The entire holiday weekend?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[AgathaL'Orange]

Apparently WCCC-South will be volunteering all weekend?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=542659602447272&set=a.513502182029681.1073741825.445033195543247&type=1&theater

[DevastatedTC]

This sounds like Mission to the City. We do things for a weekend, like serving people etc. It's not bad stuff, but the motivation can be off and peer pressure if you don't do it is ridiculous. They are planting a church on the south side of Des Moines, so they are doing a lot of stuff to catch people. A lot of people are looking at this as an opportunity to move up the ranks.

One of the leaders there posted a blog. In it, he talks about doing door to door evangelism, and he says, "Every week I wanted to make an excuse not to go, and I mean every. But I didn't want to be a bad example to others and the Spirit of God inside of me was basically saying, "Its good, just go." So go I did."

He also admits that pastors are controlling every move: "One of the guys asked me to get together so we could do a little planning together, and the next week he invited another guy. That second guy, we'll call him Mike, cause that's his name, he voiced frustrations with basically all of the stuff I was thinking about: lack of clarity, people in the church may be getting frustrated, a lot of people feeling like they don't know what is going on.

So we talked to the pastors and got their permission to do some planning of our own. We've been getting together weekly ever since and discussing and planning, sharing our thoughts with the pastors and other leaders, and its been so much better.

"Get counsel or fail miserably" - Every proverb ever"

You can read his post here: http://abnormalchristian.blogspot.com/2013/05/what-its-like-to-plant-church-wonder.html

[AgathaL'Orange]

Thank you for sharing that blog link.  I couldn't help but notice his further blogs.  WOW.  Someone NEEDS to tell these members to spend time with their families!  Lots of time.  

http://abnormalchristian.blogspot.com/2013/05/day-to-day-life.html

Day to Day Life
It's hard as a believer to know how to spend your time. How involved in the church should I be? What does fellowship look like in my life? What about reaching out with the gospel? Does anyone, other than weirdos, even do that anymore?
How about my free time and hobbies? How much me-time is ok?
I obviously don't have the perfect life nor do I have the template that others should always follow. But to reference here was my schedule this year, being that I work until 6:45pm every night.

Monday night: Bible study from 7-9ish

Tuesday night: Hang out with a guy friend, Jesse. He is in my community group at church, we get together and talk about life and what we've been reading and how things are going in certain areas of our lives. He is the first guy I've ever discipled that has gone on to follow the Lord with everything he's got. He is super important to me and I care about him a lot.

Wednesday night: A guy that once was my best friend from 3rd grade to 12th got saved a few months back, its been the craziest thing ever. He is doing really well and we get together every Wednesday night and read through Ephesians as of right now. 7 - 9ish.

Thursday night: I either hang out with a new guy who started coming to church who I know from work or my other friend from high school David who recently started coming around and is doing super well, really loves the Lord and its evident in his life. 7-9ish

Friday night: 7-10 or 11 my community group hangs out. Usually we do something fun or just hang out at someone's house and play board/card games. Nothing "spiritual" is really accomplished other than obeying the commands and principals of spending time together, loving one another, doing meals together, serving one another, etc. We use it as a time also to invite new people who wouldn't necessarily come to a 'church' hangout.

Saturday: Off work! 8ish is when I usually wake up. (I know, I'm a slob) My wife and I make coffee and read and pray together like we do every morning. Then I usually work on graphic design like I usually do before work. Then if I haven't hung out with David I usually see him around lunch time. At 3 I hang out with 2 guys who are helping lead a church plant I'm involved with. We do some planning and then I hang around until church starts at 6pm.
Church goes till 7:30 or so then a lot of people will hang out afterward and play 4-square or play games and talk until about 10 or so.

Sunday: Off work again! The ol' Sabb'. I hang out with my wife Chrissy and we get all our chores done ASAP so we can pop a movie in around 7 or so and chill. Sometimes we play music together or go out to eat.

That's about it! More specific posts to come... but I think its important as a Christian to schedule out your free time and see when you are available to bless other believers. I do most of my outreach at work or when I'm running errands. Sometimes we do malls and door to door (which, believe you me, ain't my favorite), but mostly I work on relationships I already have with people. The rest of my free time goes to believers.

