The Churches of the Book of Revelation

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[everythingchrist]

Into which church does GC fall?  Church of Ephesus? Other?

[lone gone]

none of them.  In my theological understanding, those churches mentioned are real historical churches, not some prediction of different kinds of end time churches.

[anon]

   1. Ephesus – The desirable church that left its first love (Revelation 2:1-7). Ephesus was the influential capital city of Asia Minor on the Aegean Sea. Ephesus is now known for its huge metropolis of ancient streets, arches and ruins.
   2. Smyrna – The persecuted church that suffered poverty and martyrdom (Revelation 2:8-11). Smyrna was located north of Ephesus in a powerful trading position on the Aegean Sea known for its harbors, commerce, and marketplaces. The primary ruins of Smyrna are located in the modern Turkish city of Izmir.
   3. Pergamum – The worldly church that mixed doctrines and needed to repent (Rev. 2:12-17). Pergamum is located on the plains and foothills along the Caicus River in Western Turkey. It was considered a major city in Asia Minor since the 3rd century BC, and became a Greek and Roman hub for temple worship.
   4. Thyatira – The false church that followed a seductive prophetess (Rev. 2:18-29). Thyatira is located in western Asia Minor about 42 miles inland from the Aegean Sea. The ancient city was known for its textiles and dyeing trade, and is now known as the Turkish city of Akhisar.
   5. Sardis – The "dead" church that fell asleep (Revelation 3:1-6). Sardis is located on the banks of the Pactolus River in western Asia Minor, 60 miles inland from Ephesus and Smyrna. Popular ruins include the decadent temples and bath house complexes.
   6. Philadelphia – The church of brotherly love that endures patiently (Revelation 3:7-13). Philadelphia is located on the Cogamis River in western Asia Minor, about 80 miles east of Smyrna. Philadelphia was known for its variety of temples and worship centers.
   7. Laodicea – The "lukewarm" church with a faith that’s neither hot nor cold (Rev. 3:14-22). Laodicea is located in the Lycus River Valley of western Asia Minor, a primary trade route between the cultures of the West and East. Laodicea was known as a primary hub for the Roman aqueduct system.

[MidnightRider]

none of them.  In my theological understanding, those churches mentioned are real historical churches, not some prediction of different kinds of end time churches.

Agreed. You are not "lone" this time.

[EverAStudent]

True, they were all historical churches.  However, their "letters from Jesus" were recorded for us as examples of what our churches are / are not to become.

A pet peeve of mine is properly understanding the Laodicean church.  The Laodicean church was not condemned for their lukewarm zealousness or lukewarm feelings but for not being a refreshingly cold drink (in their actions) and not being a nourishing-healing hot bath (in their actions).  In other words, their actions toward others were lukewarm, ineffectual, accomplishing nothing.

[lone gone]

The letters from Jesus were to specific churches. God knew the true condition of each of those congregations and supplied the message to each one as befit their situation and need. God judged and judged rightly.

How can we judge an entire church as being one thing or another?  Since we cannot judge a man's  heart, how can we lump all the members of a local congregation into some over generalized pigeon hole of a church classification in accordance with specific conditions that applied to certain congregations in Asia Minor.

I'd say it's better to apply these teachings to ourselves individually and not try to judge the church down the street.

[EverAStudent]

Since we cannot judge a man's  heart, how can we lump all the members of a local congregation into some over generalized pigeon hole of a church classification in accordance with specific conditions that applied to certain congregations in Asia Minor.

I'd say it's better to apply these teachings to ourselves individually and not try to judge the church down the street.

I heartily agree that only God can judge a man's heart, or a church congregation's heart. 

Of course, most of what Jesus rebuked in the church letters were their outward actions, things which we too should be able to judge if we do so rightly:

-Ephesus: deeds, toils, perseverence, not tolerating evil, judging false apostles correctly, endurance, but stopped doing these things so much, so repent and do the deeds of love you did at first.
- Smyrna: lived in tribulation and poverty, endured slander.
- Pergamum: remained a witness of Christ in a land where people hated Him, but some in the congregation publicly worshipped idols.
- Thyatira: deeds demonstrated love and faith and perseverence, but followed false prophets and teachers instead of disciplining them.
- Sardis: lacking in good deeds.
- Philapelphia: deeds demonstrate that they have continued to follow Christ and to preach Him.
- Laodicea: deeds are simply ineffectual toward helping others.

It should be evident that the majority of judgments by Jesus had to do with their public deeds and the public teachings of the seven churches.  He even rebuked them for not correcting false teachers.  That which is a public deed or a public teaching is subject to public judgment.  That is why we can judge the teachings and deeds of GC as to their "correctness" or their "corruption."

[lone gone]

I agree with you regarding looking at actions and judging them....including what is being said,taught,preached,and not preached ( which I consider to "actions" even while they reveal the heart and motives of the speaker.... which I thought we are not supposed to judge.)

I  also see that Jesus corrects that which needs correcting in each of these individual congregations. However I find it difficult to believe that any one person would be able to know the entire condition of a congregation including their secrets, so that they can try to attach a label to another congregation.

I'll hazard a guess that every church assembly in the world shares each of the attributes of the seven churches to one degree or another, hence the futility of applying these categories.

Let God be God including announcing His judgments, lets not try to do something we cannot do.

[EverAStudent]

To reinforce my agreement, I do not think it is of any value to try to determine or evaluate the motives or the degree of spirituality of any person or church.  On the other hand, I can see great value in evaluating the deeds of my own life, the deeds of the small group I lead, and the deeds of the church I attend.  If I am the pastor, it would be obligatory to evaluate the deeds and teachings of the church.

Think of it this way, if my church has no good deeds to speak of, that is an indicator of a needed change in church teaching and direction.  Or, if my church is tolerating a false prophet as a Sunday School teacher it indicates an immediate problem to be addressed.  

Likewise, if my church is routinely witnessing even when slandered unfairly by the local community, it too tells me something of what I need to teach to the church (i.e. encouragement).  Or, if my church has just purged itself of false apostles, it indicates a time of healing is needed.  

I think evaluating the deeds of the church is very useful, though never their motives or their level of spirituality.  I do not think it would be beneficial to apply the labels of any of the seven churches to a given congregation, as such labeling tends to be inflamatory.

[MidnightRider]

True, they were all historical churches.  However, their "letters from Jesus" were recorded for us as examples of what our churches are / are not to become.

I would agree that these churches can serve as examples (how-to or how-not-to, as the case may be) for us today. But the idea that these churches represent the 7 canonical examples into which all churches can be categorized is IMHO unwarranted. For one thing, the Bible never tells us to interpret the 7 churches in Revelation in this way. Also, there are several other churches which had their divinely-inspired letters preserved for us, too - Rome, Corinth, Galatia (several churches), Phillippi, Colosse, Thessalonica, plus some general epistles written to many churches. You would actually have a lot more than 7 churches to use as categories.

I would make a similar comment about the idea that the 7 churches represent 7 ages of the church.