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Author Topic: Spanking  (Read 220944 times)
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #140 on: June 22, 2014, 08:35:55 pm »

I had not seen that link.  How sad and yet, it does not surprise me.  I do hope that things have changed. 
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Phoenix
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« Reply #141 on: July 05, 2018, 05:51:39 am »

The Pearls were definitely all the rage in th 90s at Evergreen.  The Tripp book Shepherding a Child’s heart also advocates spanking but is much more prescriptive to the process and reason for it.  That was also used around Bloomington.
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Gracetoyou
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« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2018, 09:56:00 am »

To bring it back puff The “Rock Church law of parenting” essentially taught that you spanked your kid from the moment there born. If you could spank in the womb to begin the “obeying” process I’m sure they would. A lot of the book Baby Wise is recommended and your identity as a true Christian is measured by how well your kids behave all the time. I saw a lot of mini robots.
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Huldah
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« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2018, 10:20:17 am »

Gracetoyou, your analysis is spot on. Those Ezzo teachings were horrendous. Sad to say, I bought into them when my own kids were small. If I could only change one thing in my life, I believe that would be it.

It wasn't just a GC problem. The Ezzos were everywhere in the 80's & 90's. I was several years out of GC by the time I had my first baby. I was introduced to the Ezzos and their graceless child rearing theories at an independent Baptist church overseas. At one point, the advice seemed so extreme that I even found myself wondering, "What's the difference between Biblical spanking (keep repeating it until the child shows obvious repentance for a misdeed) and simply beating a child into submission?" Now, all these years later, I know the answer: for all practical purposes, there is no difference, certainly not from a child's point of view.
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EscapeFromSummitview
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« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2018, 10:32:32 am »

This is a good example of teachings that reflects the teachings of "old" GC. From "Ex-members scorn, current members praise GCI":

Quote
Delithia Gross said she was encouraged by church members to discipline and spank her children until they stopped crying.

“The wives of the church elders would tell us that you could know you’ve broken a child’s spirit, that he has repented, by the sound of his cry, like he is almost out of breath,” Gross said.

“They would say, ‘You can tell, you can tell,’ when the spirit is broken. They would recommend that you use a wooden spoon,” she added.

“I didn’t go to discipline night because I thought it was disgusting,” said one ex-CGI member who asked that her name not be used. “The elder’s wives would tell us to keep spanking the child, even if you left black and blue marks, until you break the spirit,” she said.

“Crying is called rebellion. The idea is that if the child is crying, you beat him, discipline him until he stops crying,” said former GCI member Keith Cingel.

“The idea of the perfect child is very submissive, he doesn’t cry, he doesn’t talk back. He doesn’t do any of the things that normal kids do,” Cringel said.
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Linda
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« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2018, 10:39:47 am »

This is a good example of teachings that reflects the teachings of "old" GC. From "Ex-members scorn, current members praise GCI":

Quote
Delithia Gross said she was encouraged by church members to discipline and spank her children until they stopped crying.

“The wives of the church elders would tell us that you could know you’ve broken a child’s spirit, that he has repented, by the sound of his cry, like he is almost out of breath,” Gross said.

“They would say, ‘You can tell, you can tell,’ when the spirit is broken. They would recommend that you use a wooden spoon,” she added.

“I didn’t go to discipline night because I thought it was disgusting,” said one ex-CGI member who asked that her name not be used. “The elder’s wives would tell us to keep spanking the child, even if you left black and blue marks, until you break the spirit,” she said.

“Crying is called rebellion. The idea is that if the child is crying, you beat him, discipline him until he stops crying,” said former GCI member Keith Cingel.

“The idea of the perfect child is very submissive, he doesn’t cry, he doesn’t talk back. He doesn’t do any of the things that normal kids do,” Cringel said.

I had never seen that link before. OH. MY.

" 'My marriage is ruined because of that church,' said Wanda Bower, another former member, who related an incident that occurred while she was pregnant.

“One day I was cleaning my kitchen and I wanted to clean a piece of carpet under my microwave. I asked my husband to move the microwave for me, but he refused. When I got mad at him, he called the church,” Bower said.

Two church members then came to her home and “told me I was a sinner and that I ‘should submit’ and listen to my husband,” Bower said."
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PietWowo
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« Reply #146 on: July 14, 2018, 09:27:32 pm »

This is a good example of teachings that reflects the teachings of "old" GC. From "Ex-members scorn, current members praise GCI":

Quote
Delithia Gross said she was encouraged by church members to discipline and spank her children until they stopped crying.

