Spanking

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[Neverbeengcm]

I heard about this case on the news.  It seemed to be remeniscent of the earlier post on this forum and the teachings commonly expressed in the Great Commission:

http://www.channel3000.com/news/30724068/detail.html

What Do you think about this?

The central problem here is, once again, an overbearing love affair with literalism. The Bible tells us how it is to be interpreted when it reveals that the literal word is dead and kills the living spiritual message (Romans 7:6, Second Corinthians 3:6). We are to disengage our minds from literalism and instead embrace the spiritual substance of the matter.

The rod is not a literal stick, but refers to the rod of God, which is the Governance of God's Righteous Justice or as you sow, so shall you reap. These pastors/church leaders were encouraging the beating of and actively participating in the beating of children as young as 2 months old with wooden rods. I don't remember hearing any stories of Jesus beating children of any age or beating anyone for any reason.  I pray that everyone strives to walk in the way of our lord.

[ISU Alumna]

I don't remember hearing any stories of Jesus beating children of any age or beating anyone for any reason.

You got that right.

[grandslam]

The central problem here is, once again, an overbearing love affair with literalism. The Bible tells us how it is to be interpreted when it reveals that the literal word is dead and kills the living spiritual message (Romans 7:6, Second Corinthians 3:6). We are to disengage our minds from literalism and instead embrace the spiritual substance of the matter.

I'm sorry, but the above is very gnostic like.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I think it also shows what happens when people "turn their brains off" and deaden their senses to what is going on around them.  If you LOOK at a child or toddler and see what they are feeling, you are not likely to hurt them.  Empathy is lacking here.  Instead parents focus on a perfect vision of what their child could and should be and tune out the reality.

[Neverbeengcm]

I am not against spanking children...in the right circumstances.  But, I really feel for the children trapped in these types of families.  The standard GCx "training" of children to obey by beating them with sticks instead of teaching them respect through examples of love that are shown throughout the bible.

I recently listened to an online sermon from a great commission pastor (just recently this sermon was removed due to posts on this site).  It really hurt me to hear his sermon.  He publicly bragged in front of his congregation about making his daughter (I think she was 2 or 3)  love him by spanking her.  She did not naturally run to him when he called her name.  His solution to this was to put her down on one side of the room, walk across the rooom and call her name.  If she didn't come to him, he would spank her.  Then he put her down again and she still didn't come to him.  So he spanked her again.   He bragged about repeating this process until she came to him when he called.  In this same sermon, he also bragged about how he still spanks his 9 year old sons at least 3 times a week. I'm sorry...but, if your 9 year-old sons are so out of control that you have to beat them to try to get them in line that often...your methods are not working.  I can't tell you how much it affected me to hear him make his children come up in front of the church to be used as the example of kids who are spanked so often.

The stories my wife told me about her days in the Great Commission include her husband setting her sons up for failure and beating them if they didn't do what they were expected to do.  He would spank (beat) his young infant children with wooden sticks to teach them to stay on blankets.  Dinner was dreaded every night because her husband would beat at least one child every night to set an example to the rest.  I can imagine the fear and anxiety this man evoked when he would take his frightened young child from the dining room table and spank them in a nearby room where the others could hear. He would spank them until they stopped crying.  It was bad for the child being beaten and bad for the others in the house to hear.  I can imagine the emotional scarring that was caused when the other kids and my wife could hear this man hit their brother/son with a GCM approved stick while they cringed with each strike and listened to the sreams of pain.

Here is the recent news story I am talking about:

During interviews with detectives, Phil expressed his belief that the Bible dictates the use of a "rod over a hand" to punish children. He stated that children only a few months old are "worthy" of the rod and that by "one and a half months," a child is old enough to be spanked.

Throughout the investigation, detectives say other church members were open about this philosophy. They admitted using wooden dowels and wooden spoons on children's bare skin. The dowels were described as 12 to 18 inches long and the size of a quarter in diameter.

According to ABC church members, Phil Caminiti would instruct parents on spanking children as young as two months old. One person said children being emotional, grumpy or crying as behaviors that would constitute spanking with a dowel.

The victims include a total of twelve children ranging in age from infants to six years old. All of their parents described redness and bruising as common effects of the spankings.


I am sorry if this offends some of you  to hear.  But, this kind of abuse is not what Jesus intended for us to do to our children.  The same type of flawed interpretations of the Bible being used by the pastor of this church is being used by great commission pastors to instruct young college aged adults in raising their children.  I strongly disagreee with this type of teaching and behaviour.    

[AgathaL'Orange]

Wow!  If you wouldn't mind, could you please share the link of the recent online sermon with us?  I think attention needs to be drawn to this belief. 

Thanks so much for sharing.  The more up front we ALL are with what we've heard, the better chance we have of preventing these things from happening. 

I know adult GC kids today (who are no longer GC anymore) who are scarred for this sort of thing.  If we can stop it, I think we ought to try.