Colossions 1: 28-29 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

The leaders in this church group need to model care for their families by spending more time with them.  Children are not an afterthought.  Wives are not merely coworkers in Christianity.  Just.  WOW.  Go HOME.  Spend time with your wife!    So sad.  And because I went to WCCC and experienced this exact situation, it hits me deeply.  Ugh.

[Linda]

Stop the presses. This guy is married? He works till 6:45 and then at least 4 nights a week immediately heads off to meet with other guys away from his wife all evening? Wow. Sad. If that's what people want to do, fine, but perhaps they shouldn't get married. Where is the accountability here?

[Linda]

Remember this?
#46 Building Courage and a Spirit of Sacrifice into our Wives
http://www.gcnwdads.com/pages/articles.html

Sometimes, the only way to cultivate and develop a joyful response to sacrifice on the part of our wives is to plan times of sacrifice into our marriages.

If marriage is to be first and foremost a picture of Christ and his Bride, the Church, then there is nothing wrong with spouses being close with no other "purpose" than to be close/united.

Also, if you've been married any length of time, you have probably discovered that there is no need to "plan" times of sacrifice, they are there often, no need to plan.

[EverAStudent]

Remember this?
#46 Building Courage and a Spirit of Sacrifice into our Wives
http://www.gcnwdads.com/pages/articles.html

Sometimes, the only way to cultivate and develop a joyful response to sacrifice on the part of our wives is to plan times of sacrifice into our marriages.

If marriage is to be first and foremost a picture of Christ and his Bride, the Church, then there is nothing wrong with spouses being close with no other "purpose" than to be close/united.

Also, if you've been married any length of time, you have probably discovered that there is no need to "plan" times of sacrifice, they are there often, no need to plan.

Shocking!  What ungodly doctrine!

Biblical Doctrine: Sacrifice is choosing to give of YOURSELF; intentionally enduring SELF-suffering for the sake of or good of another.  

Sacrifice is NOT planning or orchestrating someone else to have to give their life or to suffer; that is called cruelty and not sacrifice.  If you want to be self-sacrificing about your personal comforts for the sake of your wife and so model sacrifice in that way, fine, but do not orchestrate scenarios for your wife so that she can suffer and "learn" sacrifice.  Sacrifice is voluntary and willing, not imposed.

GC is just full of terrible and horrible theology.

[Linda]

Well said, EAS. Thank you.

[2xA Ron]

The fellow has had his first child, according to the blog.  While he seems to know that she is now his God-given responsibility, he's also found the universal truth that newborns and quiet times do not mix.  I wonder if he'll make her a priority, or keep living the busy life he thinks God wants of him...  In any case, he has been appropriated as an example in my blog!
http://to-end-of-world2xa-ron.blogspot.com/2013/05/time-water-and-priorities-downstream.html

[AgathaL'Orange]

When we quit being youth leaders (about a year before we left the church... Maybe two years), it was seen as us dropping out of church as core members.  Nevermind that I was teaching Sunday School, and my husband was attending GCLI, that my husband was leading a small group, AND that we went to church every Sunday and attended all the special things, women's Bible study, men's and women's events, etc.  I remember we felt kind of guilty, but after having left our child for a week to take the youth to HSLT and after putting his needs on the side while we focused on other people's kids (where were their parents?  Why weren't they taking their kids on a week long trip out of state?), we knew our priorities needed to be with our own children.  When we left, our pastor actually said, "Well, it's kind of like you left a long time ago.  Once you quit youth group and being as involved as before. ". No.  No we did not leave at that time.  We were fully dedicated parents of two young, very high needs children.  It was absolutely none of their business why we wanted to reign in our involvement, but it sure opened our eyes to their control! 

[Tyler Johnson]

I noticed a lot of traffic on my blog and ...it tells you where that traffic comes from. So here I am.
So I guess, if anyone has any questions about the way I live my life or love my family feel free to ask me.
For future reference I'd prefer all questioning of my life be done to my face with real names used, but we can do it this way too.