“The wives of the church elders would tell us that you could know you’ve broken a child’s spirit, that he has repented, by the sound of his cry, like he is almost out of breath,” Gross said.

“They would say, ‘You can tell, you can tell,’ when the spirit is broken. They would recommend that you use a wooden spoon,” she added.

“I didn’t go to discipline night because I thought it was disgusting,” said one ex-CGI member who asked that her name not be used. “The elder’s wives would tell us to keep spanking the child, even if you left black and blue marks, until you break the spirit,” she said.

“Crying is called rebellion. The idea is that if the child is crying, you beat him, discipline him until he stops crying,” said former GCI member Keith Cingel.

“The idea of the perfect child is very submissive, he doesn’t cry, he doesn’t talk back. He doesn’t do any of the things that normal kids do,” Cringel said.

I had never seen that link before. OH. MY.

" 'My marriage is ruined because of that church,' said Wanda Bower, another former member, who related an incident that occurred while she was pregnant.

“One day I was cleaning my kitchen and I wanted to clean a piece of carpet under my microwave. I asked my husband to move the microwave for me, but he refused. When I got mad at him, he called the church,” Bower said.

Two church members then came to her home and “told me I was a sinner and that I ‘should submit’ and listen to my husband,” Bower said."


In both of these topics, the way to deal with these topics is to go back to what the Scripture says, if need be look at the original text. Figure out what it says, what it meant to the original hearers and then you can deal with it.

So....

What does the Bible say about spanking your children? How should it be done?

What does the Bible say about wives submitting to their husbands?

Deal with the text.... Don't worry about what some church members said.....

BTW, the story sounds weird to me... I can't imagine a church leader saying that someone is a sinner. Every believer knows this. See Rom. 3:23, I John 1:8,10.... I can see someone saying that not submitting to your husband is sin.... But not "You're a sinner."  The person, who wrote that doesn't have a basic understanding of Scripture. BTW, I'm a sinner and so is everyone, who posts on this forum....
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G_Prince
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« Reply #147 on: July 15, 2018, 03:00:34 pm »



In both of these topics, the way to deal with these topics is to go back to what the Scripture says, if need be look at the original text. Figure out what it says, what it meant to the original hearers and then you can deal with it.

So....

What does the Bible say about spanking your children? How should it be done?

What does the Bible say about wives submitting to their husbands?

Deal with the text.... Don't worry about what some church members said.....

BTW, the story sounds weird to me... I can't imagine a church leader saying that someone is a sinner. Every believer knows this. See Rom. 3:23, I John 1:8,10.... I can see someone saying that not submitting to your husband is sin.... But not "You're a sinner."  The person, who wrote that doesn't have a basic understanding of Scripture. BTW, I'm a sinner and so is everyone, who posts on this forum....

Unfortunately the Bible is a morally inconsistent document and requires loads of interpretation. You can't just "go back to what scripture says"...otherwise we'd all be stoning our rebellious children to death before the city gates.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 03:02:12 pm by G_Prince » Logged

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Gracetoyou
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« Reply #148 on: July 15, 2018, 03:12:18 pm »

Most Christians don’t know what to say when confronted about this issue. Here’s a short course on the relationship of the Old Testament to the New Testament.

The Old Testament devotes a good amount of space to describing the various sacrifices offered in the tabernacle (and later temple) to atone for sin so that worshipers could approach a holy God. There was also a complex set of rules for ceremonial purity and cleanness. You could only approach God in worship if you ate certain foods and not others, wore certain forms of dress, refrained from touching a variety of objects, and so on. This vividly conveyed, over and over, that human beings are spiritually unclean and can’t go into God’s presence without purification.

But even in the Old Testament, many writers hinted that the sacrifices and the temple worship regulations pointed forward to something beyond them (cf. 1 Sam. 15:21–22; Pss. 50:12–15; 51:17; Hos. 6:6). When Christ appeared he declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19), and he ignored the Old Testament cleanliness laws in other ways, touching lepers and dead bodies.

The reason is clear. When he died on the cross the veil in the temple tore, showing that he had done away with the the need for the entire sacrificial system with all its cleanliness laws. Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for sin, and now Jesus makes us clean.

The entire book of Hebrews explains that the Old Testament ceremonial laws were not so much abolished as fulfilled by Christ. Whenever we pray “in Jesus name” we “have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus” (Heb. 10:19). It would, therefore, be deeply inconsistent with the teaching of the Bible as a whole if we continued to follow the ceremonial laws.

