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Author Topic: The Digital Lynch Mob of the #MeToo Movement is in Our Midst  (Read 28625 times)
Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2018, 07:25:04 am »

I read the article, Linda, and was happily surprised to agree with Al Mohler on some things.  Wink

"There is no excuse whatsoever for abuse of any form, verbal, emotional, physical, spiritual or sexual. The Bible warns so clearly of those who would abuse power and weaponize authority. Every Christian church and every pastor and every church member must be ready to protect any of God’s children threatened by abuse and must hold every abuser fully accountable. The church and any institution or ministry serving the church must be ready to assure safety and support to any woman or child or vulnerable one threatened by abuse."

http://time.com/5189945/whats-the-difference-between-the-metoo-and-times-up-movements/

“This is a movement that deals specifically with sexual violence,” Burke said. “And it is a framework for how to do the work of ending sexual violence.”

The origins of the #metoo movement are to end sexual assault, rape, abuse, child molestation, harassment, sexualization, objectification, degradation, and exploitation of human beings created in the image of God.  Some believers on this forum are lamenting the idea that we might need to be more creative and respectful with our affirming language (i.e. by using "all-star" instead of "sweetheart").  I would hope we would be willing to make some changes and accommodations if it would be a part of ending sexual violence.  

The #metoo movement is focused on healing for survivors and destigmatizing the experience of being a victim (you know, being accused of lying, having a mental illness, having a criminal record, acting out the pain from an imaginary divorce, being informed about abuse issues and therefore calling everything abuse, simply "misinterpreting" things, wanting attention, wanting money, wanting to promote your blog, having been excommunicated...am I forgetting anything?).  People who work with victims of abuse realize that fabricated allegations are harmful not only to the victims of slander in those circumstances, but abuse victims everywhere.  No one is promoting the ability to fabricate allegations.  What they are promoting is that society finally listens to and confronts the many, many, real stories of abuse after silencing and shaming them for so long.

#metoo and #churchtoo is a confrontation to the status quo is which abuse is allowed to happen unchecked, more often than not (statistics are pretty overwhelming on that one).  If you find the status quo acceptable, please just say so.  If you don't prefer the methods of #metoo and #churchtoo, feel free to engage in your own, alternative advocacy work or offer solutions.    
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« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2018, 07:33:06 am »

OOM, interestingly, I just spoke with a psychologist who does testing on seminary students and police officers.  There are things that can be tested other than sociopathy; one example he gave was that a potential police officer had a receptive language disorder (or something like that), which he felt to be too dangerous for the man to become an officer.  He said "if he legitimately can't understand and communicate effectively, he cannot make crucial decisions in the moment."  The psychologist also tests for "self-concept" and can determine potential pastors who may not be psychopaths, but who don't have a healthy sense of self.  Those people are also not safe in leadership as they use others to try to form an identity.

The problem the psychologist had was that the psychological testing usually came after the bulk of training.  So, someone is close to graduating seminary and he has to recommend the person NOT be a pastor.  And the psychological testing as the last step for the officer.  But in both cases, the pastor and the police officer have the potential to harm many people and I found this screening tool interesting.  Haven't studied it much, but on the surface it seems like it would make sense. 

I realize this would be difficult in GCC where pastors are just chosen and trained internally.






The problem is, there are legitimate #metoo charges and some of them have been happening in churches. Hence, #churchtoo Thinking not just about ECC/GCC here, but also Willow Creek, the SBC, etc.

This past week, Albert Mohler wrote an article about #metoo in the church. It is very sobering and has resonated with many. I would like to know what people think about it. I think it is an excellent and sobering counter to the originally posted article in this thread.

