Ten Reasons to Burn a Koran

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[G_Prince]

http://www.doveworld.org/blog/ten-reasons-to-burn-a-koran

Nothing says "world outreach" like burning someone's holy book. Wow. It's very disconcerting to see how many people are blindly accepting lies about one of the world's most peaceful and beautiful religions.   

[newcreature]

I don't consider Islam to be "one of the world's most peaceful and beautiful religions" when it doesn't allow freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of association, and women's rights.

You mentioned in another post that you found it "disconserting" when you heard a GCI pastor say "sh**" from the pulpit. Don't you at least find it a little "disconcerting" when Muslim terrorists murder thousands of innocent people in NYC in the name of Allah? or shoot an elderly crippled man on a cruise ship and dump him overboard? or cut off a girl's nose and ears and leave her to bleed to death because she opposed an arranged marriage? or assassinate an innocent woman in Iran while she is peacefully protesting Muslim oppression? or "honor" kill a daughter because she dates an "infidel"? or scream "Allahu akbar!" (Arabic for "God is great!") while murdering a dozen innocent, unarmed women and men in Ft. Hood, Texas? or attack Israel for the past 60 years and call for the extermination of the Jews? or stone a couple to death for adultery? or call a doctor to paralyze a man's spine as legal retribution? or burn down embassies throughout Europe because a cartoon was deemed offensive? or issue a fatwa against Salman Rushdie? or behead reporters? or strip and drag and burn and hang captured soldiers? or invade and slaughter citizens of India? or invade and slaughter citizens of Spain? or invade and slaughter human beings throughout central Asia and Europe for many centuries?

Here is one of hundereds of factual news reports I came across regarding the history of Muslim violence. This one happened in Bosnia a few years ago, if you care to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRew755Esd4

I could go on and on, but I won't. Mankind has a history of war and atrocity, regardless of the religious or national label. Only God can put an end to the fighting, and someday soon He will create a new heaven and a new earth where those who accept Christ can live in peace forever.

You have over 200 posts in here, and the few I have read since joining are often warnings about fellow Christians whom you consider dangerous. You have the freedom and the right to say "Bill Young must be dead inside" and that he constantly spews "bullsh" out of his mouth. I don't even know who he is; nor do I know the person you consider to be a Nazi by using your scrolling "SS" across the bottom of your reply. But I do know you have the right to address your grievances against GCI, or anyone, as aggressively and as directly as the moderators allow. I am not here to defend any denomination, and I am not here to defend any religion... especially not Islam, which rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[EverAStudent]

Biblically speaking, Jesus was recorded as having been successful as an evangelist by using speech (encouragement as well as rebukes against lies and sins) and by healing the sick.  I am at a loss to see Him using scroll-burning-rallies as one such approach.

Jesus taught against false doctrine and false religion.  He did not incite anti-religious fervor.  There is a difference between a call for discernment and a call against an entire multi-national demographic group. 

Finally, Islam is not a religion of peace at its core.  I have read too much of the Q'ran to be utterly deceived on this matter (yes, I actually spent my own money and bought a scholarly English translation by dedicated Muslims to read for myself).  Those who feel Islam is a religion of peace are simply uninformed of what Islamic scriptures teach about tribal politics and interactions with other people groups.  By reading the Q'ran one will also learn what is taught about their view of Jesus and Christians.  That knowledge can be valuable when talking with a Muslim.  Sadly, violence is a fundamental element of the faith as expressed in the Q'ran.

[G_Prince]

I don't consider Islam to be "one of the world's most peaceful and beautiful religions" when it doesn't allow freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of association, and women's rights.

You mentioned in another post that you found it "disconserting" when you heard a GCI pastor say "sh**" from the pulpit. Don't you at least find it a little "disconcerting" when Muslim terrorists murder thousands of innocent people in NYC in the name of Allah? or shoot an elderly crippled man on a cruise ship and dump him overboard? or cut off a girl's nose and ears and leave her to bleed to death because she opposed an arranged marriage? or assassinate an innocent woman in Iran while she is peacefully protesting Muslim oppression? or "honor" kill a daughter because she dates an "infidel"? or scream "Allahu akbar!" (Arabic for "God is great!") while murdering a dozen innocent, unarmed women and men in Ft. Hood, Texas? or attack Israel for the past 60 years and call for the extermination of the Jews? or stone a couple to death for adultery? or call a doctor to paralyze a man's spine as legal retribution? or burn down embassies throughout Europe because a cartoon was deemed offensive? or issue a fatwa against Salman Rushdie? or behead reporters? or strip and drag and burn and hang captured soldiers? or invade and slaughter citizens of India? or invade and slaughter citizens of Spain? or invade and slaughter human beings throughout central Asia and Europe for many centuries?