[Neverbeengcm]

I had mentioned this specific sermon as part of my last post on the forum post regarding "Former New Life member Slams pastor Kurt over the internet".   The sermon on spanking was from 10-19-2008. I assume the leaders from the New Life Church read my post because the sermon on spanking disappeared at some point in time after I mentioned it on this forum.  It is referenced in the other sermons for the following few weeks.  But, its gone now.  Here is the link to the website:

http://newlifecr.com/sermons2008.php

IT is interesting that the one on spanking is the only sermon deleted.  I hope some of you had a chance to listen to it.   I did not check the chronological sequence to see what else was deleted.  I don't blame him for removing the sermon.  They certainly did seem a lot like the sermons of the pastor from Wisconsin on trial now.

[Linda]

Is it the one called "Spank If You Love Them"? I have it downloaded. Listened to it a few months ago. I remember it made me really sad for people who are trying to do the right thing, but have been misled and then mislead. Did we discuss it somewhere else on the forum? I will listen when I have a minute.

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

I will never forget sitting at the microfiche dealie at the Southdale library after the Des Moines Register film was sent and reading this from the article. How many people order microfiche from neighboring states to check up on the guy who started their denomination! I'm sure it happens all the time. McCotter had never been mentioned by name, but only referred to as a Godly leader who the Des Moines Register had tried to destroy. If I were a parent reading this, and learned the man leading my young adult children advocated repeated spankings that produced black and blue children, I would have done all I could to get them away from this man/group.

It remains troubling that GC leaders do not distance themselves from this man's teaching. They say he is no longer a part of them, which is great, but his teaching is in the DNA and needs to be denounced and rooted out. I wish they would do that. I wonder why they don't.

[Neverbeengcm]

Not sure, Linda.  I came across the sermon when I was checking out the New Life Church to help our friend Victoria Winnue with her questions about that church.  The leadership at the new Life Church may have modeled the sermon after the one you reference.  But, it was the sermon where the New Life pastor was telling his flock about how God wants him to spank his kids.  It was like he was encouraging people to rob children of their human emotions and their free will by spanking them.  It was/is very wrong.

[lacezilla]

My husband and I attended New Life for several years and always struggled with a variety of their practices, but we assumed it was simply a bad "fit" for us.  We finally got a clue and LEFT when our then two-year-old son had a particularly bad experience in the nursery.  He will never be able to tell us what really happened that day but we are absolutely convinced that he was spanked by one of the workers.  Unfortunately we will never have enough evidence to press charges - I wish we did!  And I wish we had left when our guts told us to instead of waiting for our child to be abused.  We don't spank at all - never did, never will - and our son is a happy, well-behaved, and well-adjusted young boy. 

[hurtfamily]

in regards to spanking I remember when they brought a family in from Ames they had several children and had bought a sorority  house for a dollar.  They talked about how their children reminded them if they had been bad how they were to be spanked.  They also talked about if the kids wanted something how they gave up time for daddy to work, it was have daddy time or the thing they wanted which if I remember right was a ninja turtle bed set.  I can understand explaining to a child things cost money, but why make a child feel trapped to ask for anything by it is daddy time or the thing.

[Neverbeengcm]

In case you were wondering...here is the verdict:

MADISON (WKOW) -- A Dane County jury found Black Earth pastor Philip Caminiti guilty Wednesday of conspiring to contribute to the child abuse of eight young children in his spiritual flock.

Caminiti, 54, sat emotionless as Judge Maryann Sumi read the eight guilty verdicts. Several congregation members cried in the court gallery.

Using the Bible and versions of its "spare the rod, spoil the child" passages as his authority, Caminiti counseled congregation members to use wooden objects to spank their children, even infants and toddlers, to carry out discipline.

The children often were bruised from repeated spankings, with one child having difficulty sitting after spankings with wooden rods, and some parents staggering discipline periods because of the physical toll it took on the children.

During trial, Caminiti portrayed his spiritual counsel as suggestion and not a directive, and said his recommendation involved age-appropriate corporal punishment steps.

"I think the age of the children certainly weighed with the jurors," assistant Dane County district attorney Shelly Rusch said.

Over Rusch's objections, Sumi agreed to allow Caminiti to remain free on bail despite the eight convictions. Caminiti's bail conditions include no further preaching on corporal punishment.

Caminiti left the courtroom and declined comment when asked by a 27 News reporter his reaction to the verdict and his plans for future pastoral work.

Caminiti's brother, John, is already serving a one year prison sentence for child abuse. Other congregation members also face child abuse charges.

Caminiti is using a motion to dismiss the case against him to try to upend the trial verdict on state constitutional grounds involving religious freedom.

After this verdict, Great Commission Pastors should be a lot more weary about telling people how to spank their kids...what do you think?

[calgal]

Hurtfamily does the family from Ames you refer to, rhyme with the term when one "ribs" with one another, there for when they are 'ribbing' each other?