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Author Topic: Pretense: The Church as Student Organization  (Read 51021 times)
DrSam
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2009, 11:50:01 am »

Again, I repeat my comment. Assuming Matt Gordon is a full time student, enrolled in a degree seeking program, I have no problem with him being a leader at GCL. If he isn't a student and he is a leader and he wants to play by the rules, he needs to pull himself out of leadership in GCL.

I will assume Matt is a full time student, enrolled in a degree seeking program and leave it at that.

Beyond that, Sam, and later when I have more time I will post more on this topic, but let me state it clearly for all to read.

The reason I post on this forum, gcmwarning, is to warn parents and students about the teaching of GC churches that we found false and damaging to Christian individuals and families. I am not interested in having a debate with GC people. I gave them a lot of my time over several years trying to understand what they taught and, frankly, was misled.

Not only that, personally and publicly, GC leaders have said things about my husband and me that were quite judgmental and harmful--including sending letters to our grown children telling them we were unkind, misleading, and wrong. They did not come to us first so I don't understand the one sided defense. GC leaders can say whatever they want. Non-leaders are vilified for pointing out the flaws in their teaching.

Also, pastors and other public leaders are held to a different standard. For example, I don't have to write President Obama to tell him that I think it's wrong to abort babies. He is a public figure and his comments about policy are up for public debate. Likewise, I don't have to write Joel Osteen to tell him that I think he preaches a false prosperity Gospel. It is my Christian duty to measure his words by the Word of God and to warn others I know who might be led astray by the false nature of his teaching.

I can't, however, accuse Obama or Osteen of specific misdoings without going to them first. Adultery. Theft. That type of thing. Public teaching is different than private sin.

Our church tried to destroy our family. They failed. I'm here to sound the warning.


I understand that you have been maligned. There is no justification for that. I assume you confronted the leaders instead of doing what you espouse here.

I don't share your analogy. The Prez is not accessible. If he were, I believe you would owe it to speak to him and address him. It is not analogous. If I felt your pastor was wrong, I would address him directly even if he did public wrong. He deserves that dignity of treatment instead of getting trashed without direct interaction. You may disagree with me but it looks like you project your mistreatment on Matt Gordon. That appears to deeply color how your look at all the information. I still would encourage you to speak to both sides: the university and also Matt Gordon. That is balanced research.
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Linda
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2009, 11:56:23 am »

Sam. My question for you. You are publicly criticizing ME on this forum. You have not come to me privately to discuss your concerns. Tell me and everyone else reading this why this is? Smiley
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theresearchpersona
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2009, 01:33:40 pm »

Furthermore, Sam, you're now presenting to us the twisted GC* teaching, that what's become public necessitates going to that person first, rather than exposing it publicly that all may be edified. That, particularly, is about false doctrine, I believe; yet this here is about open dubious-ness, and again, it was the defender caught in contradiction to that church's own claims, and again it wouldn't likely be a gigantic deal if he, confronted with being outed, said "we're sorry, we'll deal with that contradiction, thanks for the loving-ness enough to point it out". Secret sin, that is one thing...publicly open sin, teaching, whatever, that's another.
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lone gone
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2009, 06:13:13 pm »

IMO its time to take this to the equine region of the site.........
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DrSam
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2009, 09:12:29 pm »

Sam. My question for you. You are publicly criticizing ME on this forum. You have not come to me privately to discuss your concerns. Tell me and everyone else reading this why this is? Smiley

Linda, not true.

I go straight to YOU. I don't talk about you behind your back but to YOU.

The general principle in scripture is that if the sin is public then you confront the person personally but in public. Paul did this with Peter when he messed up publicly. Paul still went to HIM in front of all. He repented.

If you think Matt Gordon is committing the sin of deception as you might seem to imply then I say you should address HIM in the form available to you since there are some limitations. If you can do so publicly directly or whatever way you may choose.

In your case I'm not sure that you are sinning. I think you are deeply hurt and that colors how you view ALL GC and ALL GC elders. Someone could say you might be slandering but I would not go that far.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 09:15:51 pm by DrSam » Logged
ANobody
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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2009, 03:35:09 am »

Quote from: Dr.Sam
the church in West Lafayette, IN. ... Also, that church, though identifying itself with GC never was truly a GC church since they never came out of Ames or Columbus. They were pretty much on their own and acted totally apart from any of the other churches. GC gets a bad rap from these guys when realistically, they did not participate hardly in much of GC. I know this first hand and I knew Ray quite well at the time.