Here is one of hundereds of factual news reports I came across regarding the history of Muslim violence. This one happened in Bosnia a few years ago, if you care to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRew755Esd4

I could go on and on, but I won't. Mankind has a history of war and atrocity, regardless of the religious or national label. Only God can put an end to the fighting, and someday soon He will create a new heaven and a new earth where those who accept Christ can live in peace forever.

You have over 200 posts in here, and the few I have read since joining are often warnings about fellow Christians whom you consider dangerous. You have the freedom and the right to say "Bill Young must be dead inside" and that he constantly spews "bullsh" out of his mouth. I don't even know who he is; nor do I know the person you consider to be a Nazi by using your scrolling "SS" across the bottom of your reply. But I do know you have the right to address your grievances against GCI, or anyone, as aggressively and as directly as the moderators allow. I am not here to defend any denomination, and I am not here to defend any religion... especially not Islam, which rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Turn off Fox "News."

[G_Prince]

 I know you are both angry at the so called "Muslim" terrorists who murdered 3,000 Americans (some of them Muslim) nine years ago, but I hope you understand that there is a concerted effort in this country to demonize all Muslims and the religion of Islam. The things you hear from news agencies, the Internet...are carefully chosen stories to portray Islam in the worst possible light. Please don't let these reports color your understanding of a religious faith that is remarkably similar to both Christianity and Judaism in its beliefs and practices.

 Unfortunately for many of us our only interaction with Islam has been watching news reports about Islamic extremists killing people. If we knew our Muslim neighbors who work and raise their families in the same towns we live in, we might have a different understanding. I can't claim to have many Muslim friends, but the one's I have know have been some of the kindest, most honest people I have met. Likewise the fundamental principles of Islam, called the five pillars, are all about temperance, charity and submission to God. Violence, murder etc, is forbidden. The Islam of terror, violence and hatred is largely a media construct. 

It is only natural to hate the "Islamic" terrorists who kill in the name of their professed faith. But we MUST make a huge distinction when we talk about terrorism and Muslims or risk demonizing a huge portion of the world population who have been made in the image of God and who we are commanded to love and respect. Furthermore, Jesus told us to love our enemies, pray for those who harm, and do good to those who hate you. That means Osama Bin Laden. No matter how hard that sounds, that is one of the tenets of Christianity. Rather than fear and hatred, lets turn the other cheek and try to love and understand our neighbors.
 

[newcreature]

Interesting, G_Prince, I haven’t read any other posts quite like yours in this forum.

It seems extremely unusual and quite presumptuous for you to claim that you "know" EverAStudent and I are angry. I guess I can understand that conclusion if the Great and Wise and Omniscient Allah told you that EAS and I are part of the Great Satan; ergo, we are angry. Is that your source? Or was it Fox News?

You didn't answer my questions last time, so I have a few more for you.

Have you ever considered becoming a speech writer for Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? You deftly avoid answering questions and Mahmoud needs your easy-flowing style and your deceptive skills at writing revisionist history. He also needs you to bolster his peace-loving image. He completely forgot a couple of his crumbling “five pillars” of Islam: temperance and charity. Good ol’ Ima-gonna-jihad repeatedly declares the Nazi Holocaust is a myth and he scoffs at Obama’s attempts to broker a peace treaty between Israel and Palestine. He called the talks “doomed” to fail and said the people of the Middle East are “capable of removing the Zionist regime” from the world scene. Way to go! Peace out, brother Mood!

I say we give give him the Nobel Peace Prize right now! You can even write his acceptance speech. And let’s throw in a consolation prize for the Grand Ayatollah Naser Makarem Shirazi. He is a senior Iranian cleric who is among the highest authorities in Shiite Islam. He also dismissed the Holocaust as a “superstition” created by the West. On Saturday he was quoted by the Iranian State News Agency (IRNA) as saying: “The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this.”