Again, here is the link.

https://albertmohler.com/2018/05/23/wrath-god-poured-humiliation-southern-baptist-convention/


As I read this article and the author was trying to figure out why the conservative church has a problem with abusive leaders my mind went back to the top 10 careers sociopaths/psychopaths choose. Pastor/Priest/Minister is in the top 10. I don't know if the problem is more prevalent in conservative churches or not. I think the church needs to acknowledge that the very nature of being a church leader (power, influence, people trusting without knowing the pastor personally, the belief held by most that those who choose church leadership are benevolent people, access to personal lives, etc) attracts those who would abuse. Therefore maybe it would be prudent for churches to set in place ways to screen out those prone to abusive behavior. Not sure what that would be. Would church leaders need to pass a psychological test? That would do an injustice to those with psychopathic personalities who choose not to cross unhealthy or illegal boundaries. Because in the end it does come down to making a choice not to harm others. However maybe such a screening is in order given the great potential in church leadership positions to cause grievous harm to those they minister to. 
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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2018, 07:37:06 am »

So who can I call "sweetheart," "darling," "honey" to?  How old is it okay to call a girl or woman that?  Would it be okay if another man called your wife darling, sweetheart, honey?  Why or why not?

If it is not okay in our society for men to refer to women other than their wives and loved ones in this way, why would you want to have other men using these terms with your daughter?  Are there not other ways to show girls and young women they have value without language that reinforces stereotypes, focuses on outward appearances, and creates power differentials?  If ECC pastors have been leading by example in this area, perhaps this is another issue that Evergreen needs to address.

one word; context. 
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« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2018, 07:39:09 am »

I'm now beginning to understand the term snowflake better than ever. Instead of teaching people to listen and understand what is actually being communicated, we teach them to be offended first if they hear one of a collection of signal words that someone deemed offensive in and of themselves. Many words in the english language depend 100% on the context they are used to gain their intended meaning which is why it's extremely important we don't teach people to get offended when they hear a word they don't like. This type of attitude erodes away at normal human interaction and healthy communication because we teach people to turn of their ability to communicate and rather get offended first. This is dangerous. From my perspective "sweetheart" doesn't reinforces stereotypes, focus on outward appearances, or create power differentials. Not sure how a good thing became an offensive thing. Ironically, many people who choose to be offended ARE the people who are creating power differentials. That is the whole reason they get offended outwardly.

THIS.  YES!!!!
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Linda
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« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2018, 07:40:50 am »

I would still love to know what your response to this article is.

https://albertmohler.com/2018/05/23/wrath-god-poured-humiliation-southern-baptist-convention/

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« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2018, 08:00:42 am »

I’m just curious, are mark d loyalists saying that all the victims who Joan H has interviewed made up? And if not is the conspiracy they all came together to form this master plan with John Van Dyck, to take down Mark and hurt GCC? I’m acutually  curous because I’ve spoke with some current or former evergreen or rock members since leaving who believe the victims as well. Is mark being accused other than by suzzzane or calling them sweethearts and that’s the big issue here or what?
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Roger Dodger
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« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2018, 08:08:48 am »

I did read your link Linda and I think there are positive points stated in the article, I will not fully endorse it.   I am concerned with the "witch-hunt" and "digital lynch mob" mentality.  The grey zone of all this is a deep chasm.  Defining sexual abuse is a starting point and I in no way condone sexual abuse, but when allegations are that of hugs that an individual feels has gone awry 30 years later or that allegations of 1:1 council falls under sexual abuse from 30 years ago, I have to take a step back and really ask myself if this is what #MeToo is all about.  The Church across the board needs to increase awareness and provide support to those that have been sexually abused, but the chasm is deep.
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Roger Dodger
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2018, 08:16:41 am »

So, Roger, are you saying that all claims of abuse are invalid?

It’s inappropriate for many reasons to call someone “sweetheart” who isn’t your wife or daughter. Good idea to think twice about that.


My wife was surprised by this standard you are proposing Linda.  She brought up the fact that guys that are not attending our church have mentioned to her "that haircut looks cute on you" and then what about those that state "I Love you guys or I love you" and are not just family, but invested friends. 
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2018, 08:25:24 am »

