The Pope/The Shepherding Movement

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[Linda]

All the talk about the Pope lately has caused me to do some reading/thinking. Catholic teaching is that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra he is infallible in matters of faith and morals.

Oddly enough, the Protestant Shepherding Movement (of which GC is a part), denies the infallibility of leaders, yet teaches that pastors/elders are to be obeyed in ALL matters, not just matters of faith and morals, but all things, theological, moral, personal, who to marry, where to live, where to work, sometimes even how and when to read the Bible and pray. How bizarre is that?

I mean, if I'm going to let someone else control my life, I at least want them to be infallible!

In this sense, GC is more heretical than the Catholic church which limits the authority of the Pope. GC teaching not only does not limit the scope of authority of the pastors to faith and morals, they teach that pastors are to be obeyed in all matters, and, in a bizarre twist, they acknowledge that they might be wrong. What kind of foolishness is that?

"And so even to give the controls over to God, that's hard, but the real kicker here is God is saying, "give the controls over to people that I work through, and these people are fallible, these people make mistakes, these people are weak at times. You-outta work through it anyway," that's what God says."

[Linda]

The Bible speaks of many antichrists in addition to THE antichrist. I have always assumed "antichrist" meant "against Christ" or "opposed to Christ". While reading this week, in several places I came across the definition of "antichrist" as literally meaning "in place of Christ".

I found it very sobering as I thought of things that had actually been said to us just before we left ECC. One of the worst comments was said by an ECC pastor who also sits on the national board. He said, "Just as the husband is the head of the house, the pastor is the head of the church." WOW.

At the time, I thought, "That's not right," but didn't have the presence of mind to correct him with what the Bible actually says in Ephesians 5:23 which you all probably know:

"For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church"

It occurred to me that the concept that GC has of leadership is one that puts the pastor where Jesus should be. The pastor (I'm sure they would deny this) becomes God's representative to the "run of the mill church member". Our pastor literally did this when he replaced "Christ" with the word "pastor" without realizing what he was doing, I'm sure.

This is blasphemy.

Could it be that many, under the name of the "Shepherding Movement" (not just picking on GC here) are actually some of the many "antichrists" the Bible speaks of? I know that is strong, but maybe those men who are claiming to speak for Christ and asking people to follow them need to hear some strong words.

[Huldah]

Very good points, Linda.

When I was at Solid Rock, one of the deacons wrote a song for the fellowship to sing at the praise meetings. It wasn't long before the group began attributing the authorship of the song directly to God. Perhaps the deacon in question was merely trying to be humble. (But is it really a lack of humility to acknowledge authorship of something you actually did write?)

In the same way, some of the excommunications that GC now acknowledges to be wrong were attributed to God's leading at the time they were carried out--yet GC leadership has never publicly repented of speaking presumptuously for God, to the detriment of His kingdom and innocent saints.

There has been a decades-long pattern of elders blurring the line between themselves and Christ, using consistently sloppy theology to justify themselves. One word substituted for another here, a verse taken out of context there, and before you know it, you've built an entire lifestyle on a very shaky theological foundation.

They're sloppy when it comes to handling the word of God. There's no better word for it: sloppy.

[EverAStudent]

Huldah and Linda,

Yes, there is no question that GC used to teach (still does?) that pastors were Christ's representatives to the local congregation.  My GC pastor even wrote his master's thesis on the fact that the sheep were too dumb and insensitive to hear God's voice or follow God's advice so pastors were needed to give the sheep literal instructions on daily living. 

GC misunderstood that pastors are not here for the purpose of directing the daily lives of the congregation or to cast visions for them.  Rather, pastors are given to the church to teach the church how to read, understand, and intepret the Bible (literally God's voice and spoken Word) so that every member has sound doctrine and is able to reject false doctrine (Ephesians 4). 

GC relies heavily on the ubiquitous contemporary false doctrine that everyone "hears" God's unspoken voice and pastors are just more adept at doing so because they are in some way more equipped by God to do so when they are annointed as pastors.  Well, as God told the prophet Jeremiah, only prophets can hear God's voice and ordinary people like rabbis, priests, pastors, and worshippers are only hearing the imaginations of their own heart. 

http://craigwbooth.xanga.com/728825782/part-11-god-asks-%e2%80%9cwhat-%e2%80%98word-from-the-lord%e2%80%99-did-you-get%e2%80%9d/
http://craigwbooth.xanga.com/729012008/jeremiah-23---prophecies-of-imagination/

[Linda]

Yes, there is no question that GC used to teach (still does?) that pastors were Christ's representatives to the local congregation.  My GC pastor even wrote his master's thesis on the fact that the sheep were too dumb and insensitive to hear God's voice or follow God's advice so pastors were needed to give the sheep literal instructions on daily living.