I know it is just another one of those factual and inconvenient “media constructs” you deplore so much. I bet it was designed to stir up Islamophobia in all of us xenophobic westerners, right? We are the Great Satan, after all, and we should be trembling before those mighty men of Allah, right?

The following link is to the article from yesterday’s UK Daily Mail. It’s not from Fox News, so you can’t just disregard it out of hand, right?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1309173/Senior-Iranian-cleric-dismisses-Nazi-Holocaust-superstition-created-West.html#ixzz0yfhU1tPX

While I add them to my prayer list along with Osama (I pray God thwarts all their wicked plans), let’s discuss another point you brought up: the words of Jesus. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.” I hope and pray that Mahmoud, and the Ayatollah, and two billion other Muslims come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. God so loved them that He sent His only begotten Son so they could believe in Him and not perish in hell, but have everlasting life in heaven with all those who accept Christ. That is amazing Love.

[blonde]

I know you are both angry at the so called "Muslim" terrorists who murdered 3,000 Americans (some of them Muslim) nine years ago, but I hope you understand that there is a concerted effort in this country to demonize all Muslims and the religion of Islam. The things you hear from news agencies, the Internet...are carefully chosen stories to portray Islam in the worst possible light. Please don't let these reports color your understanding of a religious faith that is remarkably similar to both Christianity and Judaism in its beliefs and practices.

DO you think that Muslims could control NORAD, I doubt that: http://www.prisonplanet.com/911/norad.htm

If you wonder why Building 7 fell down exactly like to Two Towers as a "pulled building": http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/pp_fdny.htm

9/11 Commission Ignored Firefighter's Account of Explosions Inside WTC Before the Planes hit:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/firefighter_schroeder_911_commission_ignored_account_explosions_in_wtc.htm

Needless to say, 9-11 was a terroristic act, but done my Muslims with box-cutters?  Maybe not so.

They found the passports of a few of the box-cutting welding Muslim but the airplane's black-box was no where to be found: http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Sep-16-Sun-2001/news/17011253.html

Paper survived but not a metal device that is designed to survive any/or most events.  Even a crash?

Please read these links.  Re-consider that it might be more than what you have been told.  JFK was not shot by a lone gunman.  If we decide one religion is not allowed to be practiced, what will make it right for a Christian church to allowed to be built?

There are too many issues at play here in this discussion.  As well, 9-11 has too many technical questions around it that are not answered.  Muslims are blamed officially, but evidence points to the military industrial complex.  Be very very careful to blame a small group of Muslims, like 10-20 Muslims for this act.  Allahu akbar?  Box-cutters?  Passports surviving and not metal?  God save us all from ourselves.

-Blonde

[G_Prince]

Interesting, G_Prince, I haven’t read any other posts quite like yours in this forum.

It seems extremely unusual and quite presumptuous for you to claim that you "know" EverAStudent and I are angry. I guess I can understand that conclusion if the Great and Wise and Omniscient Allah told you that EAS and I are part of the Great Satan; ergo, we are angry. Is that your source? Or was it Fox News?

You didn't answer my questions last time, so I have a few more for you.

Have you ever considered becoming a speech writer for Iranian president ? You deftly avoid answering questions and Mahmoud needs your easy-flowing style and your deceptive skills at writing revisionist history. He also needs you to bolster his peace-loving image. He completely forgot a couple of his crumbling “five pillars” of Islam: temperance and charity. Good ol’ Ima-gonna-jihad repeatedly declares the Nazi Holocaust is a myth and he scoffs at Obama’s attempts to broker a peace treaty between Israel and Palestine. He called the talks “doomed” to fail and said the people of the Middle East are “capable of removing the Zionist regime” from the world scene. Way to go! Peace out, brother Mood!

I say we give give him the Nobel Peace Prize right now! You can even write his acceptance speech. And let’s throw in a consolation prize for the Grand Ayatollah Naser Makarem Shirazi. He is a senior Iranian cleric who is among the highest authorities in Shiite Islam. He also dismissed the Holocaust as a “superstition” created by the West. On Saturday he was quoted by the Iranian State News Agency (IRNA) as saying: “The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this.”

I know it is just another one of those factual and inconvenient “media constructs” you deplore so much. I bet it was designed to stir up Islamophobia in all of us xenophobic westerners, right? We are the Great Satan, after all, and we should be trembling before those mighty men of Allah, right?

