Question about son in college

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[namaste]

Ahh.  I'm talking UNC, as in the University of North Carolina.

Could that, perhaps, be the source of the confusion?

I have a hard time letting that one slide by, though.  Randomous is from North Carolina, so I can't believe he doesn't know what "UNC" means.

ETA: the University of Northern Colorado is UNCO, not UNC.  Perhaps Randomous will come clarify the issue for us.

[nateswinton]

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.  My sister-in-law calls it "UNC" usually, but that's probably just because it's a little easier to say.

[randomous]

Ha.  I continue to be amused by your (namaste) attempt to assign an identity to me.  As I said before, I won't respond to that - I've never identified myself here on the forum, as many others have not, and you should respect that - oh, wait, i forgot there's a double standard for those who don't share your views.  Randomous is a stand alone username - random and anonymous is what I am.  So please, stop guessing already.  

Now, when I wrote UNC, I did mean University of Chapel Hill.  Northern Colorado, FYI, does go by UNC as well and not UNCO, but I was referring to Chapel Hill.  I can say with certainty that you are absolutely wrong about their not being a significant GC presence at UNC.  Your info is simply outdated.  It is true that Grace struggled for a long time in growing at UNC, but sometime like 4 or 5 years ago a pre-existing local church called Campus Crossroads joined GCC.  I have friends at UNC, and CC is definitely a known presence there, with a great reputation.  You can check out their website if you like - http://www.campuscrossroads.org/ .

[namaste]

Well, I did some checking, and it appears (preliminarily) that randomous is correct.

However, my information isn't THAT outdated, as they apparently just launched their new website on the 21st of November (2007).  Although, I do note some October 2007 blog postings.  I can't find any reference to the actual age of the church (though it can't be THAT old), so I suppose I'll have to ask around...or have the file pulled in the student orgs office.

I sure hope "Campus Crossroads" has all of its paperwork in order with the Office of Student Organizations.  Usually UNC is fairly scrupulous about the organizations they allow to become official student orgs.  I can't imagine that they'd knowingly allow a GC-affiliated group on campus (what with GC's cult-label history, and all).

Here are the requirements for recognition as a UNC student organization:

http://cf.unc.edu/dsa/union/studorgs/vision.cfm

How on earth did a GC-affiliated group manage to meet those without lying (please pay special attention the sections regarding intellectual freedom)?  Likewise, I think any GC church is going to have a difficult time complying with UNC's exacting requirements regarding prohibitions of discrimination.  UNC doesn't make the distinctions that GCx makes regarding tolerance/acceptance, or "hating the sin and loving the sinner."

Finally, at the risk of picking nits, I find it extremely offensive that they list their official acronym as "cc."  Gee, now that wouldn't be confusing, now would it?  :roll:

[G_Prince]

As for Agatha's question, I don't think it's really that complicated.  I mean, you get them together or in some way ask them to come to a consensus.  Eldership isn't about rank, they'll give you an answer or most likely, they may just leave it up to you and free you to go wherever you feel God's leading you.  Yes I think you should check with them first - we as individuals aren't really that great at knowing what the Spirit is telling us, there are countless situations where it's obvious to others that it's something else guiding in that direction.  Hence the value of submitting to elders, aside from the whole "God commands it" aspect.  I see it as extremely foolish to act as a "lone ranger" Christian and not submit to your elders - it's definitely not part of God's plan, and it's not going to lead to the freedom you seek in the end.

I agree that you should take questions to your leaders. They are much more spiritually mature and should be able to help you with whatever problem you may have. HOWEVER, if a your leaders expect you to follow whatever they decree to the letter or worse start "advising” you about issues you haven't even asked about, LOOK OUT!

There is a huge difference between seeking advice and seeking approval. A mature leader should know his/her limitations and realize that, yes he/she is experienced but he/she can still be very wrong. Advice should be humble and simple especially about entirely non-spiritual problems such as "where should I move." I would only ask my leader that question if we were good friends and were having a casual conversation over some beers.

GCM has a cute and cozy way of phrasing things much like you've done above. After all, who wouldn't want advice from their leaders? Who wants to be a "lone ranger?" This kind of rhetoric makes it easier for them to invade your life and micromanage it in whatever way suits them. All the while, you think, "I am submitting just like God wants." No, you are submitting just as they want, while simultaneously turning off your own ears to Holy Spirit.  