 Cheesy Aha, ha, ha, ha... 

I have three other *assertions* that are of equal truth value as to what Dr. Sam just wrote:
   "Go on, eat, it won't hurt you, ssssss..."
   "Labor will set you free..." [sign that hung over Auschwitz "labor" camp]
   "Hey, look, someone stole the body from the tomb while we were sleeping..."

   "West Lafayette was never a GCI church...ssssssss"
 Cheesy Aha, ha, ha, ha... 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:36:10 am by ANobody » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2009, 05:48:37 am »

Sam,

I was kind of "tricking" you there. Hence the smiley face. My point was that my comments are not "sin" and I am posting them in a public forum. You are perfectly free to disagree publicly as you have been doing and it is not sin for you to do that without following Matthew 18 and going to the person alone first before going public.

We are allowed to comment on things public figures and others do and say in public. In fact, the Bible goes one step further for teachers of the Word and tells us to test them and expose false teaching.

You are right, if I thought Matt (no opinion on Matt, by the way, know nothing about the man except I hear that he is a pastor of a student organization in Florida) was involved in some type of actual sin it would be wrong to say it here. I'm sure he is a swell guy.

What I have a problem with is an organization with a national history of false teaching and deception. As I mentioned, this is a warning page and I am here to warn students and parents and GC leaders. Discussions (over two years and with numerous leaders) have ended.
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DrSam
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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2009, 06:17:03 am »

Quote from: Dr.Sam
the church in West Lafayette, IN. ... Also, that church, though identifying itself with GC never was truly a GC church since they never came out of Ames or Columbus. They were pretty much on their own and acted totally apart from any of the other churches. GC gets a bad rap from these guys when realistically, they did not participate hardly in much of GC. I know this first hand and I knew Ray quite well at the time.

 Cheesy Aha, ha, ha, ha... 

I have three other *assertions* that are of equal truth value as to what Dr. Sam just wrote:
   "Go on, eat, it won't hurt you, ssssss..."
   "Labor will set you free..." [sign that hung over Auschwitz "labor" camp]
   "Hey, look, someone stole the body from the tomb while we were sleeping..."

   "West Lafayette was never a GCI church...ssssssss"
 Cheesy Aha, ha, ha, ha... 


Anybody,

The reason I said that the church in West Lafayette was not a true GC church is because the elders never had worked under or were trained under Columbus or Ames which were the two main places/schools/etc. of where folks came out of then. Ray was repeatedly asked to join in many areas and was distant constantly. Ray liked to think of himself then as a GC person but did not work with us. He picked and chose only what he wanted but still called himself and the church a GC church. Ken Wooten, whom I knew well and had classes and studied with at Grace simply did what Ray decided in a lot of cases until the end when there was a major disagreement and the church split up. GC got blamed unjustly for what Ray and Ken did when, in reality we had zero input to help. That is why I say it was never really a GC church. They were in their own orbit.

If you were there why don't you identify yourself and share why you disagree instead of mocking in adolescent form.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 06:21:13 am by DrSam » Logged
DrSam
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« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2009, 06:20:25 am »

Sam,

I was kind of "tricking" you there. Hence the smiley face. My point was that my comments are not "sin" and I am posting them in a public forum. You are perfectly free to disagree publicly as you have been doing and it is not sin for you to do that without following Matthew 18 and going to the person alone first before going public.

We are allowed to comment on things public figures and others do and say in public. In fact, the Bible goes one step further for teachers of the Word and tells us to test them and expose false teaching.

You are right, if I thought Matt (no opinion on Matt, by the way, know nothing about the man except I hear that he is a pastor of a student organization in Florida) was involved in some type of actual sin it would be wrong to say it here. I'm sure he is a swell guy.

What I have a problem with is an organization with a national history of false teaching and deception. As I mentioned, this is a warning page and I am here to warn students and parents and GC leaders. Discussions (over two years and with numerous leaders) have ended.