The following link is to the article from yesterday’s UK Daily Mail. It’s not from Fox News, so you can’t just disregard it out of hand, right?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1309173/Senior-Iranian-cleric-dismisses-Nazi-Holocaust-superstition-created-West.html#ixzz0yfhU1tPX

While I add them to my prayer list along with Osama (I pray God thwarts all their wicked plans), let’s discuss another point you brought up: the words of Jesus. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.” I hope and pray that Mahmoud, and the Ayatollah, and two billion other Muslims come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. God so loved them that He sent His only begotten Son so they could believe in Him and not perish in hell, but have everlasting life in heaven with all those who accept Christ. That is amazing Love.

I appreciate your complementary remarks about my writing style but I think Mahmoud is doing just fine in the propaganda department. I'm also not sure when and were I previously defended Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? That guy is an idiot mouthpiece of a tyrannical theocratic regime and everyone knows that. No one likes Ahmadinejad, especially Iranians. He was crushed in the last election but used fraud and violence to hold on to power. Iranians hate him. Iraqis hate him, The Saudis don't like him either. The only friend he has in the Middle East is maybe Syria. If you are suggesting that Ahmadinejad is the spokesman for the Arab world then you are highly mistaken.

Every religion has wackos like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who claim to be doing God's will. Remember our very own Timothy McVeigh claimed to be a devout Christian and believed exploding a truck full of fertilizer would make God happy. But would you consider blowing up the Murrah building to be a Christian act. NO! Well a vast majority of Muslims across the world similarly condemn terrorists attacks done in the name of their faith. 

You are right that EAS is the mouthpiece of Satan!  Everytime I read one of his post I have to throw holy water on my screen.

As far as you being angry goes...I don't know anything, but based on your two previous posts I would say something is getting under your skin. I certainly didn't get a "happy happy joy joy" vibe from anything you said. I'm angry too by the way. I'm angry anytime a terrorist commits violent acts against fellow humans...or kittens for that matter. You should have seen me after the Daniel Pearl beheading video came out. I was about ready to go recruit some man eating wolves and commandeer a plane to rural Pakistan.

There is nothing wrong with being angry, but I don't believe it is a healthy state to live in. Forgiveness must take place, and I know it isn't easy. Look at me for instance. I've been on this site for at least five years. In fact I was the originator of the "decommissioned blog" on wordpress. I am still angry at GCx even though I am trying to forgive and move on. It isn't healthy but I am working through it. You mentioned some of my angry posts earlier, and you are right. It is hypocritical to be talking about forgiveness and turning the other cheek when I have spent the last five years writing not so pleasant things about my former church...no matter if they deserve it or not. It's a paradox I fully confess to. I am trying to work through it but it is difficult to let go.

What I am saying is that Christ commanded us to love our neighbors and even our enemies. Burning 3,000 Qu'rans and denying a religious group their constitutional rights to build a community center isn't loving them. It is a HUGE mistake to confuse, Muslim Americans who are part of the fiber of this country with insane bomb toting extremists who want to impose a demented version of their professed faith. We've done this before as a country...Japanese labor camps etc. I pray it won't happen again.   

[newcreature]

Thanks for your sincerity and openness this time.

I wasn’t angry, I was alarmed by your new topic praising Islam as one of the world’s most peaceful and beautiful religions. And then you used a website from a handful of redneck wing nuts to bolster your argument. Labeling a bunch of book burners as Christians doesn’t make them so. Just like labeling McVeigh a Christian doesn’t make him one either.

In the context of this forum, you are constantly sounding the warning sirens about all the dangerous people and all the dangerous practices of a tiny Christian organization. Therefore, it struck me as outrageous to see you, in essence, white-washing the worldwide atrocities done in the name of Allah. It appeared you were pointing out all the specks in your brother’s eye while ignoring outright evil. So I aggressively began asking questions.

Your snide “Fox News” comment was funny (I don’t even have cable) and insulting at the same time. And your judgmental attitude in your subsequent sermon struck me as astoundingly hypocritical. You were telling me to forgive Osama when you hadn’t even forgiven a few Christians. I had read some of your witty, but unkind posts directed at others; so no, I wasn’t in a “happy happy joy joy” mood at that point. I was more intense and began using some extreme hyperbole, but I still wasn’t angry at you.

