Question about son in college

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[Angry]

Qwex -

I think the statements made above by "randomous" should be enough to convince you to have a straightforward discussion with your son regarding this manipulative and authoritarian group.  Perhaps this upcoming Thanksgiving weekend will provide an opportunity for you to sit your son down and express any uneasiness which you may have.

Here is a link to the "apology paper" randomous refers to.  It may be beneficial to have your son read it and ask him to truthfully look for any similiarities to his experiences (if he refuses to read it or only reads 2 or 3 paragraphs, you've got BIG problems)
http://www.gcmwarning.com/Articles/Weaknesses%20Paper.html

This link is to the wikipedia entry for part of this group (they run under several pseudonames)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commission_Association

Our prayers will be with your family this week.

Angry

[randomous]

You commit the either or fallacy yourself when you mention the Spirit leading you to change churches as being opposed to what I said.

Huh?

You accused me of an "either-or fallacy".  I was saying that you did the exact same thing by implying that it was either follow the Holy Spirit or submit to your pastor, that you couldn't do both.  

It's not changing churches that's the issue. It's unilaterally doing so. If you're serious about following the Scripture and submitting to your elders, you know what you should do in that situation? You should go to the pastor(s), say "hey, I know you're accountable for my life, I really feel like the Spirit is leading me to location X for these specific reasons, here's why I feel that's God's leading, before I make a decision I just wanted to get your counsel and ask how you'd feel about that and if you'd send me from here to pursue this."

This is blasphemy.

How in the world is this blasphemy?  I'd really like to know - weren't we just discussing throwing things like this out without pointing to any reason or Scripture?

Finally, you say:

We should not be saying "we're the only true church, follow us". Portions of GC did that in the past, and that's why that topic is in the apology. The idea of committing to people and to the local church is all over Scripture, but the caution is against setting one up as superior to another and opposed to others, not against specific committment.

GCM students are taught:

Now, there is, of course, maybe a unique exception within "our movement" and it's a beautiful thing it's why some of us moved to different cities, big metropolitan areas. One, you may need a job and you can still stay linked with Great Commission Churches because you can find one in that city.

Secondly, you may be leaving your local church to go to college to join another Great Commission Church that's like minded and I think that will equally accomplish the same thing.

I rest my case.

That quote isn't setting up GCC vs other churches, but encouraging committment to a specific group, which again is not the same.  Ministers do it most denominations - are you ready to condemn them?  Denominations are ok, but divisions are not.  If GCC ever says that they're the only true church again, then you have my permission to go nuts.

[Linda]

I understand that some, as they've stated, don't believe the Bible to be true,

I believe the Bible to be true and authoritative and the final word.

Sola scriptura, that's me.

I can't recall anyone here saying they don't believe the Bible to be true. This comment seems like a broad brushed ad hominem attack on the forum which, by the way, if you scroll up you will see is a forum for former GCMers to discuss problems.

We're ex-GCM (aka GCI, GCAC, GCC) church members who want to discuss
problems we've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

The administrators have shown great grace and patience in letting comments of rebuke from current GCMers, like you, be posted.

[randomous]

If you really want me to find the quotes I can do so, but there have been at least 2 people that have stated they don't believe the Bible to be completely true or authoritative.  It wasn't a broad attack.  For the rest you can refer to my comment in between your two.

[Linda]

but encouraging committment to a specific group

My point exactly.

There is one bride. As John Piper wisely said, "Jesus is not a polygamist."

There is one Church.

While you may be more aware of the needs of those Christians that you worship with on a weekly basis in your local church, you are no less obligated to love all who name the name of Christ as their Savior.

If you show favoritism to one local church, association, or denomination, you are dividing the Bride.

If you tell people who move to different cities, that they should stick with only churches that are in your association of churches (which is what was being done when students were told to only go to cities with GCM churches), you are causing division.

[namaste]

If you really want me to find the quotes I can do so, but there have been at least 2 people that have stated they don't believe the Bible to be completely true or authoritative.  It wasn't a broad attack.  For the rest you can refer to my comment in between your two.

Okay, so...bringing this back around to the point of the topic...

WTF does this have to do with the OP's concerns about her child going on a GC-sponsored STM?

The consensus of the ex-GCers seems to be that STMs can be a good experience, but that the parents of the student going need to be aware of the motivations of those in charge of supervising the trip.

