re: Church discipline

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[wastedyearsthere]

This Sunday we were going over the passages Matthew 18:15-17 in my new church.  If a brother sins against you first you go to your brother by yourself, then if that isn't received you take 2-3 witnesses and then if he fails to listen then you treat him as a pagan or tax collector.

I always heard in GCC churches that treating them as a pagan or tax collector would mean you stop associating with them as in church discipline.  My new church said treating them as a pagan or tax collector meant to treat them as you would a non-believer -- in otherwords, try to win them to CHRIST by loving them!!  I feel like I'm learning the Word anew for the first time! 

[MidnightRider]

My new church said treating them as a pagan or tax collector meant to treat them as you would a non-believer -- in otherwords, try to win them to CHRIST by loving them!!  I feel like I'm learning the Word anew for the first time! 

Why did your new pastor interpret the passage that way? Did he give any reasons?

[EverAStudent]

My new church said treating them as a pagan or tax collector meant to treat them as you would a non-believer -- in otherwords, try to win them to CHRIST by loving them!!

Your new pastor has the correct interpretation.  Consider, Christ told us to love the unbeliever, to pray for them, to witness to them, to preach to them.  Christ told us to go into all the world to make the nonbelievers into His disciples.  Christ even ate with tax collectors, and was criticized by the Pharisees for doing so. 

At NO time did Christ ever indicate that nonbelievers and tax collectors should be pushed away, shunned, and not talked to.

How very odd that GC should ever have thought that Christ would want us to treat nonbelievers and tax collectors with the contempt of imposing on them a lifelong silent treatment.  Shameful behavior, shameful biblical "interpretation."

[randomous]

Unfortunately, this new interpretation doesn't fit with all the other scriptures regarding church discipline.  Church discipline is loving because it is discipline, training.  God disciplines those he loves.   Which is a whole sidebar - there is a modern idea that discipline is punishment, but there's a big difference.  Discipline makes no sense outside the context of love because it's goal is the good of the one being disciplined.
You can look up the other passages regarding this as easily as I can.  1 Cor 5 is one.  If the matthew passage were the only one about church discipline, then I might agree wiith you.   but parallel passages and context are crucial.
BTW, wastedyears, this really has nothing to do with GCC specifically.  Southern baptists, the largest us denomination, teach the same, as do most others.  It's pretty well agreed upon. 

[EverAStudent]

this really has nothing to do with GCC specifically.  Southern baptists, the largest us denomination, teach the same, as do most others.  It's pretty well agreed upon. 

This assertion would come as quite a surprise to my SBC pastor.  Having been in several mainline denominations both prior to and after having been in GC, I know that the above assertion is not accurate.

The RCC certainly holds to the GC interpretation of Matthew 18:17, going so far as to keep "disciplined" individuals from being buried in RCC cemetaries.  That is shunning by any name.

Scripture informs that we must reprove and rebuke the unbeliver for his sin, so that he might turn from his sin and come to faith in Christ.  Similarly, we must reprove and rebuke believers who persist in a public sin so that they may turn from their sin.  Just as we do not "shun" unbelievers when we see them walking on the street or when we find them broken down on the highway offramp, neither should we "shun" disciplined brothers when we encounter them on the street or on the highway, but render to them the same love we would show an unbeliever.  Just as Jesus did with Zacheus--that is how a follower of Christ treats a tax collector. 

And lest we be totally forgetful, Matthew himself was a tax collector when Jesus called him to be an apostle (Matthew 9:9-11).  Do you not think that Matthew was thinking of Christ's own love toward him when he wrote Matthew 18:17, "treat them as you would a tax collector"?  If you cannot talk to or associate with a tax collector, you cannot love him.

Now, it is interesting that a GC advocate would bring up 1 Corinthians 5.  How many times on this forum have we noted that GC elders were quick to subject their flock members to GC's brand of shunning, but even when the elders sinned (including the national elders), such as when they taught that Jim and Dennis were apostles (see Jim's video), they refused to discipline each other or to subject themselves to the discipline of the flock members.  They were above their own law and each one a law to himself.