Thank you, Linda. I just think that if you think GC is or was deceptive and you use Matt Gordon and Co. as an example then you must think he is deceptive. Hence you should go to him. The implication is that Matt and his leadership are deceivers. That is all.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 06:24:26 am by DrSam » Logged
ANobody
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2009, 07:40:56 am »

Quote from: Dr.Sam
The reason I said that the church in West Lafayette was not a true GC church is because the elders never had worked under or were trained under Columbus or Ames which were the two main places/schools/etc. of where folks came out of then. Ray was repeatedly asked to join in many areas and was distant constantly. Ray liked to think of himself then as a GC person but did not work with us. He picked and chose only what he wanted but still called himself and the church a GC church. Ken Wooten, whom I knew well and had classes and studied with at Grace simply did what Ray decided in a lot of cases until the end when there was a major disagreement and the church split up. GC got blamed unjustly for what Ray and Ken did when, in reality we had zero input to help. That is why I say it was never really a GC church. They were in their own orbit.

Odd, this is the first time that I have ever read that to become associated with GCx a church must first have their elders trained in Ames or Columbus!  When was that rule of association codified (was it ever codified? or did Dr. Sam just now make that up?)?

“Ray liked to think of himself then as a GC person but did not work with us.”  Really?Huh  He commanded his entire flock to travel to Columbus for “encouragement training” the first summer the West Lafayette church was planted.  He hosted “teachers” from other GCI churches.  He and Ken “strongly encouraged” the entire flock to go to GCI conferences, such as New York, to sit under McCotter’s teaching.  He brought in GCI tapes and books, including “Leadership: Elders and Apostles,” the video tapes from McCotter’s spiritual gifts seminar, McCotter’s financial giving booklet. 

He and Ken traveled to GCI’s elders conferences (Ken even got his picture taken with Jim!).  Jim asked Ray to preview his book on apostles (which initially Ray viewed favorably, only finding fault with it after he left GCI).  In the church’s newsletters Ray and Ken boasted about being a GCI church. 

Ray and Ken taught GCI doctrines:  Jim McCotter was an apostle, all men must aspire to become elders, that elders can pick your spouse for you, we must achieve 64 in 84, GCI alone will reach the world in this generation, Life Now is the greatest evangelistic Bible study written, those who correct the teaching of the elders are to be charged with slander and kicked out of the church, commit to the local church for life, leaving the local church is literally committing the sin of divorce, etc….

Yeah, I guess you’re right.  West Lafayette was not a “real” GCI church.

 Cheesy  Aha, ha, ha, ha, ha….nope cannot even write that without laughing. 

Dr. Sam, you have a spooky way of being able to set aside the reality of what did happen for your fantasy of what you would prefer to have happened.

Oh, it merits pointing out that the “major disagreement and the church split” with GCI was caused when Jim McCotter demanded Ray take a job in Washington, DC, working for McCotter on some of their “political campaigns.”  Ray wanted to stay and pastor the church, so Jim commanded him as “the apostle over the church” to come to DC, and that is when Ray wrote his “article of disassociation with GCI.”  There was no doctrinal break with GCI, no high ground morality gap, just a job dispute with the boss.  Only then did Ray “reject” Jim’s right to be his apostle.
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DrSam
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« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2009, 07:54:46 am »

Anybody,

You have a different perspective than mine. Mine is one that is from leadership to leadership. It is the kind of thing that we perceived Ray to want to be with us but would not take suggestions or input of various kinds. He did not work with us as did other GC churches. He was pretty much on his own because of his choosing. Then we got blamed for what happened there. In retrospect I would have suggested a different kind of relationship. A cordial one but not one where Ray defined it as being "with us."

Anybody, if I could suggest that your mocking and shaming does not help to create bridges and clarification. It reminds me of kid playground politics. I would appeal to you to transcend that style and you'll get better responses from most folks.  Wink





Quote from: Dr.Sam
The reason I said that the church in West Lafayette was not a true GC church is because the elders never had worked under or were trained under Columbus or Ames which were the two main places/schools/etc. of where folks came out of then. Ray was repeatedly asked to join in many areas and was distant constantly. Ray liked to think of himself then as a GC person but did not work with us. He picked and chose only what he wanted but still called himself and the church a GC church. Ken Wooten, whom I knew well and had classes and studied with at Grace simply did what Ray decided in a lot of cases until the end when there was a major disagreement and the church split up. GC got blamed unjustly for what Ray and Ken did when, in reality we had zero input to help. That is why I say it was never really a GC church. They were in their own orbit.

