Strangely...

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[theresearchpersona]

In the past few months I've run into several ex-GC* members I hadn't previously known (besides purposefully meeting up with one). I didn't know until talking to them about various issues with modern churches, giving personal examples, and..."you too!" Anyway, it's been sad. Typically some screwed-up, confused, un/mis-fed people who're all confused and mixed-up and not sure what they do/not believe. Anyway, I'm thinking about requesting from either a pastor or some elders at my church that they do an out-of-church (normal meetings) Bible study of basic Christian doctrine for the church-burned, and anybody that perhaps doesn't even know very basic things about God and Christ that, really, any Christian should: that perhaps any "Christian" that does not know these things may not even be Christian: typically even those, it seems, are often interested in actually getting to know doctrine when they get out of GC*: that's no guarantee they'll actually like it when they learn it, but it's good that professing Christians at least profess interest, which is more than what many in GC* sadly did, though I think they were often looking for it without realizing it: hungry but unfed, without realizing what it is upon which we are fed, because it's been denigrated, mocked, and thrown-out as not only unuseful, but divisive, or this and/or that is true but Herschel opposes it, or if we assert his truth, it'll offend those who prefer that, so we'll just teach both as if they're not contradictory propositions, though they are biblically and reasonably and evidently, not in their implications necessarily, but immediately in what they assert (I'm thinking of the GCLI leadership training handbooks here, particularly some pages removed from the online versions, but available through other means).

Anyway I may wait before asking for that, as it's been a while since I've been to Church: been depressed, tired, sick, and whatnot. It's been crazy, but it's been a good time for prayer: I was going to go today, but I've suddenly had a flair-up of certain symptoms of a sickness that, if it continues, is prohibitive. Anyway, with love guys, just some recent news.

[lone gone]

Hope you are feeling better soon.

IMO the solution to all the ?!? of new believers and not-so-new believers is proper catechesis.  sadly this solution is not highly thought of.  If our culture didn't have a "gotta have it all, gotta have it now" value system, we'd realize that many things are learned over a length of time and with effort. Milk, then meat.

 Most people think "Since I am an adult, I can think for myself and I can also learn quickly."  There is no patient unfolding of truth, no graduated enlightenment. Instead, we have easy-beliveism, shortcuts to maturity, 12 steps,7 bullet points, 4 laws, and 3 steps to completeness. 

Shallow thinking, shallow learning, shallow belief, shallow commitment.

[theresearchpersona]

Hope you are feeling better soon.

IMO the solution to all the ?!? of new believers and not-so-new believers is proper catechesis.  sadly this solution is not highly thought of.  If our culture didn't have a "gotta have it all, gotta have it now" value system, we'd realize that many things are learned over a length of time and with effort. Milk, then meat.

 Most people think "Since I am an adult, I can think for myself and I can also learn quickly."  There is no patient unfolding of truth, no graduated enlightenment. Instead, we have easy-beliveism, shortcuts to maturity, 12 steps,7 bullet points, 4 laws, and 3 steps to completeness. 

Shallow thinking, shallow learning, shallow belief, shallow commitment.

Yeah, I know the pain from that thinking: suffered much from it myself in the past--still trying to get over it, so still. : (  Anyway, I know of some very decent catechisms. The issue, though, for many these days, is to ensure someone can effectively and correctly demonstrate the teachings espoused from the Scriptures provided as proofs--actually doing so exegetically would likely shake-up even traditionally catechized confessional communities of believers, it's not accidental that over the centuries there were often complaints about the proofs in major docs say, like the WCF (even quite visible figures as M. Jones and I. Murray had some things to say about it!); that is, of course, why Christians taught sola scriptura, and that rightly handled. The distrust bred from improper proofs led to a no-proof ideology, but that, of course, is to jettison Scripture: and of course those who talk like "no proofs" seem quite willing to proof their own positions readily with whatever verse wrested from context. Anyway, that's the idea of using (yes, using) a trained, able, handler of Scripture (possibly in the original languages) vetted by the Church, orthodox, not afraid to be unpopular, to sit-down and work with people burned, and also to be patient with the deceived, in whatever way (this is often really hard), and whatnot. Thanks much for bringing-up catechisms: just because people might be freaked-out by bare assertions of this/that I might prefer asking someone to start with the gospels carefully handled, and cross-reference a bunch, and move through according to needs, and then return later to start using a catechism (or two)--or perhaps do both in tandem, letting people move at their own pace, while getting encouragement.

Perhaps I just described something I ought to do, eventually--I'm still quite hurt, freaked, and whatnot (not only simultaneously open to various claims, but also distrustful of them vigilantly: eery place to be), but because of that, and always being reminded of how deceived I've been, I not only get frustrated with the screwed-up, but I'm also always drawn to them, want to pray for them, sit and read Scripture with them. Pray for me, I've been useless, have a wandering crazy mind right now, but  think I'm going--or that I ought-- to hit the Greek and all else that's involved, be faithful in life and Church, and work hard at it.

[lone gone]

Getting back to a blessed state of ignorance ( square one) is not possible for anyone. I wish it were.

 God understands... a sputtering flame he won't quench and bruised reed he will not break.

I suggested the catechism only because I am going through Luther's Large Catechism myself... for the first time in my life. When I do find something I don't agree with, I don't discard the book. I know that Luther was fallible. I simply keep going on, gaining all kinds of good by doing so.

Proper catechesis  during the time of the church fathers was a three year process. Salvation only started one down a long road of learning,doing,serving etc.  Only then was baptism performed. We may not agree with this practice, but they were a practical bunch, reacting to the many people who had been baptised and then fallen away.

Same reactionary practice resulted in close ( closed ) communion practice ( "The Doors, the Doors!)

We'd like to hink we know better, but in the end we all have our own road to maturity that we must travel.
 

[theresearchpersona]

As far as baptisms and such, though, there's immediacy one senses, sees throughout, Scripture: I don't think we should deny that to confessors who we can't find fault with anyways, as we're not the gatekeepers, and each one is commanded to examine himself before others are examined to examine them, though both should happen. I think the control-the-baptisms had more to do with the rise of ecclesiastical interventionism and assuming it had powers far beyond what Scripture grants. : )

Simultaneously the urgency and need they felt to teach believers was a good thing back then, and is a good thing now. I also get the "don't throw out the whole book" (like the proverbial baby), though sometimes forget the meat vs. bones, with some books, the meat itself is poisoned!