I've heard the dumb sheep talk, also. Once, at a leadership meeting, we were told, "The sheep will kill you." I remember thinking that these are some shepherds who really don't like their sheep very much.

At least when you join the Catholic church, you know exactly what they believe and if you don't buy into the "ex cathedra" thing, you don't become a Catholic. The thing I am still processing with GC is that I was in it for 9 years before I understood that the leaders really, truly believe they have a more direct pipeline to the Holy Spirit than the congregation. It would have saved my family a lot of heartache had we known this from the start.

I think we came just after the "non-apology" statement so they were keeping things on the down low.

I still think it's strange that the men in GC leadership, who appear intelligent enough, haven't thought through the theology of their claim to Biblical authority. Clearly, they are not protestant if they believe pastors speak for God on behalf of their congregation. They also haven't thought through the logic of their authoritative position. They are part of a self-perpetuating leadership succession chain that can be traced back to a guy and a couple of his friends who one day proclaimed themselves apostles and now teach that they are to be obeyed in all matters. Clearly, they are deceived.

[Huldah]

...I was in it for 9 years before I understood that the leaders really, truly believe they have a more direct pipeline to the Holy Spirit than the congregation. It would have saved my family a lot of heartache had we known this from the start.

I think we came just after the "non-apology" statement so they were keeping things on the down low.

I was in Solid Rock well before your time in GC, and it was no secret back in my day. I mentioned to a deacon's wife that I was going to get counseling from an elder about whether or not to remain in college. She also urged me to talk to her husband, the deacon, "because he knows you." Later, she apologized to me for the suggestion. I don't remember her exact words, but the idea was that the elder didn't need to know me to counsel me, since he was getting special insight directly from God.

[Linda]

I post here to warn parents about the dangers of this group. On the surface, everything seems great. I mean what Christian parent doesn't want their Christian student to connect with other Christians when they go off to college and be on fire for God. On the other hand, the next thing you know, you have lost your child to some self-proclaimed elders who know what's best for them because they are a "spiritual authority" (again, never mind how they got that authority, no one ever bothers to take that authority chain back to it's roots...at least the Catholics go back 2000 years and claim Peter, all GC has got is Jim McCotter, 1970!). It's all great for the student till he/she realizes that something is rotten in the State of Denmark and they have to leave. The next thing you know, your child has lost all his/her Christian friends and learns the sad and hard lessons of conditional friendships.

[pvitartas]

So sad to see this church hasn't changed from when I was in during the 1970's.  Solid Rock, Ohio State University.  I assure you, the "elders" enjoyed papal like infallibility, unless, they weren't liked by the elder cult - then they were disciplined and expelled.  TS, a young 20 something "elder," once said in a sermon that we should look at the elders as if they were our fathers.  No kidding.

The church is like Paul's ship in the book of Acts - Solid Rock wanted to throw people overboard for not conforming, the problem is, there was no Apostle Paul to stop Solid Rock from throwing people overboard! 

[chal2oye]

I mentioned to a deacon's wife that I was going to get counseling from an elder about whether or not to remain in college. She also urged me to talk to her husband, the deacon, "because he knows you." Later, she apologized to me for the suggestion. I don't remember her exact words, but the idea was that the elder didn't need to know me to counsel me, since he was getting special insight directly from God.

[pvitartas]

Solid Rock 76 -78

Many of my friends at OSU/Solid Rock were former Catholics...including myself, though I have returned to Catholicism.

I think the authority expressed at Solid Rock was very much akin to authority expressed in traditional Catholicism - most of us had living memory of the pre-Vatican 2 Latin Mass and the day when what the Priest said was authority.  It wasn't hard for me to "knit in"  to Solid Rock. I suppose other former Catholics of that day had a similar experience.

In addition, I think we represented disenchantment with Vatican 2 Catholicism; i.e, we had lost our Catholic heritage and culture under Vatican 2.