Presumption of Innocence

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[araignee19]

As I have been reading posts over the past couple of weeks regarding the accusations by Suzanne towards Mark Darling, I can’t help but be rather frustrated and disheartened. I think people on both sides are crossing lines, and making judgments and arguments before the facts are known. I need to say my two cents: Please Stop! Hold off on your comments until all the facts are out. Be patient!

I hope the truth comes out, whatever it may be. But look, we do NOT have all the facts yet. We just found out about a few details not long ago, and evidence on both sides is no doubt being gathered, but people are already deciding who to believe based on partial evidence and “character.” People on both sides are digging their feet in, which is only going to make it that much harder to find the truth, to accept the truth when it does come out, and to implement whatever actions are appropriate.

I personally think it is good to heavily question both sides in a situation like this, but hold your judgment until all the facts are known, for goodness sake! I do think sometimes in our culture of "guilty if accused" we need a reminder that it is actually "innocent until proven guilty." There is tremendous value to the presumption of innocence, as it serves as a safeguard against using false accusations against innocent people.

Personally, I doubt Suzanne has any reason to lie, and is likely telling the truth. But guess what, I know I have my biases against those in GCx, and I am aware that could incorrectly influence my gut reaction. I don’t know Suzanne personally, and I don’t know Mark D. personally. Also, even if I did know them both well, we never really know anyone, do we? It is extremely unwise to base your judgments on character alone, especially when we all know more details are coming.
 
Here is the ultimate point to my post: In the majority of cases of sexual abuse accusations, I think it is very likely the accuser is telling the truth. However, even if 99.9% of the accusations turned out to be true, there are still some innocent people who get caught up in an accusation. This could be a true mistake, revenge, attention seeking, or any number of other issues. But, just like in any other accusation of crime or misconduct, in order to avoid hurting those innocent people in the cases where the accuser is actually lying with the intent to harm someone, we need to be careful to evaluate all cases before passing judgment.

Especially as Christians, we do need to treat accusations of sexual misconduct, of any sort, extremely seriously, but also extremely carefully. If we don’t, guess what? We just weaponized those accusations, and it will be turned against people you love eventually. I think some on this forum, on both sides, could benefit from remembering this.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

[Digital Lynch Mob]

I wholeheartedly agree!

[araignee19]

Just so we are clear, this was directed at you as much as anyone else on here. You have presumed Suzanne's guilt as a false accuser and liar. That is also wrong. Hold your judgments on her and Mark both until the facts are aired.

[jeromydaviddarling]

Just so we are clear, this was directed at you as much as anyone else on here. You have presumed Suzanne's guilt as a false accuser and liar. That is also wrong. Hold your judgments on her and Mark both until the facts are aired.

Um, the facts were aired - right on this forum:
http://forum.gcmwarning.com/people-and-places-of-gc/the-reckoning/

[Digital Lynch Mob]

It's a sad world where defending people from accusations is considered slanderous

[araignee19]

Just so we are clear, this was directed at you as much as anyone else on here. You have presumed Suzanne's guilt as a false accuser and liar. That is also wrong. Hold your judgments on her and Mark both until the facts are aired.

Um, the facts were aired - right on this forum:
http://forum.gcmwarning.com/people-and-places-of-gc/the-reckoning/

 

Thank you for also pointing fingers (at Suzanne and basically everyone on this forum) prematurely. You are not making it easier to solve this situation. You think all details and evidences from both sides are available at this point? You are foolish if so. Wait for all the information, and then pass judgment.


And DLM, defending people is not slanderous. i don't think anyone has said that, certainly not on this post. So it sure what your point is.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I don’t know how many more times I can say this without giving up, but we really should presume innocence while encouraging an impartial investigation.  And then patiently waiting for results.  



Believing this isn’t dragging someone’s name through the mud and yet over and over people keep saying this.  It’s tiresome.

[araignee19]

I don’t know how many more times I can say this without giving up, but we really should presume innocence while encouraging an impartial investigation.  And then patiently waiting for results.  


Believing this isn’t dragging someone’s name through the mud and yet over and over people keep saying this.  It’s tiresome.

Exactly. But both sides should be presuming innocence until something shows otherwise. Yes, this is difficult. But critical.

[Digital Lynch Mob]

Come on, go back and reread some of the posts out here. You're willfully blind to the slanderous accusations made against Mark.