The consensus of randonmous (who is allegedly on staff with GCx), is that STMs are a great experience, a springboard for full-time missions work, and that if the worst a parent has to worry about is their kid ditching school to do missions work, that's no biggie.  Also, randomous has done a better job than the rest of us ever could at articulating just what an authoritarian, controlling, and generally FUBAR-ed group GCx is.

Did I get that about right?  :lol:

PS- Randomous, I realize you probably sincerely believe the stuff you're posting here, but I've got to tell ya buddy, the rest of the world that is not GC-affiliated thinks it's screwed up (and with darn good reason).  It's not about attacking your beliefs, the authority of the Bible, or anything else.  It's about GC's manipulative and controlling tactics.

Perhaps you don't realize it, but you've committed a "red herring."  When someone points out issues with GCx, you come along behind them and change the subject, proclaiming that anyone who disagrees with you rejects the authority of scripture.

Trust me- you're not winning any converts.  You're doing more harm to GC's reputation than we ever could.

The difference between you and me, randomous, has nothing to do with the authority (or inerrancy) of scripture.  The difference is that I know what sh!t smells like, and apparently you don't.

Edited to add: I should give credit where credit is due.  That's pretty slick, intimating that anyone that disagrees with your/GCx's bizarre views on authority and church loyalty reject the authority of scripture.

So...is that Joshua Harris book the new GCx book du jour?  Sorry, it just cracks me up that you think what Joshua Harris wrote in some book is supposed to be compelling.

Isn't that the loon who had some pretty wacked out views about dating in general?  You know, the wacked out views that GCx apologized for in the 1991 "error paper?"

Are you telling me that now, even though they promised to take a break on the dating stuff, they've simply decided to apply their crazy views on dating to the GCx churches in general?

[Truth Lover]

November 20, 2007

Dear QWEX (Virginia Parent),

I am glad to know you are concerned about your college-aged son enough to check out what group he is involved with and that you found this forum to help educate yourself and him about this college Christian group.  While I do not have first hand knowledge of your son's particular campus group (GC) ~ and yes, all the GC campus and community churches can be very different indeed, I would add my voice to others here that it would be better for your son to be in another campus Christian group, other than GC.  

This is because GC in general is not very deep theologically, so if someone is a new Christian they can for a while enjoy the fellowship and teaching, perhaps not being able to discern where the errors are.  But later, once deep friendships have been formed, it would be harder to leave because of the emphasis put on ones to submit and follow them, apart from what the Bible actually teaches many times.  I gave my story over at the "Hellos & Testimonies" and it will help you to read it, I think.  

We would not allow our children to be in this group ~ there are better ones.  Usually the subtle teaching errors are more in what is left out, as well as what is mis-interpreted.  These errors manifest themselves in how evangelism is done, how the pastors view their role, and how they believe the people should live their lives.  Again, their definitions are not always Biblical and therefore lead ones astray.  One of the main errors is that they do not teach properly what the Bible says about the sovereignty of God in everything, including salvation.  So they, as well as other groups who do not believe what the Bible teaches regarding this, tend to be more authoritative ~ seeing themselves as in control and needing to be creative and put pressure on ones to do certain things in "relevant" ways in order to bring about "salvations".  When ones believe man is sovereign in salvation then the idea of just following the Bible about what the church, pastors, & people are to do seems old fashioned and too simplistic.  

Well, that's all I'll say for now.  Just remember that the Christian life carries out far beyond college, and when ones are ready for the "meat" understanding of certain Biblical doctrines instead of just the "milk" understanding ~ they will be discouraged from learning more about God and His Word in many of the GC churches.  I know this.  That is the main danger I am warning you of here.  But God says:  "Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."  1 Peter 3:18

I'll continue praying for you in this ~ for God's wisdom and discernment, and grace and peace.  I care very much for all the people here on this site so I am thankful for the privilege to pray and encourage everyone here.  I am thankful for this site as I know it is serving God's purpose in helping ones to learn about different GC churches, and perhaps also leading ones to better places to worship and serve the God we love. Only by the grace of God have I grown in grace, knowledge and discernment, and still have a long ways to go.  But I am thankful for what He has graciously taught me and how He continues to grow me and our family.  To Him be all the glory!

[Linda]

I was saying that you did the exact same thing by implying that it was either follow the Holy Spirit or submit to your pastor, that you couldn't do both.

