christianity is a moving and evolving body which I believe is being perfected much like we as individuals are bing perfected.

[theresearchpersona]

The Church has been evolving since the beginning, and to claim like GCx does that they are New Testament Christianity is absurd. New Testament Christianity no longer exist nor can it exist ever again.

We can't for instance, go back to 50 AD rehash the arguments about Gentiles and Jews and who has to obey what laws. This example was a real issue in the early church and  drastically changed the course of Church history. There is no way we can recreate these conditions.

That being said I think there are many churches which are New Testament like...but GCx is probably the farthest thing out there from New Testament Christianity...especially in terms of worship and theology.

Interestingly, they do seem to raise up leaders in a New Testament-esque way. This kind of leadership was, however, quickly ditched by the early second century because churches needed hierarchy and organization in order to survive. This is good example of how the church evolved and adapted to face challenges. The New Testament church had lost of problems and issues and was by no means perfect...just read Corinthians .

I think often as Christians we idolize this period as kind of a golden age of Christianity in which everything was as it should be and since then Christianity has been regressing into heresy, worldliness etc. However, the early church had major problems just like any other period of Christianity.  It was not a Christian Utopia any more than say Geneva under Calvin.

Christianity is a moving and evolving body which I believe is being perfected much like we as individuals are bing perfected.

Do you really think it's NT-like LT-choosing? I think it's more along the lines of who'll listen and fit the mold...it seems people around here have said the same; it also seems the very mature and grounded eventually get booted or have to leave...and I know of people inside who think the same thing, especially about choosing the fresh rather than seasoned: the easily deceived, and very zealous with the least knowledge.

As for theology and worship...what are your thoughts on how these aren't NT style in GC? And what are your thoughts on the theology? What say the scriptures?

[MidnightRider]

  [...]
One big difference is the lack of any sort of liturgical service.  
  [...]

Ag,

GCx has a liturgy of sorts. After all, the liturgy is just what a church does over and over.

As an example, the Orthodox vespers service begins with the priest chanting,
"Glory to the consubstantial, undivided, and all-holy Trinity, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen."

When I was in GCx, the Sunday service began with the song leader yelling,
"EVERYBODY FIND A SEAT AND STOP TALKING! IT'S TIME TO START!"

Both are part of a liturgy. I will leave it to you readers to decide which is a better way to begin worship.

[AgathaL'Orange]

That's hilarious about the liturgical practice of yelling at people!  I wonder how many crazy practices I did myself in my various ministries.  

Bringing up the Didache earlier made me want to read it, as I have never actually done so.  Luckily my husband has a copy AND he found it, which is an effort in itself.

Anyway, I found this quote which I thought was exceptionally pertinent on the "perfectionism" discussion... here it is.  I thought it was profound, simple, and humorous all at once.

"For if you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect.  But if you are not able, then do what you can."

I LOVE this!  Unfortunately, I fall into the "not even doing what I can camp" too often.  

Anyway, thought you guys might enjoy this.

[lone gone]

I can remember choosing leaders in the bad old days before the apology.
There was a sincere attempt to recognize elders who had "the right stuff" without being trained. Those who were recognized had good hearts and a natural gift for teaching.  Leadership abilities and life experience were not considered essential.  Many of those people are still in leadership roles today.
This was how McCotter and his closest ( and surviving) circle of leaders came to be in the position they are in.  

Yes, in the New Testament, Paul taught and assisted with the recognition of local elders and deacons.  He was a highly trained and educated, widely traveled, product of a mixed religion marriage. Additionally he was inspired directly by God.  Yet even he had problems with the elders who were raised up in the churches he founded. Timothy needed a couple  written "kicks in the pants" along the way as well.

If GC is currently looking for a Type of person to train,  one who wouldn't have any pre-conceived notions and bad habits to unlearn, one who vows loyalty to the end, then things are indeed going downhill beyond what they were.

If that is the case, it makes perfect human sense. Most  spiritual dictatorships run that way.  Open your eyes a little wider and you'll see that dynamic in operation in many churches, many companies,many governments, and even many families.

[An ex-GCM pastor]

Do you remember the movie, Eyes Wide Shut with Tom Cruise?  That is what it was like for me as a pastor at GCM.  I could never know which way was up.  We had always followed one particular leader in our GCM section.  I have left and now go to a better church.  I am in recovery.  I am happier now.  For those who read this forum, life was not so easy being a pastor there.  It was harder on my wife.  We've been reading this blog/forum for quite sometime now.  It's very refreshing to read that others had the same feelings, even from long ago.

-An ex-GCM Pastor