The sin that the GC elders did when they taught false teachings such as modern day apostleship is supposed to receive the greatest condemnation of all (James 3:1).  Yet, GC twists the very Scripture that make the penalties for teaching false doctrine apply not to the elders who taught falsely, but to members of the flock who pointed out the false doctrine:

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
(2 John 1:7-11)

This harshest of all penalties (i.e. to forbid a man to live in your house or to give him a brotherly greeting as if he too were your brother in Christ) is reserved only for false teachers who deny Christ while also claiming to follow Him. 

GC's track record for twisting Scripture, protecting themselves, and making false assertions against the rest of Christendom is well documented on this forum.

[wastedyearsthere]

BTW, wastedyears, this really has nothing to do with GCC specifically.  Southern baptists, the largest us denomination, teach the same, as do most others.  It's pretty well agreed upon.   

The church that taught the scripture this way is Baptist!!!

[Linda]

How many times on this forum have we noted that GC elders were quick to subject their flock members to GC's brand of shunning, but even when the elders sinned (including the national elders), such as when they taught that Jim and Dennis were apostles (see Jim's video), they refused to discipline each other or to subject themselves to the discipline of the flock members.  They were above their own law and each one a law to himself.

This is so true.

Randomous, I've said it many times here, but the day we decided to leave our GC church, we met with someone who was on the national board of GCC.

The conversation went something like this.

Me to national leader: I hope you realize that this pastor loyalty thing could be used to cover up sin on the part of an elder. In fact, an elder could even have had an affair and the congregation would never know about it.

National leader (whose name I have mentioned when telling about this incident in the past, but I'm feeling particularly charitable today so will leave his name out) to me: I'm sure it's happened.

Now, if I were a national leader and really thought that affairs on the part of sitting elders had occurred to the point that I said I was sure of it, I would have a talking to with the brothers, tell them they needed to fess up, and remove any who sinned or covered up sin. An elder doesn't get a pass on an affair or a cover up.

[lone gone]

The whole concept of church discipline lacks one important variable....... a timeframe for the activities to take place. Scripture doesn't indicate how much time to give each step to work.

It MAY SEEM to some people that a rebuke should be followed by an immediately repentant heart. If that were the case, a person could be ex-communicated ( forced away from the communion table/love feast/sharing in the body of Christ ) within an hour of the first rebuke that was not heeded.

There is no injunction that anything go as fast as is humanly possible yet that seems to be the leaning of those who espouse a rigorous following of Matthew 18. Git er done!

Truth is, there is no reason that the discipline system cannot take place over a day, a week, a month or a year. Give it some time to be effective... allow room for the Holy Spirit to act. God is patient, why can't we be patient as well?

God has allowed us humans to understand the dynamics of our relationships to one another. We call it sociology.  Sociology can tell us that Shunning ( distancing ) is just one way to get the message to someone that their actions are not acceptable. There are other ways to get the same message out.

Treating someone like a tax collector or pagan is to not allow them to participate in or share in the benefits of the group. We are in essense saying:  "You don't get to eat the meal of the Lord with us because you don't behave correctly. You are behaving like a tax collector ( someone collaborating with a corrupt government) ,  or a pagan,  (someone who doesn't even believe in the Lord) ".

The inverse of that can be "We will eat with you if it is not a church fellowship/communion/love feast meal." ( ie. an everyday meal )

This is how an excommunicated member of a church who has family members in good standing with the church can still eat with them at the family table, but not at the table of the Lord.

That is the difference..... come on people, use some common sense.

[wastedyearsthere]

Well said -- linda, Lone Gone, EAS -- common sense is lacking!

I have to say that in my time at GCC -- I was afraid (as were others) of ex-communication by GCC.  One missed step and we were out of fellowship.  That is no way to be involved in a church!  I think they do the things they way they do (publically) is to warn others of any miss-steps that will happen should they follow suit....

[G_Prince]

When it came to "discipline" GCx has no idea what the eff it is doing. By discipline they mean shunning and guilt trips...being "in sin" or "unrepentant" means questioning your pastor or discipler.

The reasons for discipline were often superfluous. I know one guy who was "excommunicated" because he hadn't been able to pay his rent to his landlord/life-group-leader for several months. Another guy I knew was nearly "excommunicated" because he struggled with pornography and actually had the kahunas to be honest about it. Whenever he "stumbled" it was a painful confession in front of life group then later he would often be segregated (humiliated) for several days. It became a fairly predictable trend until the church got serious and gave him a trial excommunication run for a month to see how he liked it...thankfully he was able to overcome his issues, or got wise and stop confessing. What an unproductive and backward way to "help" someone through church discipline. It did nothing but create a vicious cycle where he felt guilt, shame, and insecurity which fed his addiction.    

