Reconciliation Between Larry Pile, Bill Taylor and GC Official

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[DrSam]

Go to this link:

http://www.gccweb.org/about/history/reconciliations

[AgathaL'Orange]

So much for heads on a platter, eh?  I stand by my words.  The damage GC did to our family was at a very sensitive time, and the stupid decisions we made as a result of the "counsel" we received will never be undone.  You can forgive and reconcile but you can't heal something that is completely broken. I regret every day my involvement with them.  I feel that I would have taken a different path without them.    The ultimate responsibility lies with me, no matter if we thought we were under some stupid "umbrella of authority or not".  I take responsibility, however that does not release them from their stupid, arrogant, and foolish demands upon our family.

[Linda]

I wonder if Larry has listened to any of the Faithwalkers talks in the past couple years. I find it hard to believe that if he had he would have made the statement he made. This is most unusual.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I agree, my husband said that his theory is that he's "hoodwinked" just like everybody else.  There are so many things that appear normal, I'll give them that, but the man (men) behind the curtain is still there.

[Linda]

Also, public false teaching requires public correction, not reconciliation. I have yet to hear any public correction from GC. These people need to make some very public statements and take down some online messages if they have changed. So far all I see are empty word.

[Neverbeengcm]

Also, public false teaching requires public correction, not reconciliation. I have yet to hear any public correction from GC. These people need to make some very public statements and take down some online messages if they have changed. So far all I see are empty word.

I agree with what Linda said. I see no apolgy for  the sins of the past in that article.  I see that you have suckered us into reading some GCC rhetoric on their website.  I see that you want everyone to publicly forgive you.  That will probably never happen until you change the tone of your posts by being humble and asking for forgiveness.

You refuse to see the light in the way a God loving Christian would.  It seems as though you want to lead us to believe that Larry Pile reconciled with GC.  Therefore, everyone else did too. Your participation in setting up the GC has caused a lot of hiddden guilt in your soul.  You tell us that you have reconciled yourself with that.  You claim to have inner peace with yourself.  But, in fact, you still want to put posts on here to defend yourself while at the same time you subtly attack those hurt by your words.  You don't want to face those you have hurt and publicly apoogise.  May God have mercy on your soul.  

[DrSam]

Also, public false teaching requires public correction, not reconciliation. I have yet to hear any public correction from GC. These people need to make some very public statements and take down some online messages if they have changed. So far all I see are empty word.

I agree with what Linda said. I see no apolgy for  the sins of the past in that article.  I see that you have suckered us into reading some GCC rhetoric on their website.  I see that you want everyone to publicly forgive you.  That will probably never happen until you change the tone of your posts by being humble and asking for forgiveness.

You refuse to see the light in the way a God loving Christian would.  It seems as though you want to lead us to believe that Larry Pile reconciled with GC.  Therefore, everyone else did too. Your participation in setting up the GC has caused a lot of hiddden guilt in your soul.  You tell us that you have reconciled yourself with that.  You claim to have inner peace with yourself.  But, in fact, you still want to put posts on here to defend yourself while at the same time you subtly attack those hurt by your words.  You don't want to face those you have hurt and publicly apoogise.  May God have mercy on your soul.  

Neverbeen,

I don't know if you are directing this to me. If so, quite honestly, you are full of baloney! You do not know me. If you are so smart, call/email Pile, Hopler, and Taylor and tell them what you think. Otherwise...

Have a nice day!

[calgal]

Great Commission is a CULT. We do not want to be reconciled to it ... their little PR puff piece does not convince us.

The scary excorcism type excommuniction is bothersome, here it is:
http://www.gcxweb.org/Audio/ExcBillTaylor-12-09-1976.aspx

What I find troublesome about Hopler's letter is that there is no real apology ... no explaination as to what / how Bill was treated. These are the only two rationales I can pick out of the text .. what does everyone else think?

Just as there is a need to restore Bill’s reputation, there is a need to defend these men’s reputation. They took action in 1976 out of a desire to advance the gospel and to build Christ’s church.

This resulted in the inappropriate usage of Titus 3:10 in some situations.

I know when I do something wrong and need to apologize and reconcile with someone, I name my offence ...

[Linda]

Since the 1990s, we would hear or read unfair and extreme mis-characterizations of GCC (that we were a “cult” or “abusive”)—and people who made these mis-characterizations would often use words spoken or written by Bill or Larry in the past to support their claims. Evangelical friends outside of GCC shared our opinion that we were being unfairly characterized and counseled us to ignore criticisms from the past, to “move on,” and to focus on building churches for Christ.

The cry of unfair is not very honest if they haven't told the "evangelical friends" things like their teachings on "giving the controls of your life to your pastor" and "commitment to your local church, or at least a GC church FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE".

Also, if they want to avoid the "cult" word they probably shouldn't brag about the "good old days". The days that Larry Pile said in his statement are "in the past". Apparently, Rick Whitney didn't get the "they are in the past now, we don't do those things any more" memo.