I am glad you wrote what you did in your latest post. I can relate to the anger and unforgiving attitude you have towards GCx. I felt that way too, and I was getting stirred up again reading the stories in here. It doesn’t encourage me when I focus on my old grievances, or the fresh grievances of others. I told Linda in a pm last night a little bit about my past. Suffice it to say, I can relate.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I intended to move on down the road. But then… lol.

We may never have the chance to meet on this side of eternity, but I wish you the best in this life and the life to come. Since we don’t even know each other, you may mistake my sadness about all the atrocities committed by Muslim terrorists as hatred and prejudice towards Muslims in general. You would be wrong.

This world is neither my home nor my friend. Paul said our citizenship is in heaven; we are just ambassadors down here for a short visit (which seems awfully long to me at times). God doesn’t look at us as Africans or Mexicans or Germans or Americans or Hyphenateds or Catholics or Muslims or Episcopalians. He looks at us through His mediator Jesus Christ.

I read a quote once that said: “I don’t know how a brown cow can eat green grass and produce white milk, but I like milk.” I don’t know a lot about Gods ways, but I like Him. I know that He forgave me and loves me unconditionally. I am not better than anyone, including Osama; I am just better off because I have accepted God’s free gift of eternal life.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Hmmm.  I must be hypocritical too or brainwashed by liberals who were so open minded their brains fell out, but I could easily warm myself over a pleasant fire of GCLI manuals.  But I couldn't burn a Koran, and my orthodox Jewish neighbor left some Hebrew items (magazines, newsletters, lessons) that she meant to dispose of properly.  She had forgotten about them, but after being her friend, I knew that you must not damage the Hebrew name of God in her faith, so I am going to deliver them to a local rabbi to be buried since she lives in New York City now.

Why am I not in the least respectful toward GC, or many sects of Christian fundamentalism?  That is worrisome to me all of a sudden and seems worthy for more exploration.

[Huldah]

I've read the Koran. It's not like the Bible; there was nothing beautiful or uplifting about it. I've also read Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan, and newsletters from such ministries as Open Doors. I've interacted with Muslims online. I know what a dhimmi is. I know what jizya is. The more I learn about Islam, even from Muslims themselves, the more I see it as a very dark form of spiritual bondage.

Many moderate Muslims don't fully understand what the Koran teaches, just as many professing Christians don't know what's in the Bible. Islam, as set forth in the Koran, is actually an interlocking system of religion and government. Its full expression isn't possible in any given society until sharia law is implemented and non-Muslims are reduced to a subordinate status. The ideal set forth in the Koran isn't peaceful co-existence, but cultural, financial, and legal dominance.

From a First Amendment standpoint, I absolutely support the right of Dove Outreach to burn the Koran. However, all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. As a result of the burning, will Muslims understand that Jesus loves them and died for their sins? Will they become more open to the Gospel? Doubtful. Will our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan be endangered? Probably. Will our Christian brothers and sisters in Egypt, Afghanistan, Iran, or Indonesia face violent reprisals? Almost certainly. Dove would do well to reconsider the whole plan.

[newcreature]

Agatha, I threw my Bible away at one point after leaving GCI. I had gone hiking in the woods to pray, and I ended up vulgarly cursing God out to his face -- like "Lt. Dan" (only worse) in the Forest Gump movie when he was on top of the mast of the shrimp boat during the hurricane. If I would have had a fireplace back then, I would have burned all my GCI material. I ended up throwing it all out when I got home, along with Gothard's Rebuilder's Guide and his 1,203 magic steps that didn't work for me. I also pitched his 4,157 steps to Financial Freedom, and his Pineapple Story, and all his stuff. I did give away my 3 volumes of Character Sketches. I hated to throw away all those interesting animal stories and the beautiful artwork, but now I just hope and pray the recipients didn't get indoctrinated with his brand of legalism.

I couldn't even listen to Focus on the Family without punching the dashboard and changing the station. I realized I was angry when I went through 3 or 4 stations hitting James Dobson, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, and John MacArthur in their big fat dials. I just went back to that old time rock and roll... the kind of music that soothes your soul... lol.

