Questions/Answers on Matthew 18:15-17

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[Miss Current]

I would like to hear experiences, opinions, interpretations and beliefs about Matthew 18:15-17 from the audience here.  I have approached Jim McCotter on this subject about 2 weeks ago and invoked this scripture.  After a great start he is now resorting to "slick answers" which exhibit similar tendencies to what some of you have previously posted on De-Comm of the old GC days "Jim".

Your information is much appreciated!

[Miss Current]

Relating to Matthew 18:15 where it says:

 "If your brother sins against you,b ..."

my NIV bible has a footnote b which says "Some manuscripts do not have AGAINST YOU."

Does anyone know which manuscripts these are?  Can we as Christians follow Matthew 18:15-17 with a "brother" even on matters which do NOT involve us individually?

[puff of purple smoke]

Miss, I am assuming, given your past posts, you are writing regarding primarily your experiences with Jim McCotter, and perhaps the experiences you have learned about from others. You might be interested in a few quotes.. The first is an excerpt from an ex-GCI conference where Mike Royal is talking about an interaction with a GC elder regarding Jim McCotter and the Matthew 18 process:

"And we got to talking about whether or not we'd followed the scriptural procedure with Jim, and I said, "Sam, I believe I've followed Matthew 18 - I've gone through all that with Jim, and I'm way beyond that now - I'm way down to 3 John." . . . And I said, "You take a look at that, Sam. What would you do, Sam, if you saw error, and people being wronged, and people being devastated, and you'd gone to that brother, and you tried to get it straightened out, and he refused to hear it, and you'd gone to the elders, they refused to hear it - what would you do, Sam? I mean, would you have a responsibility to warn, to tell 'em?" And I said, "I think that's what John is doing in Gaius. I think they'd already gotten through Matthew 18. I don't think they listened, because Diotrephes had a grip on that church, and John was warning Gaius, and saying how he was going to deal with Diotrephes when he came in. And so that's the scriptural basis for what I'm doing now, I believe, is 3 John."

Also, Larry Pile has a series of papers called the "Matthew 18 papers" in which ex-members of GCI discuss in detail their attempts to follow Matthew 18 with GC elders and McCotter, and how those attempts were thwarted. Larry gave some insight his thoughts on this topic previously:

If you were referring to Matthew 18:15-17, you are simply wrong. Whether those were the verses you referred to or not, let me assure you that all of the men and women I know who left GCI _did_ go to their elders with their concerns and disagreements, and most also went to Jim McC, either in person or by letter or telephone. The problem, however, was that none of us was able to take the process to the third stage, taking it to the church, because the elders controlled access to the church. The only recourse we had was to take it directly to the church, either by approaching people in person, or by writing letters. (By the way, after I had finalized the first edition, 1979, of my book, I never sent copies to anyone unsolicited. I don’t have that kind of money. The same goes for any letters I have written, with the exception of two brief letters I sent to a couple of my friends in Columbus.) I could cite case after case in which numerous people followed Matthew 18 through the first two steps, then were stymied for the reason given above. Jim, however, became famous for his reply to any and all who approached him with their concerns: “Well, Brother (or Sister), this is the first time anyone has ever said this to me!”

I believe that there comes a time when, if people have tried to follow Matthew 18 and GC continues to short circuit the process, one might consider himself justified in assisting in exposing this behavior, even though he personally wasn't involved personally in every situation documented. The first step should probably always be between the parties directly involved, but if Matthew 18 has been thwarted by elders, eventually other parties will probably be justified in getting involved and helping in "taking it to the church."

Well, those are my thoughts. Have you been finding out a lot about McCotter since you began investigating? Does this have to do with something you've found out regarding another person and Jim? You said Jim was resorting to "slick answers," are you willing to expand on what the current situation between you and him is?

[jehu]

"eis se" in the original Greek means "against you".  As I understand other verses (Leviticus 19:17, Luke 17:3), sin against another would require not a process, but simply a rebuke.  Depends on the type of sin, though.  Some particular sins require particular responses.

[unsubscribed]

I think the key here is to understand the reason for the matt 18 process.  It is not to vent on someone it is not  to air your personal grievances you have with someone.  It is not because someone hurt you and you want to punish them it is not for me at all. it is because my brother is out of a relationship with Our Father. the reason matt. 18 is so important is that it is to bring a sinner back into relationship with God in other words I love my brother so much that it grieves me to see him in sin. If I sin against you or you me we have an obligation to each other to rebuke each other because our sin is seperating us from relationship with God. Sin is the issue real sin not the im mad at you or you hurt my feelings. The trick is to do this in love; you really have to wrestle with your own feelings before God and forgive even before you go to your brother otherwise you are venting and will not accomplish what should be your objective which is a restored relationship with God and your brother.  Jesus never used his authourity to settle a personal score and neither should we.  When he rebuked others it was because His Father's image was being harmed.  Even from the cross Jesus asked for forgiveness for the people that they did not know what they were doing.  We should read matt. 18 with this image in mind.  I think it is interesting that this directive comes after the parable of the lost sheep and before the parable of the unmerciful servant.  I think where this scripture is abused is when a pastor chooses who he wants to go all matt 18 on and what for instead of taking the matter before the church.  We were ex-communicated without being brought before the church.  it is shameful.
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[exshep]