Even more disturbing was when the church disciplined those who were mentally unstable. A good friend of mine was having "purity" issues due to a severe bi-polar condition. Instead of encouraging him to seek treatment, GCx cut him off completely from any friends who might have been able to support him. Thankfully, by then I was on to the BS and didn't pay attention to the "excommunication." we are still friends and he is doing much better after going to the doctor. Thank God.

side note: GCx has no idea how to help people with mental illness or sexual addiction 

[Ned_Flanders]

This Sunday we were going over the passages Matthew 18:15-17 in my new church.  If a brother sins against you first you go to your brother by yourself, then if that isn't received you take 2-3 witnesses and then if he fails to listen then you treat him as a pagan or tax collector.

I always heard in GCC churches that treating them as a pagan or tax collector would mean you stop associating with them as in church discipline.  My new church said treating them as a pagan or tax collector meant to treat them as you would a non-believer -- in otherwords, try to win them to CHRIST by loving them!!  I feel like I'm learning the Word anew for the first time!  

I only saw the Matthew 18 model of Church discipline performed one time while I was at GCx.  But if Church discipline is supposed to be about putting someone out of a Church because they don’t repent from sinful acts, then, considering the fact that we all sin every day, we all should be put out of the Church.  

I do think there is something to be said for "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.”  In other words, making the attempt to reconcile with another person, particularly in Church fellowship.  But does unrepentant sin (i.e. someone who refuses to stop sinning) mean that person should be shunned and put out of a Church?  I hope not.  That, I think, would be the time when you would need Church fellowship the most.    

For what it's worth, this whole discipline plan is usually never an issue.  I think when most people are involved in the things a Church would have serious issues with, they stop going to Church anyway.  But obviously, many don’t do that and stay in fellowship.  I know I certainly did, with my sinful habits.  That being said, I can't think of many people who would openly confess they were in sin and risk being ostracized and talked about if front of the congregation.  I think this would just lead to the worst result- people afraid to confess their struggles to others and just continuing behavior that separates them from God.

Another issue is that Matthew 18 discipline, at least as far as conservative evangelical Churches go, seems to focus mostly on only sexually-oriented issues or substance abuse issues- i.e., drinking, smoking and drugs.  But there are so many sins that many have a hard time seeing as sin worthy of this kind of discipline at all.  Was anyone put out of the Church for overeating?  Or gossiping?  Selfishness?  Speeding?  Or a prideful, judgmental attitude towards others?  Obviously not.  

Besides this, sex, smoking, drinking and drugs all have in common is the link to addiction.  In other words, it's sad to think somebody may have been put out of the Church because they struggle with alcohol or drugs.  But some people don't believe in addiction.  Addiction, to some, says, "It's not really my fault" and "I'm not taking any responsibility."  These are ideas repugnant to many conservative evangelical Christians.  And I know many people in GCx who were against psychotherapy.  

[Neverbeengcm]

I will never understand why these portions of the bible are often used to make people actually believe that we are all supposed to judge others based on whether or not they think like we do.  The church leaders are really saying, "Let's all shun anyone who does not believe the way I do.  Whoever wins over the most people into our church wins some kind of a mythical prize in heaven.  God wants us to force everyone to think like our church or they are not REAL believers". This mentality is very tiring and very arrogant.

Some people could interpret this pasage to mean that any tax collector is a bad person.  Maybe we need to shun the IRS and all of their agents because the Bible says they are all bad people.  Furthermore, anyone with the last name "Pagen" is a non-believer and should be shunned. There are so many ways to interpret anything in the Bible.  The problem is that some religious organizations twist the intent of the Bible to fit their selfish arrogant needs.

Why not just live our lives in the way that Jesus showed us by his example?  He never shunned anyone or encouraged anyone to label anyone for not doing exactly what he wanted and in the exact way he wanted.  He simply encouraged others to live a life of love for their fellow man. Nobody is perfect.  Can't we all just get along?