A turning point came for me when I was reading a book about forgiveness later that year. The author told his true story about yelling at his little girl when she didn't obey him. She broke down in tears and ran to her room. He walked in and she was sobbing and saying she was afraid of the bees in the yard. He was so overcome with guilt and shame that he went to his room and got down on his knees and started asking God for forgiveness.

That story floored me, literally. I staggered to the kitchen and collapsed to the linoleum floor, and I cried uncontrollably as I begged God to forgive me. It brought back a memory so vivid that I hated myself for it. A few years before, while still in GCI, I had spanked my son several times when he wouldn't sit still. I was trying to pull his loose tooth and he was squriming and afraid when I tied a thread around his tooth. "Sit still." I tugged and he squirmed and the string came off. "Just obey me." Spank. Still more squirming and still more fear as I reattached the string. "Just obey me." Spank. Spank. More crying, more squirnimg, more spanking. "I said obey me!" My wife came in and said, "What in the world are you doing?" She picked up our son and walked out of the bathroom. I was embarrassed for a moment and then I was mad at her for interfering with my "discipline."

In the book, while the father was praying for forgiveness, God answered him and said, "I already forgave you, why are you talking to me? Go ask your daughter to forgive you." That night, after I had composed myself, I called my young son at his home and asked him if he remembered "the tooth" incident. He said yes. I sincerely apologized and told him that daddy was so terribly wrong and so terribly sorry. I asked him if he could possibly forgive me. He started crying and then he whispered "yes" through his sobbing. His mother took the phone from him and held him and asked me what I said. I cried as I told her, and then she let me say goodbye. I told him once more that I was sorry and that I loved him very much. He said, "I love you, daddy. I miss you." I cried myself to sleep that night.

It has been easier to forgive Osama bin Laden than myself at times. But the amazing thing is, God forgave me once and for all and forever; and the more I have come to realize and accept that truth, the more peace I have had. Jesus said, "He who has been forgiven much, loves much." And Peter wrote that if I find myself lacking in brotherly kindness and Christian love, it is because I am blind or short-sighted and I have forgotten how much I have been forgiven. (2 Peter 1:5-9)

I am glad that God kept Peter around to remind me. (verses 12-15)

[anon]

Why am I not in the least respectful toward GC, or many sects of Christian fundamentalism?  That is worrisome to me all of a sudden and seems worthy for more exploration.

I'm going to play Devil's advocate. Perhaps it is because Islam does not give Christianity a bad name, or promote unscriptural practices in the name of Christ and the bible. Islam is very open about its worship of "Allah" and openly stands contrary to the bible and Christianity. Whereas GCx's actions reflect badly on Christianity and the body of Christ itself.

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. --2 Corinthians 11:14

[boboso]

I completely understand why someone would not hesitate to burn GCx materials and writings.

For all of us believers in Christ and who have read the Bible, the whole concept of GCx heavy handedness and authoritarian methodology is extremely wrong. They are hanging stones around necks and destroying lives. I have witnessed these things with my own eyes -- I have seen big hearted generous people being torn to shreds. I have seen misery on wives who have been beaten into submission. I have seen the people suffocate and be stifled because of having real spiritual experiences away from the "leadership". It is about manipulation and control. We are supposed to judge these practices within the Church and work to eliminate anything taking the place of Jesus Christ as the Head. Woe to those who stand in the way of children to come to their Father in the name of "Christianity" and "church loyalty".

The world outside of the Church is different.

The bottom line is this: yes, the Qu'ran is a false document. However, burning these books doesn't make anything better for anyone. I've never read the book, but I have a number of muslim colleagues. All of them have treated me and my family with respect and kindness. All burning books will do is cause a negative reaction and push some folks further away. It doesn't mean you adhere to Qu'ran teachings, it just means you are willing to show restraint. Same for the Book of Mormon.

What happened to gentleness as a fruit of the Spirit?

[G_Prince]

Thanks for your sincerity and openness this time.

I wasn’t angry, I was alarmed by your new topic praising Islam as one of the world’s most peaceful and beautiful religions. And then you used a website from a handful of redneck wing nuts to bolster your argument. Labeling a bunch of book burners as Christians doesn’t make them so. Just like labeling McVeigh a Christian doesn’t make him one either.