I take huge issue with your quote,  

"we as individuals aren't really that great at knowing what the Spirit is telling us, there are countless situations where it's obvious to others that it's something else guiding in that direction."

I know this isn't from your heart; it’s simply something you've heard often enough to think so. While spiritual elders are more mature than the layman, the voice of God speaks equally to all. He is not something held in monopoly by your leaders. Their belief that they know exactly what God is prompting you to do is presumptuous and charlatan. They have absolutely no business telling you how God is SPEAKING TO YOU....NONE!

This is exactly the kind of belief that births cults or inquisitions...so look out!

[J]

I've never identified myself here on the forum, as many others have not, and you should respect that - oh, wait, i forgot there's a double standard for those who don't share your views.

Yes, let's not create a double standard by revealing the identities of GC staffers posting here.. We all know how respectful GC staffers have been towards the identities of people critical of them..   :roll: Heck, that's why everyone's so open about revealing their names on this forum, because of how respectful GC is towards those people it knows "don't share their views"!  :lol:

Now, when I wrote UNC, I did mean University of Chapel Hill. Northern Colorado, FYI, does go by UNC as well and not UNCO, but I was referring to Chapel Hill. I can say with certainty that you are absolutely wrong about their not being a significant GC presence at UNC. Your info is simply outdated.

Eh, does it matter which college it is? The point is still the same. Not every college a student may feel compelled (even led by the Lord) to apply to a college that has a GC presence on it. If, as in Daisy's case, a student decides to apply to "top colleges" in a certain area of study, and some of these colleges are in cities without GC churches in them, the person should not be rebuked/counseled/"encouraged" to not apply to these colleges. Period. That randomous is going into college campus ministry this year and yet is defending this behavior is appalling.

Everything boils down to what randomous said earlier in this thread:

we as individuals aren't really that great at knowing what the Spirit is telling us

This is the "Great Commission" attitude on the priesthood of the believer. YOU, a mere layman in the congregation, cannot be trusted to hear from God. Only leaders can. We've seen quotes from various pastors in the movement teaching this. It gets to the core of what is wrong with it all. randomous is so deep into GC, like many of us once were, that he can sit here defending the whole thing without thinking twice about it.

[nateswinton]

Ha. I continue to be amused by your (namaste) attempt to assign an identity to me. As I said before, I won't respond to that - I've never identified myself here on the forum, as many others have not, and you should respect that - oh, wait, i forgot there's a double standard for those who don't share your views. Randomous is a stand alone username - random and anonymous is what I am. So please, stop guessing already.

Galen, grow a pair and start posting as yourself, for goodness sakes.  Double standard?  Gimme a break.  Take an honest look at yourself and ask if you've been respectful of others that have chosen to stay anonymous on the internet.

[namaste]

BTW, I'd be interested in discussing this "new" UNC church a little more (perhaps I'll start another thread some day).  That is a church with a very, very, very checkered history.

My understanding, and please, someone correct me if I'm mistaken, is that when the original group came to the RTP area from Clemson (during I-85), they came to plant the church at UNC.  They tried for quite awhile, and ultimately, Berk Wilson was not pleased with the progress.

In 1993 (it is claimed that there were about 200 members at that time, but I have no way of verifying that as records are sparse or non-existent), Berk decided that he wanted to solely focus on campus ministry, and move the base of operations to NC State.  The church at that time was a community oriented church, and they were unhappy with Berk's unilateral decision.  The way Berk told the story, pretty much the entire congregation left.

They moved to NC State, and maintained a fledgling outreach at UNC for many years.  Apparently they've gotten some kind of campus group off the ground there, but except for a website dated Oct/Nov 2007, I can't find out anything else about the history of the group that's there now.

[theresearchpersona]

November 20, 2007

Dear QWEX (Virginia Parent),

I am glad to know you are concerned about your college-aged son enough to check out what group he is involved with and that you found this forum to help educate yourself and him about this college Christian group.  While I do not have first hand knowledge of your son's particular campus group (GC) ~ and yes, all the GC campus and community churches can be very different indeed, I would add my voice to others here that it would be better for your son to be in another campus Christian group, other than GC.  

This is because GC in general is not very deep theologically, so if someone is a new Christian they can for a while enjoy the fellowship and teaching, perhaps not being able to discern where the errors are.  But later, once deep friendships have been formed, it would be harder to leave because of the emphasis put on ones to submit and follow them, apart from what the Bible actually teaches many times.  I gave my story over at the "Hellos & Testimonies" and it will help you to read it, I think.  