I never said that the Holy Spirit told us to go. I was listing legitimate reasons that someone might leave a church. Frankly, the false teaching reason is the reason we left (after one long 10 year date)!

How in the world is this blasphemy?

Definition of blasphemy: The act of insulting or showing contempt for God. The act of claiming the attributes of diety.

If you believe that you are the mediator between man and God, and that God speaks only through elders on matters of personal decisions not involving sin (a pastor's authority is moral authority to boldly preach against sin), whether you mean to or not, you are acting like God and taking on authority you do not have.

This is a serious thing, Randomous, and something that will need to be accounted for one day. It is blasphemy to say you speak for God and people have to obey you in personal matters (as opposed to matters of sin) just because you are a pastor.

Ministers do it most denominations - are you ready to condemn them?

I guess some ministers might do this. I've never heard it. This is totally off the point. A mixture of red herring, and appeal to the people.

[GC Big Names]

Hi Virginia Parent,

I think that if you are thinking long term, your son should consider involving himself in another Christian Community.  My experience of GCM took place from around 2001-2005. In other words, very recently. Many of the issues in the 1991 apology still very much existed when I was there as late as 2005.

Rather than going through all of the issues I experienced here, if you want to know more about my experience, I posted about it on this forum under the title "H2O Orlando" in General Discussion. But, I will at least post here that the GCM church I was in was not very sensitive (sometimes extremely insensitive) to a student's academic responsibilities or future goals not related to vocational-ministry.

Are there other churches in the area you could have your son check out?
Perhaps understanding my experience, will help you and your son make the decision. God Bless you and your son as you pursue the best place for him.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Randomous... seriously?  You think you should ask your pastors whether or not you should leave or move away?  The thought of living like this again makes me feel like a prisoner in a cage.  The Christian life is so much more free than that!  I may ask a wise person for advice, but I certainly don't feel that I need to obey every single piece of advice they give.  Some wise people have given me really bad advice!  If you feel you need to obey everything, you are limiting the possibility that God may be directing you personally.

After reading the posts by Randomous... I have to say, I am changing my original position which was for the kid to go on the trip but still being wary.  I FORGOT how CONTROLLING, UNREASONABLE, and DANGEROUS this group is.

Suggest to your college student to join another group and do missions with YWAM, NTM, OM, or another group.  You don't want your child regretting the lost years that were given to GC like I do.

And I do.  regret, it that is.  I changed my major to be more GC-esque.  I decided to have a child on the GC time schedule.  I decided to give up many nights and even weeks away from my children for GC.  When I could have been being young, and setting the foundation for my family... instead I was setting the foundation for GC in my area... and now I wish I could break that foundation down and make GC go away!

Stay away.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Randomous... since GC churches have a plurality of leadership (or at least they're supposed to), what would you do if two equally ranking elders told you to do two different things?

I actually am honestly asking the question?  Who would you go with?  How would you know which one was right?

[randomous]

I don't have time today to respond to the many things that are being said - I would like to it to be noted for the record that I am very much not the one who changed the subject - just look through the posts.

As for Agatha's question, I don't think it's really that complicated.  I mean, you get them together or in some way ask them to come to a consensus.  Eldership isn't about rank, they'll give you an answer or most likely, they may just leave it up to you and free you to go wherever you feel God's leading you.  Yes I think you should check with them first - we as individuals aren't really that great at knowing what the Spirit is telling us, there are countless situations where it's obvious to others that it's something else guiding in that direction.  Hence the value of submitting to elders, aside from the whole "God commands it" aspect.  I see it as extremely foolish to act as a "lone ranger" Christian and not submit to your elders - it's definitely not part of God's plan, and it's not going to lead to the freedom you seek in the end.

[namaste]

I don't have time today to respond to the many things that are being said - I would like to it to be noted for the record that I am very much not the one who changed the subject - just look through the posts.

Don't worry, it's the holidays, and we all have better things to do.



Besides, I'm sure filling out all of those sweepstakes entry forms takes an awful lot of time out of your day.  Too bad you didn't win that mineral makeup.



http://bellasugar.com/678819?page=6&utm_content=surprise&utm_medium=bellasugar  



ETA: I felt bad about putting potentially embarrassing (and personally identifiable) things about you on here, but after observing how you did that to another individual, I don't feel quite so bad anymore.



http://gcmwarning.com:8080/decomm/index.php/topic,370.msg2178.html#msg2178

[Linda]

Randomous wrote:

Yes I think you should check with them first - we as individuals aren't really that great at knowing what the Spirit is telling us, there are countless situations where it's obvious to others that it's something else guiding in that direction.