As to my wife, I love her wildly. She makes me crazy inside moreso now than when we were engaged. We spend a lot of time together, we go on dates, hang out Saturdays for a bit, Sundays all day, every night from 9-bedtime if I'm out before then. Not to mention I don't leave for work until 9:30am so we wake up at 6 together and have our quiet times and spend the mornings together. If my life isn't balanced enough, I'm open to suggestion. The last thing I want to do is be a bad husband to a wife I love. So please, let me know your thoughts.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Cool! Hi Tyler!  I'm still wondering if I did the right thing by quoting your blog.  Usually I'm a little more, I don't know, focused on privacy than that.  I guess it's just that I recognized myself in your blog, and quite frankly, I think WCCC/GCM/GCC/and DTC are taking up a lot of time.  That really isn't normal, and we have been there.

I really do wish you the best!  I think it's great you love your wife and congrats on the new baby.    And thank YOU for having the nerve and friendliness to come here and chat.  Not many GC-ers do, and particularly not the leaders.  So, kudos to you for that.

My questions would probably be:
1.  Were you aware of the history of the movement?
2.  Do you feel that you are the only one with such a high time commitment to the movement?  Or are others around you as busy with it?
3.  Did you grow up in GC or are you one of the people who started at Drake and ended up staying as a member/leader/discipler/discipled... etc.

Peace!

[Linda]

Tyler, nice of you to post. I'm not sure how your post happened to be found in the first place, but I think some parts of it really hit a nerve with many who post here. I think many of us saw ourselves in your post.

Ever-a-student, picking up on your comment:

Biblical Doctrine: Sacrifice is choosing to give of YOURSELF; intentionally enduring SELF-suffering for the sake of or good of another.

I think you hit on something huge.

Christian doctrine is sacrificing yourself.

Pagan doctrine is sacrificing someone else.

Perhaps that is the error in the Whitney paper. A Christian husband makes sacrifices for his wife. He never demands, or plans for her to sacrifice. The second you move from dying to self to enforcing that someone else dies to self, you have stepped away from Christianity.

[Tyler Johnson]

thanks for the warm welcome.

I'll answer 1 & 3 together:
I wasn't initially aware of the history. I became a Christian 6 years ago. I moved to Des Moines because an atheist friend of mine became a Christian and my life was a mess, but hers turned a corner and I'd never seen a Christian like her before. I prayed God would bring me to Des Moines and he did. I went to a Drake bible study with her and the leader of that bible study asked me to get together for lunch and chat sometime. We did, but at that time he didn't share the gospel with me that I recall (not that I would've known what the gospel was yet, mind you). Shortly after that, unrelated to anything Walnut Creek, I watched Jesus of Nazareth the old 6 hour marathon of a movie and got saved (sounds hokey I know but thats what did it).
So basically I got saved RIGHT as I started coming to Walnut Creek stuff. The DTC was just being planted at that time so when I asked to get involved, that's where I went, seeing as I never was enrolled at Drake.
Shortly after I found this website, and here is where I learned about the history. I read a lot and was very confused. There were a lot of people who seemed to me to really not like this new church I had found and I was really troubled by it. I made a phone call to the aforementioned friend I had lunch with and we talked about it. He told me that a lot of people had been hurt in the past, and a lot of stupid decisions were made. He said I could make my own mind up as far as the way people are at the DTC (he was solely Drake at the time) and decide from there. So, cautiously, that is what I did. 

2: Honestly, I am one of the people with the highest time commitment that I know of, being a non-paid, working-stiff who does ministry outside of working hours. I can say that with a clear conscience. My wife is the same as me, that's one of the reasons we jived so well initially (may I restate...just 1 of the reasons haha, we were definitely attracted to each other and all that good stuff). She spends tons of time with women, though her gifts lie more with evangelism than discipling. I mean, its soooo tricky to know how much time to spend doing what. I get it wrong all the time. I'm so proud at times and so foolish and think I do everything right just like everything else. I don't have any answers. haha. I wish I did. And yes, I try to justify myself and feel good about myself at times by meeting with guys and seeing myself a leader. I'm a sinful man, I don't like that about me. Growing up no one ever showed me how to be a man and I still don't know how.
But I also have the Spirit of God just like other believers, and when I'm not thinking incorrectly, God is teaching me every day just like anyone else. We all reach different conclusions with how to live our lives. Right now I spend a lot of time with my friends because I love them and I want them to grow, just like they love me and want me to grow. In Colossions 1:28-29 it says: "Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me."
My schedule is up to analyzing for sure, maybe things need to change. I just know I want my life to count and I want my wife, daughter, and friends to know I love them, I want them to know Jesus, and I won't give up on them.