Odd, this is the first time that I have ever read that to become associated with GCx a church must first have their elders trained in Ames or Columbus!  When was that rule of association codified (was it ever codified? or did Dr. Sam just now make that up?)?

“Ray liked to think of himself then as a GC person but did not work with us.”  Really?Huh  He commanded his entire flock to travel to Columbus for “encouragement training” the first summer the West Lafayette church was planted.  He hosted “teachers” from other GCI churches.  He and Ken “strongly encouraged” the entire flock to go to GCI conferences, such as New York, to sit under McCotter’s teaching.  He brought in GCI tapes and books, including “Leadership: Elders and Apostles,” the video tapes from McCotter’s spiritual gifts seminar, McCotter’s financial giving booklet. 

He and Ken traveled to GCI’s elders conferences (Ken even got his picture taken with Jim!).  Jim asked Ray to preview his book on apostles (which initially Ray viewed favorably, only finding fault with it after he left GCI).  In the church’s newsletters Ray and Ken boasted about being a GCI church. 

Ray and Ken taught GCI doctrines:  Jim McCotter was an apostle, all men must aspire to become elders, that elders can pick your spouse for you, we must achieve 64 in 84, GCI alone will reach the world in this generation, Life Now is the greatest evangelistic Bible study written, those who correct the teaching of the elders are to be charged with slander and kicked out of the church, commit to the local church for life, leaving the local church is literally committing the sin of divorce, etc….

Yeah, I guess you’re right.  West Lafayette was not a “real” GCI church.

 Cheesy  Aha, ha, ha, ha, ha….nope cannot even write that without laughing. 

Dr. Sam, you have a spooky way of being able to set aside the reality of what did happen for your fantasy of what you would prefer to have happened.

Oh, it merits pointing out that the “major disagreement and the church split” with GCI was caused when Jim McCotter demanded Ray take a job in Washington, DC, working for McCotter on some of their “political campaigns.”  Ray wanted to stay and pastor the church, so Jim commanded him as “the apostle over the church” to come to DC, and that is when Ray wrote his “article of disassociation with GCI.”  There was no doctrinal break with GCI, no high ground morality gap, just a job dispute with the boss.  Only then did Ray “reject” Jim’s right to be his apostle.

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Linda
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« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2009, 09:20:01 am »

Sam, I was deceived by several Great Commission leaders. One example (there are many). When you ask a man who is sitting on the board of GCC about a statement of error and apology written by GC and he can't quite remember it, but "thinks there might have been a statement, but it was more clarification", he is withholding some pretty significant information. Not to mention that forgetting an apology is worse than never making one in the first place. You can deceive people by what you don't tell them.

I am here on this GCMwarning site to warn people that the theology of GC is flawed as it relates to the Church and leadership. I am also here to tell people that this is an organization that tried to get between me and my children by attempting to use their spiritual leader trump card over my Christian parent card. It is WICKED and I'm sounding a warning.
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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2009, 09:29:03 am »

If nobody, or anobody, does not ask, I guess I will.  

1: What exactly did West Lafayette elders Ray and Ken do that causes Doc Sam to want them stricken from the archives of Great Commission history?  

2: Were their sins against Great Commission so grave, as they must have been, that they deserved to be disciplined?  Then why weren't they?

3: Is this another case of covering up the sins of elders, or is it another case of wanting to revise history to make Great Commission look better than they were by pretending to kick out embarassing elders who were never actually kicked out?

So, Doc Sam, you made the public allegations that these two elders acted unbecomingly.  Is that just a charge meant to smear their reputations or can you name the things they did that were a sin against Great Commission?

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Linda
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« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2009, 09:35:47 am »

Sam, why did you leave GC? And, when was that?
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DrSam
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« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2009, 10:47:12 am »

Perhaps I was not clear. I never have said that I wanted them "stricken from the archives of Great Commission." My point is that the leadership saw themselves in GC but the reality was that they did not work with the M.O. of how things were done. Our friend from there saw the issue from being inside. I saw it from being a leader watching and interacting with leaders on a national level. I am not smearing their reputations. I am simply trying to correct a misrepresentation that pins unjust accusations that were based on seeing that congregation as part of GC. I say it was on the fringe and not a total participant. Yet GC got all the baggage of the leaders' mistakes attributed to them. I want to correct misconceptions whether doing so makes GC look good or bad. It is my same feelings about the Larry Pile/McDonald/Martin witch hunt mentality. Few see this spirit in them which has shown lack of integrity, healing, and love. Just my two cents.