We would not allow our children to be in this group ~ there are better ones.  Usually the subtle teaching errors are more in what is left out, as well as what is mis-interpreted.  These errors manifest themselves in how evangelism is done, how the pastors view their role, and how they believe the people should live their lives.  Again, their definitions are not always Biblical and therefore lead ones astray.  One of the main errors is that they do not teach properly what the Bible says about the sovereignty of God in everything, including salvation.  So they, as well as other groups who do not believe what the Bible teaches regarding this, tend to be more authoritative ~ seeing themselves as in control and needing to be creative and put pressure on ones to do certain things in "relevant" ways in order to bring about "salvations".  When ones believe man is sovereign in salvation then the idea of just following the Bible about what the church, pastors, & people are to do seems old fashioned and too simplistic.  

Well, that's all I'll say for now.  Just remember that the Christian life carries out far beyond college, and when ones are ready for the "meat" understanding of certain Biblical doctrines instead of just the "milk" understanding ~ they will be discouraged from learning more about God and His Word in many of the GC churches.  I know this.  That is the main danger I am warning you of here.  But God says:  "Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."  1 Peter 3:18

I'll continue praying for you in this ~ for God's wisdom and discernment, and grace and peace.  I care very much for all the people here on this site so I am thankful for the privilege to pray and encourage everyone here.  I am thankful for this site as I know it is serving God's purpose in helping ones to learn about different GC churches, and perhaps also leading ones to better places to worship and serve the God we love. Only by the grace of God have I grown in grace, knowledge and discernment, and still have a long ways to go.  But I am thankful for what He has graciously taught me and how He continues to grow me and our family.  To Him be all the glory!

I'd like to second this. This is my position now...I've felt "STUCK" in not wanting to leave those I'm in fellowship with...but not wanting to fellowship with error. The hard part may come in trying to explain to them why exactly I need to leave...because they really look up to the leaders etc.. But I can't stand watching the mis-training, especially in business pragmatics glossed with evangelical pop-lingo; and the poor teaching of wrested scripture and proof-texting...and then watch as pastors and "leaders" spin any and every criticism, crack jokes about those who'd dare correct an imperfect teacher, and so on. And randomous: I've watched plenty of people go for advice in leaving...and they're ALWAYS told NO; and I've watched people take concerns over error and they're flat-blank told "WE'D BE OKAY IF YOU LEAVE". I also know where some of this policy comes from; rather, though, than delve deep into scripture to investigate claims of abuse etc. they blow it off an defend one another, then call those little sheep slanderers and divisive.

~~An starving sheep who's still at GCM.

[theresearchpersona]

I don't have time today to respond to the many things that are being said - I would like to it to be noted for the record that I am very much not the one who changed the subject - just look through the posts.

As for Agatha's question, I don't think it's really that complicated.  I mean, you get them together or in some way ask them to come to a consensus.  Eldership isn't about rank, they'll give you an answer or most likely, they may just leave it up to you and free you to go wherever you feel God's leading you.  Yes I think you should check with them first - we as individuals aren't really that great at knowing what the Spirit is telling us, there are countless situations where it's obvious to others that it's something else guiding in that direction.  Hence the value of submitting to elders, aside from the whole "God commands it" aspect.  I see it as extremely foolish to act as a "lone ranger" Christian and not submit to your elders - it's definitely not part of God's plan, and it's not going to lead to the freedom you seek in the end.

No, GCM leaders say "I think God's heart" or "I think God wants"...and just from reading your posts on the subject where we're supposed to supposedly obey them then two elders in a conflict here would be a very bad situation...one maybe even a false prophet: or both liars. The elders are to be examples and move the attention away from themselves toward God and His Word: yet GCM even says and amits it doesn't have many expository preachers...which amounts to the BASICS of teaching: it's reading and properly discerning, applying, and opening-up the scriptures. Paul commanded "give attention to reading": yet not only can't they, but they tell "pastors in training" (not biblical, these are young unproven often unmarried men) they don't "have" to learn greek or hebrew, take-on serious study of theology, etc.: and they end up reading popular literature by men who often twist or even deny Scripture...then teach from this because they don't have the skills and knowledge themselves.