Law Still Binding

The New Testament gives us further guidance about how to read the Old Testament. Paul makes it clear in places like Romans 13:8ff that the apostles understood the Old Testament moral law to still be binding on us. In short, the coming of Christ changed how we worship, but not how we live. The moral law outlines God’s own character—his integrity, love, and faithfulness. And so everything the Old Testament says about loving our neighbor, caring for the poor, generosity with our possessions, social relationships, and commitment to our family is still in force. The New Testament continues to forbid killing or committing adultery, and all the sex ethic of the Old Testament is re-stated throughout the New Testament (Matt. 5:27–30; 1 Cor. 6:9–20; 1 Tim. 1:8–11). If the New Testament has reaffirmed a commandment, then it is still in force for us today.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2018, 03:22:54 pm »



In both of these topics, the way to deal with these topics is to go back to what the Scripture says, if need be look at the original text. Figure out what it says, what it meant to the original hearers and then you can deal with it.

So....

What does the Bible say about spanking your children? How should it be done?

What does the Bible say about wives submitting to their husbands?

Deal with the text.... Don't worry about what some church members said.....

BTW, the story sounds weird to me... I can't imagine a church leader saying that someone is a sinner. Every believer knows this. See Rom. 3:23, I John 1:8,10.... I can see someone saying that not submitting to your husband is sin.... But not "You're a sinner."  The person, who wrote that doesn't have a basic understanding of Scripture. BTW, I'm a sinner and so is everyone, who posts on this forum....

Unfortunately the Bible is a morally inconsistent document and requires loads of interpretation. You can't just "go back to what scripture says"...otherwise we'd all be stoning our rebellious children to death before the city gates.


Ok, so you have rejected God's Word....
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G_Prince
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« Reply #150 on: July 15, 2018, 04:51:20 pm »



Ok, so you have rejected God's Word....

Well that part for sure  Grin. Are you telling me you haven't rejected that part?
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PietWowo
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« Reply #151 on: July 15, 2018, 05:46:35 pm »



Ok, so you have rejected God's Word....

Well that part for sure  Grin. Are you telling me you haven't rejected that part?

No, I have not rejected anything from God's Word.

And in rejecting God's Word or  you being the sole judge as to what is right or wrong, you have put yourself on very slippery ground. Now, you can not point to anything as being good or bad.... You have rejected an Absolute Truth and hence, you can not have any judgement outside of your own thinking. For instance, how can you even begin to say that it is not correct that your parents spanked you? If there is no truth or absolutes, then it all depends on what you feel.  Any complaint is based on nothing. Because there is not an absolute standard.... Unless you have another absolute standard... and then you have to have good reasons why that is your absolute standard...
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G_Prince
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« Reply #152 on: July 15, 2018, 06:03:24 pm »


No, I have not rejected anything from God's Word.

And in rejecting God's Word or  you being the sole judge as to what is right or wrong, you have put yourself on very slippery ground. Now, you can not point to anything as being good or bad.... You have rejected an Absolute Truth and hence, you can not have any judgement outside of your own thinking. For instance, how can you even begin to say that it is not correct that your parents spanked you? If there is no truth or absolutes, then it all depends on what you feel.  Any complaint is based on nothing. Because there is not an absolute standard.... Unless you have another absolute standard... and then you have to have good reasons why that is your absolute standard...

Well actually I would say a literal interpretation of 2,000 year old document is a slippery slope that we should all avoid. I'm sure you dont actually support stoning your kids to death, but if it is, as you say, "Absolute Truth," whats to stop someone else? Fortunately I don't think most Christians would agree with you. They look to the bible for guidance and inspiration, not as a law code.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #153 on: July 15, 2018, 06:12:22 pm »


No, I have not rejected anything from God's Word.

And in rejecting God's Word or  you being the sole judge as to what is right or wrong, you have put yourself on very slippery ground. Now, you can not point to anything as being good or bad.... You have rejected an Absolute Truth and hence, you can not have any judgement outside of your own thinking. For instance, how can you even begin to say that it is not correct that your parents spanked you? If there is no truth or absolutes, then it all depends on what you feel.  Any complaint is based on nothing. Because there is not an absolute standard.... Unless you have another absolute standard... and then you have to have good reasons why that is your absolute standard...