If nobody, or anobody, does not ask, I guess I will.  

1: What exactly did West Lafayette elders Ray and Ken do that causes Doc Sam to want them stricken from the archives of Great Commission history?  

2: Were their sins against Great Commission so grave, as they must have been, that they deserved to be disciplined?  Then why weren't they?

3: Is this another case of covering up the sins of elders, or is it another case of wanting to revise history to make Great Commission look better than they were by pretending to kick out embarassing elders who were never actually kicked out?

So, Doc Sam, you made the public allegations that these two elders acted unbecomingly.  Is that just a charge meant to smear their reputations or can you name the things they did that were a sin against Great Commission?


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DrSam
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« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2009, 10:58:30 am »

Sam, why did you leave GC? And, when was that?


Basically, the "rest of the story" is a process of discovering what "healthy" looked like. Teaching it to my congregation. Having my leaders dislike the implications of changing faulty discipleship paradigms, having a "National Leader" come down and basically give my leaders his blessings. I was forced out of the church I started. I confronted the national leader on various occasions for his "divisiveness" and intent. He never admitted to it even in front of a whole board meeting where I also confronted. I was pushed out of the system. My heart was broken, angry, and resentful. I worked through all of that and healed. I can bless them while being glad that God used all of that to take me to a better and healthier place. I wish them God's best. I am enjoying God's greater blessings for my life at this time. I have retooled myself and my friends are healthier people today. That's the "rest of the story."
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« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2009, 11:26:04 am »

Quote
My point is that the leadership saw themselves in GC but the reality was that they did not work with the M.O. of how things were done.

So what you are saying is that they were "too autonomous"?
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Linda
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« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2009, 11:27:20 am »

Quote
My point is that the leadership saw themselves in GC but the reality was that they did not work with the M.O. of how things were done. Our friend from there saw the issue from being inside. I saw it from being a leader watching and interacting with leaders on a national level.
Interesting. You know, I seem to remember that GC says that all churches are "local" churches and independent of GC (association vs. denomination), so wouldn't it follow that a local congregation doesn't have to follow the M.O. of the national leaders? It seems that if the national leaders control the local assemblies they should be up front about that and not say that the local churches are independent.

Quote
I was forced out of the church I started. I confronted the national leader on various occasions for his "divisiveness" and intent. He never admitted to it even in front of a whole board meeting where I also confronted. I was pushed out of the system. My heart was broken, angry, and resentful.
I'm sorry, Sam.

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DrSam
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« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2009, 12:08:20 pm »

Quote
My point is that the leadership saw themselves in GC but the reality was that they did not work with the M.O. of how things were done.

So what you are saying is that they were "too autonomous"?

During my conversations with this National Leader, he kept on emphasizing that he was simply advising but I pressed that his "advising" gave the blessing to my men to do a mutiny and throw me off the ship. I also pointed to him that he did absolutely NOTHING to stop them from "trashing" me. He turned a deaf ear. That's why I took it all the way to the board and confronted him there and requested that he be removed and given other administrative posts. My argument was that he has a history of manhandling, not only me but other churches and pastors. I made a point of saying that he did not know how to pastor pastors. My words fell on deaf ears, pretty much. I went to confront others and the organization with a list of stuff. Nothing was done, of course. I moved on very disappointed with them.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 12:12:52 pm by DrSam » Logged
DrSam
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« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2009, 12:15:46 pm »

Quote
My point is that the leadership saw themselves in GC but the reality was that they did not work with the M.O. of how things were done. Our friend from there saw the issue from being inside. I saw it from being a leader watching and interacting with leaders on a national level.
Interesting. You know, I seem to remember that GC says that all churches are "local" churches and independent of GC (association vs. denomination), so wouldn't it follow that a local congregation doesn't have to follow the M.O. of the national leaders? It seems that if the national leaders control the local assemblies they should be up front about that and not say that the local churches are independent.

Quote
I was forced out of the church I started. I confronted the national leader on various occasions for his "divisiveness" and intent. He never admitted to it even in front of a whole board meeting where I also confronted. I was pushed out of the system. My heart was broken, angry, and resentful.
I'm sorry, Sam.

Thank you, Linda. The "Sun" finally came out. I am sad for them but glad I'm out and moving forward with my life.
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