Is there not a cause? Could it have been an honor to be accused of being a cult, those many years ago?  Did we have something then, that may have been lost over the years?

[EverAStudent]

Larry Pile's full letter can be read as the last appendix at the end this page: http://www.gccweb.org/assets/gccweb/history%20of%20reconciliation.pdf

Frankly, I am happy for Larry and Bill as they have acquired the closure on the matter they desired.  Scripture instructs us to be at peace with all people in so far as that peace depends upon us.  

My happiness for them does not mean that I agree with Larry's observation that GCC has corrected all their aberrant doctrine and all their abusive practices.  In fact, by reading the GCC website and their repeated and emphasized use of the phrase "aspects of the discipline process were wrong" lead me to believe they have not corrected their teachings and practices as much as they would have us believe.  

Dear readers, it was not "aspects of the discipline process" that were wrong, but it was their grotesqely flawed interpretation of Titus 3:10 (used out of context) and their utter misinterpretation of Matthew 18 as a process by which to "discipline a person out of GCC" (instead of seeing it as a restoration / reconciliation tool for sinners) that were among the root problems.  It was simply very poor theology grounded in inability to correctly interpret Scripture.  All of that leads to bad practices.

What has really changed?  I am not seeing it.  I read nowhere that they acknowledge that they misinterpreted Titus 3:10 which led to the Bill and Larry fiasco.

[calgal]

Can't get me to drink that kool-aide again.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I just read that link, thanks for posting.  To me this confirms my suspicion that it is nearly impossible to have a healthy church without some sort of "order" of appeal, accountability, or agreed to set of doctrines. I think it IS possible, but very difficult.

I have to say that I've never fully agreed with Larry on his doctrinal stances or methods, and the Bill Taylor thing was merely a blip on the radar screen of "What's wrong with GC."  I'm happy if this gives him peace.  I don't think Paul Martin would have gone along with this at all.

And since I still see the collateral damage done by GC almost daily in the lives of people who I know who are hurting and need help, I think GC needs to wake up and go after all of the people that it's hurt.  But I kind of don't want them to "go after" those people either, because I know that they won't be able to just be in normal relationships with anyone if they aren't all GC.  So, I kind of also want GC people to stay over in their little corners and not come out. 

That's not working to well though as the local GC church in my area is all over the place!  I see their signs, literature, and people out everywhere.  Am I going to have to leave America to get away?  LOL.

[Linda]

Great points, EAS and Agatha.

I was going through the old Ask Larry section and came across this written by him.

Bovenmyer, Hopler and company kept asking us what we thought they needed to do to convince us that GCAC has changed and is now a healthy organization. One thing I’ve repeated to them is that they need to make some sort of public or semi-public statement acknowledging the errors in Jim’s teaching and his abusive handling of people. Even though Bovenmyer, Hopler and Co. have said as much to us in our private meetings, they have consistently been unwilling to say so publicly. Could it be that they still revere Jim as Herschel does? Which also makes me wonder how far they have really distanced themselves in teaching and practice from Jim’s errors. The fact that Jim’s books are being republished, his tapes are being distributed, etc., seems to support the notion that GC has not really moved all that far from “the bad old days.” Either that, or it is moving back to those days and Jim is being “rehabilitated,” to borrow a term from the Communism of old.

I wonder if Larry has asked that they make a public statement acknowledging Jim's errors and distance themselves from Jim and his teaching. I'm not holding my breath.

[EverAStudent]

I have slept since reading the accounts of the reconciliations between Bill, Larry, and the GCx organization.  Something that haunts my thinking on the matter is this: 

Did GCx pursue reconciliation because they had repented of sinning against Bill and Larry or did they pursue reconciliation because Larry and Bill were giving them bad press? 

I guess one way to view it would be to say, "Who cares, they reconciled did they not?"  But I keep thinking that if GCx had repented then all the rest of us whom they steamrolled in similar manner ought to be getting sincere apologies as well.  But if it is just GCx doing business as usual (cover up, gloss over, and control) then these two belated "reconciliations" are possibly not a change of thinking but just a ploy.

Is it possible that GCx thinks that all those who were abused by GCx and left for their own reasons are nothing more than drones following Bill and Larry?  Could their thinking and self-awareness really be that flawed? 

Is it possible they think that by "fixing" Larry everyone else will think this is a reconciliation-by-proxy for them also?  If so, then yet one more time they demonstrate a lack of understanding of both love for fellow Christians and a misunderstanding of the Scriptures.

[Linda]

But I keep thinking that if GCx had repented then all the rest of us whom they steamrolled in similar manner ought to be getting sincere apologies as well.

Exactly, EAS.

I think they are trying to "get around" your point when they say that anyone who was "offended" should contact them. The thing is though, if God has truly convicted you of your sin, he reminds you of who you have offended. I understand that if they have offended a ton of people they may not remember everyone right away, but if they are truly interested in restoration, they should go to the person and apologize. And, it can't be a "you did bad stuff too" apology. It has to be an "I'm sorry. Period." apology.