My experiences with a Columbus church member in the 80s was there was blantant disregard for Matt  18.  Efforts to reconcile were tuned out with "I cannot listen  to you because you are a slanderer of the brethren", "talk to the elders, they have all the answers"  or I "cannot talk to you unless you repent  [by joining GC]" .   Salvation was based on GC membership not relationship with Christ.    The line of reasoning was since I was not a GC member, I was not a Christian, therefore there was no discussion.    

I thought another attempt at reconciliation was with the 1991  Apology.  My first exposure was an unsolicted  package from Linworth Road. Up until the Apology,  I had taken myself out of the loop.  I had no idea what  Linworth Road was until I opened the letter with a Post-It,  "________  wanted us to send this to you".  If the member was a follower of  Matt 18,  why did not ______ come to me a one in the Lord?  I tried to write my appreciation of GC's effort.  The repsonse was the caged "I cannot talk to you unless you repent. BTW we have a GC church in  _______ "  I concluded it was not worth the paper it was written on.    The member did not want to deal with, so buck it up to the elders to clean it up.  

I have never had the heart to confront the member  with the faulty line of  reasoning.  I cannot help but left feeling cold by the thought of a GC member  standing before the Lord giving an account on the great judgement day.   I doubt "talk to the elders, they have all the answers" would fly too well.      

The turning Matt 18 on its head still continues today.  It was also a blatant act of gossip in the literal and biblical sense of the word.   I was in a healthy GC church from 2005-2007.  While was never quoted directly, I got the feeling that the church I attended, since it was not in lockstep with the GCAC,  was not spirtual and to be taken seriously.  I received third hand a vitriolic attack that the church I was attending "was not part of GC" "fired a pastor" and "I should be careful for my salvation"      I  attempted to contact the now former Columbus church member.  The tone of the response was something along the lines of the invitational hymn  "Softly and Tenderly Jesus is Calling"  If things were that bad, let me know so I can make an informed decision on how to approach the issue.  The member declined to comment.  

If Matt  18 were taken to heart,  the member should have come to me if he were offended by my involvement in the GC church in Texas.  I would have been happy to sit down with the member and find out what was troublesome.    The disdain for Matt  18 and the operant conditioning of avoiding conflict is curious inded.  I cannot help but feel that my friend has left GC, but  GC has not left my friend.

[Miss Current]

Unsubscribed:

Relating to your post from yesterday 5-22-07 are you writing to me specifically or to the Matthew 18 subject in general?

[unsubscribed]

Miss Current
I really was just making a general statement about matt. 18 based on experiences we have had, I was just lamenting that the way God laid it out in scripture and the way it is actually played out is sometimes off.  It seemed that the people who used this scripture really just wanted to let me know they were mad and had no intention of forgiving the wrongs real or percieved.  I think the underhanded use of this and other scriptures starts at the top which is why the local pastors feel they can get away with it. I hope your situation turns out better.  We were way after Jim McCotter and yet the misuse of this scripture still haunts and disgraces GCM to this day.  
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[exshep]

Miss Current
I really was just making a general statement about matt. 18 based on experiences we have had, I was just lamenting that the way God laid it out in scripture and the way it is actually played out is sometimes off.  It seemed that the people who used this scripture really just wanted to let me know they were mad and had no intention of forgiving the wrongs real or percieved.  I think the underhanded use of this and other scriptures starts at the top which is why the local pastors feel they can get away with it. I hope your situation turns out better.  We were way after Jim McCotter and yet the misuse of this scripture still haunts and disgraces GCM to this day.  
unsubscribed

You have my sympathies and  support. I can wholeheartedly understand.   :cry:

[jtk1983]

My experience has been that GCx skips the "go privately and point out the offense" of Matthew 18:15-17. Because most people on a small group are discipled by someone higher than them, the sins of the people travel up the chain to the leadership. Leadership meetings consist of what sins the rest of the group is committing. Tragically, I was part of this first hand. It really adds to the elitism of the leadership. You feel like you are better than all the rest because you aren't succumbing to the sins that everyone else is.

I've also experienced the gossip prayer where you say, "Pray for Sean, he's struggling with ____ sin." I've been told to purposely distance myself from members of the church because of their sin - when they have not been confronted about it, and when it really is none of my business. Why you would want to stay in a place where everyone's sin becomes public knowledge is beyond me. I thought 1 Corinthians 13 says love always protects?

[margaret]

Yes, yes, yes!  Jtk, that's exactly how it was in our church too! So twisted.