Hope that helps.

[AgathaL'Orange]

God's going to speak to YOU about how He wants you to live your life. 


So, listen to that.  And if I may give one or two other pieces of advice,

1.  Try to find a Christian family outside of WCCC/DTC to learn from as well.  Shake things up a bit.  That might help to see, since you didn't come from a Christian background, other ways that Christians live.

2.  Enjoy this time with your family.  God gave them to you to love, enjoy, and cherish.  And to guide and to learn from.  Your daughter is in fact more important than the church.  She is your priority.  Once you start thinking about it and looking around, you may find that you start seeing a lot of married guys apart from their families in the evenings.  You might start noticing all the discipling times and retreats where the men are doing all the "important theology stuff" and the families are along for the ride.  I'd like to recommend that you take a vacation with your family every year.  Carve out several nights a week to do absolutely nothing with them.  Just take photos, go on walks, have dinner together...  If I could take back my 8 years of leading youth, teaching Sunday School, helping my husband lead small group, involvement with GCLI, taking youth to HSLT, cleaning the church, working nursery, and outreach (phone calling, door to door), I would.  I'd join a more normal church.  I'd be a regular attender, and I'd pick one way  to minister to the church.  And after that I would ignore any pressure and say no.  Learn from our mistakes, and focus on your primary responsibility as a man, husband, and father.  That's what I would recommend. 

I'm sorry if I've been too bossy with this unsolicited advice!  I've just got years of regret over my involvement with WCCC in the early 2000s.  I wish I could undo it.  But God had us there for a reason.  We learned a lot, but sadly, I'm still recovering.  And I say this as a person who was 3 when she first prayed to God to forgive her for her sins.    I've been trying to follow God for 34 years, failing often, but the 8 years at WCCC I actually view as a stunting tragedy for my life and marriage.

[EverAStudent]

Greetings Tyler.  Welcome to the forum.

Point One - Published Material May Be Disagreed With In Public
I have some quick observations to make (ok, very little of what I write is quick).  First, it is a bit inconsistent to discuss your personal marriage life in a global public blog to strangers but then claim to expect any disagreements with your writings to be brought back directly to you alone.  

That is not the nature of broadcast media, the "new media," and op-eds.  People are interacting with the information delivered via the blog of a stranger, as you expect them to do when you publish globally; they are not interacting with you personally.  I do not intend to be harsh in saying this, merely to point out that what you ask is not customary, normal, or realistic, any more than DA Carson expects every seminary student or congregant who disagrees with one of his published paragraphs to write to him and debate the issue with him personally or to keep forever silent.

Point Two - No One May Criticize Your Own Schedule Choices
Second, no one ought to be critical of you for the choices you and your wife have made with regard to how much time you have chosen to invest in your ministry activities.  Your time usage is your personal choice based on your understanding of scriptural principles and cannot be second guessed by outside observers.

Point Three - Imitating Personal Preferences Inflicts Manipulation by Guilt
Third, all of us on this forum have been victims of the GC leadership technique of inflicting false guilt onto the "flock" by use of the line: "imitate my lifestyle so that someday your life too may be pleasing to God."  

Imitate Paul's Holiness, Not His Schedule Choices
In the Scriptures Paul wrote that we should imitate him as he imitates Christ.  But Paul meant (in context) that we should imitate his purity and his moral holiness, not his specific deeds or his actual personal schedule.  

Blogs and magazine articles that imply that an author is more holy than are the readers because the author has a more frenetic ministry schedule can impose false guilt onto the reader and thus manipulate the reader into a lifestyle of frenetic works which the Scriptures have not convicted them to adopt.  That form of manipulation makes the reader feel that God is less pleased with him than He is pleased with the blog author.  