Also, that doesn't give them an excuse to perpetuate bad teaching and practice. They need to publicly correct it as often as needed and they most certainly need to remove the messages from their web pages.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, I agree with you on this matter of GCx not actively correcting false teachings.  For example, it has been said that GCx eventually dropped their false teachings in McCotter's leadership book about all men needing to try to become apostles, yet GCx to my knowledge never published a corrective to that book or video. 

Simply quietly stopping the teaching that you once loudly taught via published books, published videos, and via national conferences is not "correcting" the error.  Instead, correcting one's doctrine is standing up and saying, "I taught this and it was wrong.  Here is the biblical reason why it was wrong.  I am sorry for having misdirected you." 

To this day I do not know how many of the current GCx national leaders and local pastors still believe what was written in McCotter's leadership manual.  How many are still practicing what is in that book but simply not using the book in public?  After all, much of the present GCx abuse is codified in the pages of that book as being the biblical way to practice church. 

[Neverbeengcm]

Sam,

If Larry Pile has supposedly reconciled with the Great Commission, I don't see him as a significant player in resolving the current issues with the false teachings of the church. In reality, Larry Pile is really not on my radar screen.   He had his issues with the church in the past. But, this is today.  The Great Commission web page you reference only talks about a small excerpt of some statement he may have made.  The problem is the same as it always is...all of the information is not discloded and only the portion of it that portrays the Great Ommisssion in a positive light is displayed.  The same mis-guided teachings of the GCx are still there.  

There is no mention of a changing of doctrine that would allow freedom of members to openly dicuss their faith or the Bible.  Equal rights for women is not mentioned, our young adults will still be targeted as victims in the scheme and there is no mention of substancial changes in church preachings about reduced power of pastors over the decision-making freedom of their flock.

Same old same stuff is happening today as their always was.  The GC needs to address this in a direct way.

It may be a step in the right direction.  But, it definitely does not show any significant willingness to change controlling policies of the GC leadership.

[DrSam]

Neverbeen,

I would recommend you pool your thoughts together with your buds here and send the leadership your questions and suggestions. That is what I have done in the past and what I still recommend. Whether they change or not, engage in further discussion or not, then I would move on with my life. There is life after GC. Lots of it.  

[Linda]

Sam,
This would be obvious advice except for one thing. I think you maybe don't realize that many of us posting spent many hours over many months engaging our GC "elders". My husband and I spent a year and a half asking questions. I tallied over 40 hours of work time that my husband spent meeting with GC "elders". Part of the reason it took so many meetings was that we were given half truths and misinformation.

The classic example I have cited before is Brent Knox telling us the Error Statement wasn't so much a "statement of error as it was clarification". I think I quoted his exact words. He offered to get us a copy and never did. This was years before GCC put it on their web page.

When we realized that GC had misrepresented their beliefs, history, and current practices we left. In leaving we made our theological differences very clear to all the Bloomington ECC pastors. They, in turn, wrote us a note of rebuke. Also, without our knowledge, they sent a copy of that letter of rebuke to our grown children.

I post here, on gcmwarning, to warn people of their aberrant teaching and practice.

Furthermore, the leaders are well aware of this site. Some have even posted here. They don't need a letter from us. This forum suffices. What they need to do, if they are as humble as they like to think they are, is stop calling us names like detractors, slanderers, divisive brothers and sisters, etc. and start acknowledging and correcting their bad theology.

[DrSam]

With all due respect, Linda, I would also contact John Hopler and try to talk to him in person. If none of that works, I would encourage you to get some competent person who knows how to work well and successfully with trauma memories and does it quickly. Get them healed and then move on. Life is so precious and there is so much positive stuff we can do for others. Doing this "stuff" here is so negative, wears a person down, and just keeps a person stuck in the past. Don't mean to offend you. Just saying it like I see it.

Sam,
This would be obvious advice except for one thing. I think you maybe don't realize that many of us posting spent many hours over many months engaging our GC "elders". My husband and I spent a year and a half asking questions. I tallied over 40 hours of work time that my husband spent meeting with GC "elders". Part of the reason it took so many meetings was that we were given half truths and misinformation.

The classic example I have cited before is Brent Knox telling us the Error Statement wasn't so much a "statement of error as it was clarification". I think I quoted his exact words. He offered to get us a copy and never did. This was years before GCC put it on their web page.

When we realized that GC had misrepresented their beliefs, history, and current practices we left. In leaving we made our theological differences very clear to all the Bloomington ECC pastors. They, in turn, wrote us a note of rebuke. Also, without our knowledge, they sent a copy of that letter of rebuke to our grown children.

I post here, on gcmwarning, to warn people of their aberrant teaching.

Furthermore, the leaders are well aware of this site. Some have even posted here. They don't need a letter from us. This forum suffices. What they need to do, if they are as humble as they like to think they are, is stop calling us names like detractors, slanderers, divisive brothers and sisters, etc. and start acknowledging and correcting their bad theology.