I agree that we need to take caution when it comes to our most vulnerable, but using extreme measures to filter, dissect and basically judge others is a very slippery slope. As ethnic genocide has happened for much less. I think the Bible speaks to this to a certain extent, loving all, giving them our all in Love and compassion, as all they can take away from us is our worldly existence. Never our eternal life with Jesus. I don’t think that means to put ourselves in harms way purposely, even though some do in evangelism, but to give the benefit of the doubt. Humanity has been cruel since origin, and those who intend good have often been persecuted.  Mee to has positive goals on the outside, but I think it takes away the Biblical message to Love unconditionally in many venues. You are never going to screen every single possible threat that is perceivable. This alone gives false security.  Do I think all who accuse Mark are not telling the truth? No, I make no assumption on what I don’t know. I just believe the other side of the story deserves a hearing. Mee too is one thing, but as you see on this forum there was a presence of bitterness and resolve to take ECC down long before any of the current situation materialized. Let ALL truths be seen before condemning. I don’t think this is the mee too intentioned course to follow. I surely hope not anyway.
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Linda
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« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2018, 08:26:31 am »

Roger Dodger,

Thanks for reading it and sharing your thoughts.

Am I correct in understanding that you believe there is no validity to the claims made by the 9 or so women who have come forward?

Follow up question, do you believe that there is a higher standard in the church than in the secular world? In other words, asking probing questions about sexual positions or uncomfortable hugs when no one is around would not send you to jail most likely. Do you believe it should it disqualify someone from being a pastor?

Quote from: RD
My wife was surprised by this standard you are proposing Linda.  She brought up the fact that guys that are not attending our church have mentioned to her "that haircut looks cute on you" and then what about those that state "I Love you guys or I love you" and are not just family, but invested friends.
What standard am I proposing? I just thought you were smart to consider carefully your words with young women who are not family because it can be offensive and that you were showing an understanding of how offensive this can be to people (millennials, especially) and were concerned about being winsome. I really pay no attention to whether or not someone calls me hun or sweetheart, but I try not to use those words because I don't want to needlessly offend.

Maybe we should start a new thread for the Sweetheart debate.
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2018, 08:33:46 am »

I’m just curious, are mark d loyalists saying that all the victims who Joan H has interviewed made up? And if not is the conspiracy they all came together to form this master plan with John Van Dyck, to take down Mark and hurt GCC? I’m acutually  curous because I’ve spoke with some current or former evergreen or rock members since leaving who believe the victims as well. Is mark being accused other than by suzzzane or calling them sweethearts and that’s the big issue here or what?

There really isn't a good defense for MD, which is why they have to stay on the attack, complaining about "snowflakes" and #metoo, etc.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2018, 08:41:44 am »

I’m just curious, are mark d loyalists saying that all the victims who Joan H has interviewed made up? And if not is the conspiracy they all came together to form this master plan with John Van Dyck, to take down Mark and hurt GCC? I’m acutually  curous because I’ve spoke with some current or former evergreen or rock members since leaving who believe the victims as well. Is mark being accused other than by suzzzane or calling them sweethearts and that’s the big issue here or what?

There really isn't a good defense for MD, which is why they have to stay on the attack, complaining about "snowflakes" and #metoo, etc.

That’s the real issue here Prince, as you and others don’t think there should be a defense for MD, much less a hearing on all facts. Why is it wrong for a defense when we someone accused of many actions most of us never experienced, coupled with the simple fact there are many holes in the accusations that where never addressed.
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« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2018, 08:58:20 am »

The Mohler article is a bombshell and a great read. Certainly, he is reeling as he has watched a former compatriot (Paige Patterson) fall like a ton of brings, which honestly should have happened a long time ago. I appreciate the sobriety he brings to the discussion. That said, however, I am not sure how his calls for 3rd party, independent investigations will be heeded. One question I have is with respect to his buddy CJ Mahaney and SGM. Would Mohler support that former gymnast's (can't remember her name atm) call for GRACE to come in and due a site report on SGM? I doubt it, given Mohler's unwavering support for Mahaney and company.
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« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2018, 09:18:26 am »

Agree. The Mahaney thing is a problem he needs to address boldly. But the substance of his post is sobering. Jacob Denhollander’s tweets reflected that thought yesterday. He is the husband of Rachel (the gymnast you referenced).
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« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2018, 09:30:02 am »


That’s the real issue here Prince, as you and others don’t think there should be a defense for MD, much less a hearing on all facts. Why is it wrong for a defense when we someone accused of many actions most of us never experienced, coupled with the simple fact there are many holes in the accusations that where never addressed.