Well actually I would say a literal interpretation of 2,000 year old document is a slippery slope that we should all avoid. I'm sure you dont actually support stoning your kids to death, but if it is, as you say, "Absolute Truth," whats to stop someone else? Fortunately I don't think most Christians would agree with you. They look to the bible for guidance and inspiration, not as a law code.

If you want to know how to interpret the Scriptures look at how Jesus interpreted the Tenak (or the Old Testament) Several of these Books were well over 1,000 years old, when Jesus was on earth.

I look at the Bible as the Word of God.
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OneOfMany
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« Reply #154 on: July 15, 2018, 07:06:29 pm »


No, I have not rejected anything from God's Word.

And in rejecting God's Word or  you being the sole judge as to what is right or wrong, you have put yourself on very slippery ground. Now, you can not point to anything as being good or bad.... You have rejected an Absolute Truth and hence, you can not have any judgement outside of your own thinking. For instance, how can you even begin to say that it is not correct that your parents spanked you? If there is no truth or absolutes, then it all depends on what you feel.  Any complaint is based on nothing. Because there is not an absolute standard.... Unless you have another absolute standard... and then you have to have good reasons why that is your absolute standard...

Well actually I would say a literal interpretation of 2,000 year old document is a slippery slope that we should all avoid. I'm sure you dont actually support stoning your kids to death, but if it is, as you say, "Absolute Truth," whats to stop someone else? Fortunately I don't think most Christians would agree with you. They look to the bible for guidance and inspiration, not as a law code.

If you want to know how to interpret the Scriptures look at how Jesus interpreted the Tenak (or the Old Testament) Several of these Books were well over 1,000 years old, when Jesus was on earth.

I look at the Bible as the Word of God.

I googled your name. Does Pietwowo mean tiny poopoo? Why would you make yourself a tiny poopoo?
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Lost Creature
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« Reply #155 on: November 03, 2018, 08:26:49 am »

As one who has been raised in the movement, I remember being spanked as a child.
I was always getting into trouble and pushing boundaries.
I got spanked so often (at least once a day) that eventually, I didn't find it painful anymore.
In fact, I would start laughing...or making animal sounds to make the situation more funny and thus defeating the purpose.

My parents eventually stopped spanking me because they saw it wasn't working...
They used other forms of discipline that were more creative (spoonful of spicy tabasco sauce) and simple (Go to your room and think about what you did).
Oddly enough, them telling me to go to my room was a better form of discipline for me than any spanking ever was.

Now that my friends and I are older, I see them starting families and having younger kids.
One thing that I am finding uncomfortable is how strict everyone seems with their kids and quick it seems these kids get spankings.
I almost get a PTSD feeling every time I am around these families and their kids...when I see them misbehaving and I know what's coming...

So...right now...i am not sure if i could ever spank my kids...that is if I have kids...
...and i have very mixed feelings about that...
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ReaperofGCM
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« Reply #156 on: November 03, 2018, 03:03:55 pm »

All of us kids were spanked brutally until we were about 11-12 which really messed us up. We would be spanked bare bottom with a big rod.
We would be spanked until we bled and had severe bruises. I have very fond memories of screaming and hugging the toilet as we were mercilessly
beaten with a rod. This teaching was very common in the GCM movement and I know multiple families in our church practiced this exact
same method.
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Free in Christ
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« Reply #157 on: November 03, 2018, 04:39:13 pm »

I am so sorry you experienced that, Reaper.

I am also sorry that so many parents have been taught that if they want to be faithful to the Bible they must spank. In my circles, small children would be spanked until bruised. They would have to plan routine doctor visits around when bruises would heal. I know one friend who thought that spanking wasn't working, so she was told that she wasn't doing it hard enough. I just thank God I was out long enough before my kids were born that I was able to shake off this teaching.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #158 on: November 06, 2018, 09:46:22 pm »

I have asked before, but if you are going to advocate against spanking, then show me how you interpret the passages in the Scriptures which deal with that topic.

Please, use solid hermeneutics and not just some personal preferences.
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ReaperofGCM
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« Reply #159 on: November 07, 2018, 10:40:36 am »

@pietpoopoo

Are you really that daft? I expected a much more intelligent response rather than referring back to an old outdated book.
Since I am not a Christian and I don't abide by the Bible, here is a great modern day article that ironically appeared
on CNN yesterday! I could care less about providing you an example from the Bible.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/opinions/spanking-american-academy-of-pediatrics-gershoff/index.html

So I will go ahead and take the side of the American Academy of Pediatrics newest recommendations that parents not
"hit, spank or slap their children".

 
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