[araignee19]

Of course I see the issue. That's why I started this post. Everyone needs a bit of a wake up call here I think. I would encourage everyone on this forum (and social media, which I don't use and haven't been keeping up with) to take a chill pill. Ask respectful questions and discuss confirmed facts. But quit saying things like:
1) "Suzanne is a crazy liar and has family troubles we won't mention"
2) "The 'reckoning' is coming and I hope you are ashamed"
3) "Mark Darling's victims (it is alleged victims at this point. This is important)"
4) "The facts have already been aired"
5) "My dad could never have done this because of other good things he has done"
6) "Suzanne could not by lying because she is a nice and honest person"
7) "Suzanne's temporary silence means she is lying"
And on and on...

Or better yet, just stop posting for a few weeks until we have actual info! I'd say we should be slower to comment. Slower to get angry. We should all be agnostic at this point. And stop being a**holes to each other!

[jeromydaviddarling]

Of course I see the issue. That's why I started this post. Everyone needs a bit of a wake up call here I think. I would encourage everyone on this forum (and social media, which I don't use and haven't been keeping up with) to take a chill pill. Ask respectful questions and discuss confirmed facts. But quit saying things like:
1) "Suzanne is a crazy liar and has family troubles we won't mention"
2) "The 'reckoning' is coming and I hope you are ashamed"
3) "Mark Darling's victims (it is alleged victims at this point. This is important)"
4) "The facts have already been aired"
5) "My dad could never have done this because of other good things he has done"
6) "Suzanne could not by lying because she is a nice and honest person"
7) "Suzanne's temporary silence means she is lying"
And on and on...

Or better yet, just stop posting for a few weeks until we have actual info! I'd say we should be slower to comment. Slower to get angry. We should all be agnostic at this point. And stop being a**holes to each other!

 by paraphrasing and misquoting people on the site you're doing the exact same thing that you're screaming at all of us not to do.  anyone who loves their father would be doing the exact same thing I'm doing

[MicahJoelDarling]

I don’t know how many more times I can say this without giving up, but we really should presume innocence while encouraging an impartial investigation.  And then patiently waiting for results.  

Believing this isn’t dragging someone’s name through the mud and yet over and over people keep saying this.  It’s tiresome.

AgathaL'Orange, I am genuinely sorry this has been tiresome for you.

Unfortunately, an impartial investigation is already underway and has been for weeks. Believe what you will, but my father has even less control over this current investigation than Suzanne. It was her false accusations that prompted it in the first place. He has had no choice over the selection of the investigator and has as little power over the results as Suzanne. But he is at least cooperating.

Everyone who has been shouting for an independent investigation can keep on shouting, but that doesn't change the fact that one is already underway and has been for weeks. People can assume that a lawyer, whose job it is to perform independent investigations, is not a 3rd party, but assumptions don't make something true. I would think a law degree would even better qualify someone to perform an investigation. They can assume that because ECC paid the lawyer to perform the investigation, it means that the lawyer is somehow representing ECC, but that does not make it true. People don't perform work for free. They can assume, against all reason, that the ECC Board of Trustees will dismiss the results of the investigation no matter what--a slap in the face to the character and personal faith of every one of those people on the Board--but assuming something, once again, does not make it true.

Meanwhile, my father and mother are continually, and almost daily, victims of false allegations, scrutiny, ridicule, and abuse.

So, I ask you to imagine how tiresome, exhausting, and exasperating it is for us, his family, to have people publicly debate hearsay and further promote the false allegations while an investigation is already underway. How difficult it is to not only watch, but experience the pain of these lies every moment of every day and to see them continually get broadcast on an almost daily basis for months. To watch people try and invade and distort and vilify some of our--some of my own--most sacred and precious childhood memories and try to claim that our own father had us brainwashed and that we cannot remember our own childhood.

Tiresome doesn't come close to describing this.

[araignee19]

Well, I'm done trying to stand up for the careful suspension of judgment on this case if this is how you will respond. I'm probably one of the only ones calling for presumption of innocence here, and even to me you are being reactive and rude. I've said my piece. I for one am taking my own advice and am done checking this site for the foreseeable future in the hope that when I return, more verifiable information will be available. I hope others will follow my lead and give the investigation time to play out.

[Digital Lynch Mob]

So in other words, even though Suzanne has instituted a drip marketing campaign where she almost daily make accusations against your father (and even mother) you should just shut up and let her ruin your father's reputation without comment.

araignee19, I appreciate your sentiment as to the presumption of innocence, but to expect a family who has been abused by a lynch mob to quietly take it, well that is a bridge too far.