I understand where you are coming from but you are suggesting a level of conspiracy by Suzanne et al., which I can't find remotely credible. I'm glad you are here to defend MD; his side of the story should be heard. But too often threads like this quickly veer into victim blaming and witness shaming, not just Suzanne, but the entire #metoo movement. Ultimately, it just becomes an enormous denial of how woman continue to be mistreated, denigrated, and abused by male authority figures. Perhaps MD is innocent, but Suzanne and the other four woman have credible stories which need to be investigated not dismissed.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
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« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2018, 09:58:09 am »

I'm glad you are here to defend MD; his side of the story should be heard.

I agree that his side should be heard, and I personally would like very much to hear it. We've heard from his supporters, but that's not the same thing.

We don't know at this point whether Mark completely denies all the accusations, or denies some but not others, or admits that there's a degree of truth to them but they've been embellished and given an undeserved sinister spin.

Perhaps he'll finally be allowed to speak up for himself after Joan's report is finished and the BOT has made its decision.
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Greentruth
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« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2018, 10:23:46 am »

Prince and Hulda, thank you from the bottom of my heart that you agree Mark deserves a fair hearing from his side of all allegations. A non manipulated disclosure of both sides is all I wish to see. I feel this being aired on social media has manipulated the process to a point. But I’m certain ECC management will proceed in an ethical and Godly manner, given the present state of the process, to be fair as possible to not unnecessarily harm anyone. At this point anything but the utmost integrity would not be acceptable. I believe the scrutiny of the process has been a bit over the top at times, but also believe the scrutiny will hopefully satisfy the doubtful. I pray ALL the truths of this matter be shown soon.
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« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2018, 10:28:59 am »

Prince and Hulda, thank you from the bottom of my heart that you agree Mark deserves a fair hearing from his side of all allegations. A non manipulated disclosure of both sides is all I wish to see. I feel this being aired on social media has manipulated the process to a point. But I’m certain ECC management will proceed in an ethical and Godly manner, given the present state of the process, to be fair as possible to not unnecessarily harm anyone. At this point anything but the utmost integrity would not be acceptable. I believe the scrutiny of the process has been a bit over the top at times, but also believe the scrutiny will hopefully satisfy the doubtful. I pray ALL the truths of this matter be shown soon.

Greentruth, for once we're in agreement.
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Roger Dodger
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« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2018, 10:42:10 am »

I will also SECOND the words of G_Prince and Huldah- THANK YOU for encouraging MD to have his opportunity for some due process in this ordeal.
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Roger Dodger
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« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2018, 10:57:15 am »

Roger Dodger,

Thanks for reading it and sharing your thoughts.

Am I correct in understanding that you believe there is no validity to the claims made by the 9 or so women who have come forward?

Follow up question, do you believe that there is a higher standard in the church than in the secular world? In other words, asking probing questions about sexual positions or uncomfortable hugs when no one is around would not send you to jail most likely. Do you believe it should it disqualify someone from being a pastor?

Quote from: RD
My wife was surprised by this standard you are proposing Linda.  She brought up the fact that guys that are not attending our church have mentioned to her "that haircut looks cute on you" and then what about those that state "I Love you guys or I love you" and are not just family, but invested friends.
What standard am I proposing? I just thought you were smart to consider carefully your words with young women who are not family because it can be offensive and that you were showing an understanding of how offensive this can be to people (millennials, especially) and were concerned about being winsome. I really pay no attention to whether or not someone calls me hun or sweetheart, but I try not to use those words because I don't want to needlessly offend.

Maybe we should start a new thread for the Sweetheart debate.
Linda- I have not stated there is no invalidity to the stories of these 9 women that have come forward. They have a story to be shared and they have the right to do so.  I have no idea on the details of their story or the evidence they have to share.  We don't know if it is allegations of MD meeting 1:1, having a boner with a hug, being too caring to them, or something else.  Once MD has shared his story/evidence to demonstrate that he is or is not a sexual abuser, he should be held accountable if found to be liable of these acts OR if he is found to not be responsible for these allegations of being a sexual abuser he has the right to return to what he had prior to January 5th allegation.  My fear is that with this due process, Mark has already lost his credibility and reputation even before he had a chance to present his story to Joan.

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