It is generally wrong to compare one's life or spirituality with someone else's.  We are all given different gifts, abilities, insights, desires, and resources, such that our ministry impacts and lives will be totally different than anyone else's.  We must encourage each other to purity, holiness, and good works in general (i.e. imitate Paul and Jesus) but never manipulate people to replicate our personal lifestyle choices and our schedule preferences--that would lead to manipulation and even idolizing the "exemplary few."  

Principles from Scripture about Scheduling
What makes one person's schedule preferences better in God's eyes than someone else's?  Does God tell us?  Are there principles in the Bible regarding how much good works are too much or too little?  Yes.  Did God not rebuke humanity for not adhering to a day of total rest (remember, the original Sabbath was not a day of worship but a day of literal rest)?  Did God not forbid newlyweds from doing full time military service for an entire year so that they could spend time at home tending the marriage relationship?  Did not Moses' father-in-law rightly rebuke Moses for doing too much?    

Rebuked for Too Much Ministry?
When was the last time a pastor (or an author) rebuked the church for spending too much time in frenetic ministry activities?  Would not such a sermon please the God who demands we totally rest one day out of seven?  One person's lifestyle choices cannot and should not subvert or substitute for or coerce another individual into replacing God-mandated personal decision making.  

Eliminate Manipulation by Teaching Biblical Principles and Not Personal Examples
Unrealistic articles and sermons by self-agrandizing elders were instrumental in manipulating my wife and I into adopting work patterns and schedules that not even the leadership were generally willing to do (as it turned out).  Begin and end teachings with biblical principles, not personal preferences and personal comparisons, and the manipulation-by-guilt will greatly diminish in the congregational ranks.

[Tyler Johnson]

I didn't mean to imply I hadn't ever been to any other churches. I grew up as a non-Christian for sure, but I was raised going to several different churches. I went to a non-denominational church in college as well and since becoming a Christian have visited several churches of friends and family members who have been kind enough to invite me.
I know of other believers who do things very differently from myself, I also know other believers in other churches who live very similar to me. My mother, for instance, meets with 18 different women a week! She has never attended any GC church, she has one of the most God honoring lives of anyone I know (and not because she meets with so many people).
I respect that a lot of people here have been hurt, and I think that is awful. I also think that there are some things which may be preferential.
Like, I don't think church ought to be this way, so I'll go somewhere else. Which is fine.
The real question, I guess, is... for the sake of argument, lets say that people in leadership at Walnut Creek aren't people with agendas or even just severely misled. A kind of "what if" if you will. If that were the case, then they are just good natured Christians who are doing things with a clear conscience but whom you would disagree with. And if THAT were the case, then saying a lot of the things that get said on this website, telling new believers and new attenders of WC that the church is dangerous and should be avoided would then be something God would be very displeased with.
Now granted, thats maybe a big "if" for people here. I respect that.
But as for me, I know that what you say online, or from the pulpit, or wherever is going to be spoken about and discussed. I think that's great.
God analyzes not the defense we make of what we say, but the heart behind it, and the motivation. Knowing that we will all give an account to God one day, and that what we say in secret will be shouted from the rooftops; I would offer advice to you back that if you weigh out letting people figure out for themselves what a church does and believes, versus potentially being found out as a gossip and slanderer (if that "if" is right)... I'd take the former every time. God never wants us to badmouth other believers, even under the pretense of "warning" and "encouraging to think outside the box".
That's all I'll say for now. I can't apologize for what has been done in the past to some of you, if I could I would though! I think that's awful.
I hope one day we can meet in person and talk through these things, and I hope in the future you can just comment on my blog if something I say is out of line or you think my heart behind it is malicious or in an attempt to force people to do my bidding. Believe me, I have flaws and it would do me good to hear about them.

[Linda]

Knowing that we will all give an account to God one day, and that what we say in secret will be shouted from the rooftops; I would offer advice to you back that if you weigh out letting people figure out for themselves what a church does and believes, versus potentially being found out as a gossip and slanderer (if that "if" is right)... I'd take the former every time. God never wants us to badmouth other believers, even under the pretense of "warning" and "encouraging to think outside the box".