In the context of this forum, you are constantly sounding the warning sirens about all the dangerous people and all the dangerous practices of a tiny Christian organization. Therefore, it struck me as outrageous to see you, in essence, white-washing the worldwide atrocities done in the name of Allah. It appeared you were pointing out all the specks in your brother’s eye while ignoring outright evil. So I aggressively began asking questions.

Your snide “Fox News” comment was funny (I don’t even have cable) and insulting at the same time. And your judgmental attitude in your subsequent sermon struck me as astoundingly hypocritical. You were telling me to forgive Osama when you hadn’t even forgiven a few Christians. I had read some of your witty, but unkind posts directed at others; so no, I wasn’t in a “happy happy joy joy” mood at that point. I was more intense and began using some extreme hyperbole, but I still wasn’t angry at you.

I am glad you wrote what you did in your latest post. I can relate to the anger and unforgiving attitude you have towards GCx. I felt that way too, and I was getting stirred up again reading the stories in here. It doesn’t encourage me when I focus on my old grievances, or the fresh grievances of others. I told Linda in a pm last night a little bit about my past. Suffice it to say, I can relate.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I intended to move on down the road. But then… lol.

We may never have the chance to meet on this side of eternity, but I wish you the best in this life and the life to come. Since we don’t even know each other, you may mistake my sadness about all the atrocities committed by Muslim terrorists as hatred and prejudice towards Muslims in general. You would be wrong.

This world is neither my home nor my friend. Paul said our citizenship is in heaven; we are just ambassadors down here for a short visit (which seems awfully long to me at times). God doesn’t look at us as Africans or Mexicans or Germans or Americans or Hyphenateds or Catholics or Muslims or Episcopalians. He looks at us through His mediator Jesus Christ.

I read a quote once that said: “I don’t know how a brown cow can eat green grass and produce white milk, but I like milk.” I don’t know a lot about Gods ways, but I like Him. I know that He forgave me and loves me unconditionally. I am not better than anyone, including Osama; I am just better off because I have accepted God’s free gift of eternal life.

Thanks for the sentiments...and don't worry I easily recognized your hyperbole and didn't take it seriously. It was actually pretty funny thinking about being a speech writer for MA, maybe that can be my back-up plan when my current career finally tanks.

I think the difference between me and most of the other posters here is that I don't consider myself to be religious so all the doctrinal differences between religions (while very interesting) are not a big deal to me. Christians can say "God" and Muslims can say "Allah" and I am not offended. I've studied Islam (briefly) and I genuinely respect, and accept it, despite it's many problems.I actually enjoy a plurality of beliefs and would feel very sad if world faith was completely homogenized. Just my opinion and I'm glad you disagree. Vive le difference!

This thread has actually been very eye opening like Agatha mentioned. I realized that while I think of myself as "liberal" and "open minded" I actually am very close minded to conservative "right wing" ideas. I've felt superior about what I believe while laughing and ridiculing the Glen Beck's out there. BUT, its a free country, with freedom of speech which means no one will ever agree about anything...so live and let live. I think Islam is a positive force, you disagree...but who cares. What do our opinions really matter outside of ourselves? I now just want to be loving and accepting of all, even if I think their beliefs, life-style etc...is way out of wack. I'll say what I have to say if I think someone is getting hurt...but I'm done trying to control people and change their opinions to what I believe is right.

 

[Linda]

This might explain some things.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/koran-burner-creepier-you-think

[theresearchpersona]

This thread has actually been very eye opening like Agatha mentioned. I realized that while I think of myself as "liberal" and "open minded" I actually am very close minded to conservative "right wing" ideas. I've felt superior about what I believe while laughing and ridiculing the Glen Beck's out there. BUT, its a free country, with freedom of speech which means no one will ever agree about anything...so live and let live. I think Islam is a positive force, you disagree...but who cares. What do our opinions really matter outside of ourselves? I now just want to be loving and accepting of all, even if I think their beliefs, life-style etc...is way out of wack. I'll say what I have to say if I think someone is getting hurt...but I'm done trying to control people and change their opinions to what I believe is right.

That's nice and all...to an extent, and it's one-way with regards orthodox opinion. Back at university a Muslim fellow with whom we'd hang out walked-up one day and asked what I was doing. Assuming he wouldn't know specific names of books of the Bible in English I just said "I'm reading Moses" (they understand who that is--the other guy with him has the Arabic form of Moses for a name).