I'm hyperventalating!

So just what things require an elder's counsel and approval and what things are we competent to handle on our own with the Holy Spirit's guidance.

I can imagine this conversation:

GCM elder (answering phone): Hello

GCM attender: Hi, I'm about to go to bed tonight and was wondering if it would be okay to set my alarm for 5:00 instead of 4:00. I've had a really hard day and could use an extra hour's sleep.

GCM elder: Nope, all the more reason to get up early the next day. In fact, I might suggest you set your alarm for 3:50 instead of 4:00.

Next morning at 3:50

GCM elder (answering phone): Hello

GCM attender: Hi, it's me again. I set my alarm for 3:50, but is it okay to hit the snooze button and get up at 4:00.

GCM elder: No problem. We are reasonable people. Have a nice day.

6:30 am

GCM elder (answering phone): Hello.

GCm attender: Hi, me again. I know oatmeal is better for the heart, but I was thinking a tasty sticky bun would be great this morning, just this once.  

GCM elder: Well, just this once, we are reasonable people.

Later in the day.

GCM elder (answering phone): Hello

GCM attender: Hi, me and the Mrs. are thinking about having baby number 3. Would you approve?

GCM elder: Let me get back to you on that.

Seriously, what determines something that requires and elder's approval. Please don't tell me any of those require and elder's approval.

we as individuals aren't really that great at knowing what the Spirit is telling us

Randomous, if you only knew what you are saying. This is frightening.

I feel very sad for you.

[boboso]

As I think this is getting very serious, I'd like to chime in.

Randomous, I'm glad you are at least here trying to work with us whom have had very negative experiences with GC. It shows you care and that your walk with God is bigger than GC which is great!

However, the big elephant in the room is this: the self-appointed assumption of these "leaders" having more spiritual maturity than everyone else. We are told in the Bible to consider others above ourselves and to be the greatest servants. Yet, from my experience, I was told how much more insight the "leadership" had and how I should just submit and trust they're right about everything.

This is just plain wrong. To assume this authority and expect for people to follow blindly is very counter-biblical. God gave us minds to judge what we are being taught.

Yes, we should pay attention to those elders placed in our lives. The question is, who are the elders? Self-appointed ones who you may or may not know that "should be" followed blindly? OR, people that you know personally that have proven year after year to obey God, bear fruit consistently, and lay down their lives daily?

Would you follow the Pope? or Benny Hinn? They are clearly leaders in the world and they tell you to do other things not written in the Bible. Do you just obey and trust these "leaders"?

No! Jesus says, follow ME. Man is fallable, follow Jesus, brother. If you know of others (even in GC) that follow Jesus as described above, then you should give credence to their advice and judge accordingly. However, each of us is accountable for our own lives. Jesus says He's coming to judge each of us according to what we've done. Nobody else is going to answer for me and nor should they as I've made a lot of mistakes.

Frankly, I think the GC pastors I dealt with had great intentions, but had an egregiously wrong view of authority. They need to let go of their "authority" and start leading by example -- only telling others to follow Jesus wholeheartedly. Jesus is the only head of the Church and our sole mediator.

[Daisy]

I know that some of my points are a little late, as they respond to earlier parts of the conversation (pages 1 and 2).  I was the friend J was referring to when he wrote about college advice.

On a different note, it's quite funny that you equate leaders saying to apply to cities with a GC church in them to "discouragement of college". It isn't at all the same thing, not to mention that there's so little difference among our country's top colleges that it's ridiculous, at least in terms of job placement. GC, as has been noted, does happen to be on a lot of top colleges - UNC, UF, Virginia Tech, Iowa, Ohio State, etc. are pretty high up, while others like say Bowling Green may not be.

The idea that job placement is not reflective of college one graduates from is ridiculous.  Eight out of nine Supreme Court Justices are Ivy league graduates.  Number one, two, and three schools for nursing follow:  University of Washington, University of California--San Fransisco, University of Pennsylvania.  (http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/hea/brief/nur_brief.php).  I was called to nursing (I had prayed about the decision for six months) and at the time there weren't GC* churches in any of the above named communities.  Of course there isn't much difference in educational institutions (for a woman) if a her purpose is to make and raise babies.  You see, part of the reason my education didn't matter to them, was that women are seen as baby machines meant to homeschool, stay at home, cook, clean, and make more babies (as the pill and other effective forms of birthcontrol were inaccurately equated to abortion at my GC church).  I was one of few women who wanted to pursue such rigorous study.