Just curious, do you believe that publicly pointing out error in public teaching is "slander"?

[AgathaL'Orange]

Tyler, it's tough because we've been dealing with it for so long.  I didn't know any of the people on this site (other than the original founders) before this site.  

I kind of feel like giving up on it, because it's your life and if you want to devote it to WCCC, you can.  It's your right.  It really is.  

But I have to ask:

What would you say about a group that taught it might be okay to bruise a child while spanking?

What would you say about a group with a national leader who said that you needed to be a GC member for life?  Plant your flag and die there.

What would you say if you knew that there are people who have harmed their relationships with their children by picking GC first year after year after year?

What would you say about a church that knows there are problems, but refuses to take a stand against the problems?  

What would you say about an organization who allowed a member, a father of many, to cash in a retirement fund and give around 70k to a church building campaign?  Do you think announcing this level of sacrifice is unusual when you are not a wealthy person and the members are not wealthy people?  Do you think that gives an unnecessary amount of pressure?

What would you say about a church that doesn't encourage a young dad to stay home and bond with his kids and instead pressures him to attend men's retreats, work days, etc. especially when the wife needs help?

What would you say about a group that wants it's members to seek counsel to marry, move, change careers, seek talk therapy, go home for Christmas, go home for the summer, to get a job out of state, etc?  And even worse, the counsel is at times to tell people NOT to do these things, things that would build bridges with family.

What would you say about a church that's on cult watch lists?  That's been written about in books about cults?  


I'd like to write more, but my kids need me, so I need to run!  Talk to you later.


Okay, I'm back.  On the other hand, you might find that I'm wounded.  I don't read the Bible much anymore.  I attend church, but sporadically.  I don't trust people anymore.  I've questioned God's very existence.  I've questioned everything.  And I'm just really bummed out that this happened to me.  When I was a kid, faith was great.  I loved God.  I felt loved by God.  I was terrified of hell, but I was a happy little Christian.  Over time, I had a pretty abusive youth leader, an experience at college with Campus Crusade that bordered on the absurd, and then I found WCCC.  I felt like I had found paradise.  No more abusive language.  Only love and acceptance.  We were welcomed and made part of the family.  And then over time, my heart was broken.  All these people whom I thought "had my back" did not in fact have my back.  They tried. They really did, I believe.  I still don't think they have ever meant ill will.  I just think they lost site of what a human relationship should look like.  Maybe they never really knew. 

Honestly, Tyler, I'm really, really, really tired of this discussion.  I am thinking about removing my post with your blog, simply because I don't have the energy to continue this.  And you are right.  I probably should consider talking face to face with WCCC people.  We did when we left, but I didn't clearly see all of the issues when we left.  And my husband didn't see ANY of them at the time.  Now it's all so clear.
 
There comes a time when you just think.  Fine.  Fine.  Ruin your life.  And ruin other people's lives.  I can't stop it anyway.  I mean there are people ruining their lives in far worse ways like extreme indebtedness, drugs, serious overeating, domestic abuse, crimes... Is WCCC a part of this NO!  Their problems are the relational kind.  The life kind.  And after so many years, you doubt yourself.  And I have other struggles.  I hardly ever even think about WCCC anymore.  And maybe I should just block all WCCC notices from my life, block all my friendships, and just move on.  Or maybe it's time to bring people into my circle of trust. 

I don't really know what to do. 

But anyway... yeah, there's a 100% chance I'm a sinner, there's a pretty high chance my motives have not always been completely pure, I've probably not always handled things like I should, and I'm one person (with foibles and needs and weaknesses) and I'm not really sure what I hoped to accomplish here.  I do know that I'm really glad to have made some lifelong friends through this website.  People I've met in real life, who I'd like to get to know even better.  So, from that angle, I'm glad we made this site. 