"What does it say to do about homosexuals", he asked. "Well, in the Law it says that if a man lay with a man, he's to be put to death", I said (which it does in there, offensive as it is to modern beliefs). "See, we do what god says", he said. And you know what? I'm not actually bringing-up hatred of gays or anything like that, but rather that the Koran is even wider: instructs them to murder Christians--period, who it defines as polytheists; Jews it actually calls "brothers" to Muhammed's followers, but demands their conversion; and all unbelivers and Christians who refuse to convert are to be murdered, period.

Unfortunately that tolerance often works in only one direction, sad as it may be, and in such a world just "live and let live" doesn't do: it means "let and die" vs. "defend and live". Sadly enough I missed a good opportunity there, that is, to explain our (Christian) understand of the law, and both its ineffectiveness towards, as well as our inability to meet it for, salvation.

Besides those things, though, and more the the point of the thread, a great quote commenting on the "burn the Koran" plans some have:

There is little doubt that burning a Koran at a church will attract attention. Whether Koranic combustion forms effective critique, however, remains to be seen.--from http://www.pearceyreport.com/blog/2010/07/church_we_will_burn_the_koran.php, found via challies.com)

[newcreature]

What do our opinions really matter outside of ourselves?

You may have meant that as a rhetorical question, but I will retort nonetheless.  

That redneck nimrod (my opinion) down in Florida is Exhibit A. His opinions seem to matter to a lot of people outside of himself. From what I read and viewed online, the Muslim opinion in response to his opinion was represented across a broad spectrum of opinions. Some were peacefully calling on him to drop his plans. Others denounced him. And the favorite mass-media images were the extremists who expressed their opinions by burning him in effigy along with the Great Satan's red, white, and blue flag.

That wacko and his alaming opinions prompted outspoken opinions from many U.S. politicians, including the Secretary of State. Even General Petraeus took the extremely unusual step of expressing his military opinion about a civilian's opinion and the effects of that opinion on tensions in the Middle East. (Added note from the news tonight: The President also voiced his concerns, the Secretary of Defense called the guy, and an Iman in Florida arranged a meeting in NYC.)

I think the media is disappointed. It may be a cynical opinion on my part, but disaster was averted and they didn't get a primetime story for high ratings during all their newscasts. That's two non-stories in a row for them in the first week of September. Oh darn. First Hurricane Earl missed its potential target, and now there won't be any fireworks on Saturday. Now they have to go search for another sensational story.

I may have run it into the ground at this point, but that hasn't stopped me in the past...  

One final opinion matters most: God's. He said Jesus is the only name under heaven by which people can receive eternal life. (Acts 4:12; and I don't think that includes the guy named Jesus in "The Great Labowski.") That is the most narrow-minded opinion in the universe. If it's not true, then I am a complete and utter fool for believing it, as well as a liar for repeating it. (1 Corinthians 15: 12-19)

...but I'm done trying to control people and change their opinions to what I believe is right.

I am with you on that one! In the past, my futile (and sometimes heavy-handed) efforts to control others and change their opinions have often been pathetic, or even harmful. Like you, I am happy to express my opinions when I believe they are right, and then I hope the chips fall in a positive way.

Have a great weekend!

[EverAStudent]

Interesting that G-Prince said that our opinions do not matter outside of ourselves.  He frequently offers his opinions on this forum, solicited or not, and it seems he thinks his opinions ought to make a difference to the readers. 

In fact, his opinions do make a difference.  When G-Prince stated his opinion was that I posted that Islam was a warrior (militaristic) religion because I was angry about 911, his opinion was mistaken.  My view of Islam as a warrior's relgion is based on reading the Q'ran, not on the 911 events.  However, his opinion had an impact on me as it caused me to be discouraged and to stop posting for a while.

Of course, he also shared his opinion in the form of a joke that every one of my posts requires a holy water cleansing.  That opinion will surely color the way others read my posts, and so again, opinions carry impact. 

For that reason, I say, share your opinions!  When our opinions reflect the truth of Scripture and the light of holy living, our opinions will have a good impact.  When our opinions are baseless, incorrect, and needlessly unkind, they too will have an impact, but not for good.

[blonde]

To G_Prince and others:

The Fox News connection to Ground Zero mosque: http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=195049

The world is more inter-connected then you ever think it was. 

-Blonde