Try to get your child not to go. If they do go, do not be surprised when they are "too busy to get to a phone or write a letter home to their old family...." classic brainwashing technique at work - convenient to go to an area without access to friends, family, and other loved ones.

This was a common among my GC* friends.  The idea of a "new family" is quite frightening, and was very real to me.  I even spent a Christmas working and away from my family (who lived an hour away) one year, because I spent the time with my GC friends instead.  This concept is easily accepted among many new college students, as they are also adjusting to living outside of their parents homes and enjoying this new independence.  It is alienating.

That said, I think it's about time we recognize in our country that college isn't for everyone. It's been held up a goal or everyone for a while, but it really isn't that special.

Why is the student in college if a college degree isn't his or her goal?  If the student feels that their parents influenced them into the decision to earn a college degree, the influence of their parents to complete the degree program is more Biblical than the influence of their pastor to quit.  (There are no commandments about following your church leader in the ten commandments, yet there is one about honoring your parents.)

Switching churches unilaterally (i.e. entirely on your own) is kinda like a daughter going to her father one day and saying "Dad, you know, I really appreciate everything you've done for me in my life and I know you're in authority over me, but I've found one who I like more. He's richer and a bit wiser (he can fix cars all by himself), and I just feel like he can take better care of me. I'd feel more comfortable with him giving me away next week at my wedding and transferring authority to my husband. So, sorry, but you're off the dad post - I've found another." People just don't do that. (Yes, in extreme abusive/molestation cases they might). But the basic idea is that your authority is your authority.

This assignment of new authority occurs often in my GC church.  A "new family" replaces the old, thus disregarding the commandment: Honor your mother and your father.  This is a great illustration, though, of how dishonoring such behavior is to our biological family, and how disrespectful GC is for using such tactics.  I would consider this devisive.
Romans 16:17  I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18  For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

[namaste]

On a different note, it's quite funny that you equate leaders saying to apply to cities with a GC church in them to "discouragement of college". It isn't at all the same thing, not to mention that there's so little difference among our country's top colleges that it's ridiculous, at least in terms of job placement. GC, as has been noted, does happen to be on a lot of top colleges - UNC, UF, Virginia Tech, Iowa, Ohio State, etc. are pretty high up, while others like say Bowling Green may not be.

I can say with authority that there IS NO MEANINGFUL GCx PRESENCE AT UNC!!!

The GCx church in the RTP area is at NC State.  They tried many, many, many times to get a church started at UNC (and even had a staffer assigned solely to that project for quite awhile) and failed.  Tom Short usually stops there when he's doing stuff at NCSU.  But there is no GCx church at UNC.

My understanding is that Berk Wilson (the pastor at NCSU) gave up on UNC and has instead directed his focus towards UNC-Wilmington.  In fact, a staffer and his wife just moved down there from NCSU the weekend before Thanksgiving.

Thus, whoever is spreading the myth (that's a kind word for flat-out lie!) that there is a GCx presence at a top-tier school, like UNC, would do well to check their sources.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Sometimes GC likes to portray itself as the only real radical Christian group. Other times (like when they are trying to shrug off problems), they like to say they are just like any other mainstream evangelical group.

But if they are just like any other mainstream evangelical group... why do they have this obsession with only going to a college that has a GC presence on campus.  They should be equally happy with Campus Crusade, Intervarsity, Baptist Bible Fellowship, or whatever... but no, that isn't good enough.  

It's just silly!

[namaste]

I find it intensely disturbing that instead of addressing the core issue, that GCx should in no way be discouraging students from entering and completing any college they choose to attend, randomous has instead diverted to tangential justifications:

1) Not everyone needs to go to college;

2) Why wouldn't you simply go wherever your pastor tells you to go;

3) GCx is on "plenty" of "top" campuses anyway- why not just pick one of those?

[nateswinton]

I can say with authority that there IS NO MEANINGFUL GCx PRESENCE AT UNC!!!

Are we talking UNC, like University of Northern Colorado?  My sister-in-law helps run the prayer booth there for the local branch of o2...  They don't have a huge presence, and their college group is definitely struggling, but there is a presence.  I guess "meaningful" might need some clarification?