[Tyler Johnson]

I hear you. If that stuff is true, which I have no reason to doubt you, then its wild for sure.
I mean, what can I say other than... my church isn't like that? The fact that you knew those things would be ugly to hear about shows that you don't think that I think its ok to practice that sort of lifestyle...which of course I don't. But nor do I personally know anyone that does. I asked one of the current pastors to meet with me weekly about 5 and a half years ago, and we've met weekly ever since, I love him like a brother and I know his thoughts on all those issues and I know my own. We have disagreed about some stuff, and I'm never afraid to voice my opinion to him and he respects it.
Thank you for saying its my right to be a part of my church, I love it. There are no doubt some bad churches within GC, I have no qualms about that. But there have to be some good churches even within really bad movements. Like when Christians say "Lutherans are going to hell", its like...yes..if they haven't accepted what Jesus did for them on the cross.
....
I just reloaded the site and saw what you wrote. I won't delete what I've already written but I somehow forgot that you used to go to WCCC...sheesh. I feel for you. Its crazy what people do and with a church like Walnut Creek or anywhere where relationships are close and vulnerable there is a big risk you take and if you are let down you are let down all the more because you let yourself get so close and your hopes get so high. Honestly to this day I struggle with opening myself up to people and really letting my guard down. I have trust issues, that's just me. But I love the friends I've made. I know even within the DTC when I was there before we started the south side I was surprised by how many people were the sort of "wolf in sheep clothing" type. They exist everywhere and we aren't exempt for sure. I hate to hear about how you were hurt, I don't know you but it sucks for anyone.
It's good for me - as a community group leader and someone who has a say with what goes on with our new church plant - to hear valid discussion about what flaws we may encounter and what stigma some people feel when they hear the name Walnut Creek or Great Commission. Even though at times I for sure do this, I don't want to have superficial relationships, be a bad husband/father, look down on people, use human tactics to force people into godliness, etc. I hate that I am a sinner still and almost lost it during my quiet time even just this morning about certain things in my life I can't seem to get a hold of. I love, however, the grace of God and his forgiveness. That he died for you and me, and that he loves us enough to do so. He didn't feel pressure to do so or do it to impress anyone like how I so often operate, but just because we are wonderful to him. And now we have nothing to fear ever, just his grace and mercy forever and ever, if we know him. I really am thankful you have been so open with me. Thank you

[Linda]

Now it's all so clear

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Very true. I am so tired of this discussion, also. It wears on the soul.

It also wears on my soul that I "overlooked" so many things I knew weren't right because I wanted to "believe the best" about people who were my friends.

Tyler,

One thing I will tell you that I learned is that people can deceive you not only by what they tell you, but by what they don't tell you.

When I had the TV on last week and the testimony about the IRS fiasco was happening, they were swearing in the witness. The words "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" were said. The phrase "the whole truth" stuck out. We were misled by leaders who didn't tell us the whole truth.

You may think your church is fine, no problem, one of the good ones, but be advised, your church is part of an association of churches that has men on the board who go way back and who currently (within the last 5 years or so) have taught among other things: 1) commitment to Great Commission for life, 2) leaving your church is the same as divorcing your wife, 3) you are to give the controls of your life to your pastors. Also be advised, they have never publicly corrected the bad teaching from the early days.

In a recent sermon from Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis, the pastor said this in speaking about authority/the priesthood of the believer, etc:

Imagine a beautiful wedding ceremony. The moment has come when the pastor that is performing a wedding leads the couple in taking their vows. Everything is going beautifully. Now imagine the sense of shock and outrage that would happen if the pastor says to the woman: “Please repeat after me, I (woman’s name), take you pastor to be my wedded husband, to have and to hold from this day forth.”

That is exactly what he is accusing the false apostles of doing. You are messing with another man’s wife—not just any man or any wife. You are messing with the bride of Christ. You can’t order her around anymore than you can order another man’s wife to cook you supper or come and clean your house. What outrage!

Paul wants them to embrace all that they have in Christ. Paul does not want to be their lord, because Christ is their Lord. They are not the bride of Paul or the false apostles, they are the bride of Christ.

Fundamentally, the heresy of Great Commission teaching is, in my opinion, a denial of the Lordship of Christ over the believer and an inserting of the pastor/elder. This is very wrong. Protestants believe that the Word of God is the final authority, not the pastor/elder.