[Boggs]

araignee19, I agree. Suzanne's accusations deserve to be heard and investigated, and Mark deserves every opportunity to defend himself. Both parties should advocate for a truly independent investigation and all the rest of us should do is advocate for truth and justice.

Darlings & friends - I ask that you advocate for a fair and independent investigation instead of attempting to discredit Suzanne's claims with personal attacks.

[jeromydaviddarling]

araignee19, I agree. Suzanne's accusations deserve to be heard and investigated, and Mark deserves every opportunity to defend himself. Both parties should advocate for a truly independent investigation and all the rest of us should do is advocate for truth and justice.

Darlings & friends - I ask that you advocate for a fair and independent investigation instead of attempting to discredit Suzanne's claims with personal attacks.

 

Again  you're not reading. Not a single member of my family has attacked her in any way. You need to read my letter. If all a woman has to do is post one thing online about a man than every man on earth can have his life ruined. I'm guessing you don't want to live in a society like that, especially if you were an eye witness to the alleged abusers true nature and knew the truth

[Boggs]

Again  you're not reading. Not a single member of my family has attacked her in any way. You need to read my letter. If all a woman has to do is post one thing online about a man than every man on earth can have his life ruined. I'm guessing you don't want to live in a society like that, especially if you were an eye witness to the alleged abusers true nature and knew the truth

C'mon Jeromy, don't insult my intelligence like that. You made it 2 sentences before you attacked her.

Why not do this? "We firmly believe that the accusations are baseless and inaccurate. We are committed to an independent investigation and fully expect the investigation to prove Mark's innocence. We will have no further comment until the investigation is concluded." Easy. You can copy + paste it, don't even have to give me credit.

[jeromydaviddarling]

Again  you're not reading. Not a single member of my family has attacked her in any way. You need to read my letter. If all a woman has to do is post one thing online about a man than every man on earth can have his life ruined. I'm guessing you don't want to live in a society like that, especially if you were an eye witness to the alleged abusers true nature and knew the truth

C'mon Jeromy, don't insult my intelligence like that. You made it 2 sentences before you attacked her.

Why not do this? "We firmly believe that the accusations are baseless and inaccurate. We are committed to an independent investigation and fully expect the investigation to prove Mark's innocence. We will have no further comment until the investigation is concluded." Easy. You can copy + paste it, don't even have to give me credit.

You're ignoring all my posts and as I just told G Prince you might also want to try establishing yourself as a person I should trust and take advice from before giving me advice. I will not live in a world where a man and a church is forced to Launch a paid investigation to exonerate a man who was accused exclusively on a website with absolutely no evidence or Witnesses whatsoever

[Boggs]

I'm not ignoring your posts, you've made yourself a hard person to ignore.

You and I have met, and talked, about a decade ago. And I've sat through quite a few of your dad's sermons and talked to him personally as well. Still, I don't expect you to trust me or take my advice.

You are exacerbating the situation by attacking, attacking, attacking. The intensity of this forum has exploded since you brought your whirlwind in - before you rolled in most participants would be very happy to quietly wait for the outcome of an independent investigation. Log off, take a break, bless your parents, and let the investigation run its course.

I know you don't want to "live in a world where a man and a church is forced to Launch a paid investigation to exonerate a man" but we do, just like we live in a world where sexual harassment, abuse of power, and spiritual abuse are things we all have to deal with. We don't get to choose what world we live in and you aren't going to change that with your anger and outbursts.

[G_Prince]

Again  you're not reading. Not a single member of my family has attacked her in any way. You need to read my letter. If all a woman has to do is post one thing online about a man than every man on earth can have his life ruined. I'm guessing you don't want to live in a society like that, especially if you were an eye witness to the alleged abusers true nature and knew the truth

C'mon Jeromy, don't insult my intelligence like that. You made it 2 sentences before you attacked her.

Why not do this? "We firmly believe that the accusations are baseless and inaccurate. We are committed to an independent investigation and fully expect the investigation to prove Mark's innocence. We will have no further comment until the investigation is concluded." Easy. You can copy + paste it, don't even have to give me credit.

Well said. That would be the mature way to handle things. Instead it seems that Darling and ECC are taking a page from the Weinstein/Moore playbook: attack, discredit, and shame the accuser.