The worst of the worst: Serious Error

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[AgathaL'Orange]

  on the intrusiveness towards people's careers.



I am a big supporter of homeschooling as I have homeschooled my own children, but there was big pressure to do so.  That was a draw to the church at first, then I realized it was group think and also not the role of the church.  Being supportive in homeschooling or schooling is more healthy for sure.

[Huldah]

Ironically, the Darling kids and Knox kids are all post-secondary educated.  They wanted their kids to be advanced with a decent career, but the church at large in Minneapolis, did not say to go to college.  

The hypocrisy really, really disturbs me. But this is not the only example.

In the summer between my junior and senior college years, I was offered the chance to participate in two excellent educational programs, both of which were offered at the same time. I was not yet a member of GC, although I had recently been befriended by a girl there. When I mentioned to her how tough it was deciding between the two options, she invited me to talk to one of her elders about it. What a great idea!--getting some perspective from a godly man who would take the time to help me make a sound choice. And to think that this man would take time out of his day to help a sister he didn't even know.

To my surprise, the elder told me that neither of my choices was appropriate. As a Christian, I should be investing my time only into things that directly counted for eternity. God wanted me to turn down both options in favor of GC's own LT (or whatever they called it back then). That was a shock. I wasn't even a member of their church, and they were already trying to make demands on me and undermine my education.

In spite of this shock, I ended up joining GC the following academic year. (Bad choice.) During my short tenure there, there was constant friction with two people in particular: a deacon who seemed convinced that an academic-leaning woman was just a rebellious woman in disguise, and a sister/housemate who was constantly sabotaging my efforts to find time to study. These two eventually married each other. They now have an adult daughter who is a career woman and a Fulbright scholar. Sometimes the injustice really gets me down, so I try not to dwell on it too much. I just hope that writing about it here will help someone else who's going through the same things. Don't give up your dreams. Don't let them wear you down. There are churches where you will be loved and nurtured and your goals will be respected. If you're not a good fit for GC, let God lead you elsewhere.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Huldah, I am sorry.  The injustice of it is astonishing.  So encouraging to hear you say to never give up or let go of dreams.  That is so true.  I know people who have gone back to school in their 50's and changed careers in their 60's and 70's and moved across country in their 90's.  If you want to and you have your health... gosh, you really can reach.  It's of course, much easier in your 20's.  Not to mention there are more opportunities.  Some things are not "fixable" when they are so far in the past.  But I love what you said about not giving up.  It hit me today.  Actually several things have today...  Lots of food for thought.

[ISU Alumna]

 [/quote]

What a great idea!--getting some perspective from a godly man who would take the time to help me make a sound choice. And to think that this man would take time out of his day to help a sister he didn't even know.

[/quote]

Huldah, even though your encounter with this dreadful man was terribly sad, I still had to laugh out loud at this particular point. I too can vividly recall the wonderful, flattering feeling I got from having the opportunity to speak with "a godly man who would take the time to help me."    If I hadn't been so naive, I would have wondered, "What does this guy do for a living? Who pays the bills at his house, while he spends his time telling other people what to do with their lives?"


PS: I apologize for not using that "quote" application correctly.

[steelgirl]

29.  Homeschooling!    I hated that this was shoved down everyone's throat!  What's worse is that although most people met on a college campus, children were not encouraged to go to college!

I wonder if some of the old timers' children were not encouraged to go to college.  I have a feeling a lot of them did not go to college.  Did the parents who homeschool their children do a good job or was it as mediocre as many public schools or worse?  I have no problem with homeschooling as long as they are capable and do it for good motives such as better education, not being indoctrinated with being anti-Christian and anti-America, reasons such as health and children having special needs.  However if the parents were doing it because it was expected or so they could beat their children in submission then I am not for that.

[steelgirl]

Ironically, the Darling kids and Knox kids are all post-secondary educated.  They wanted their kids to be advanced with a decent career, but the church at large in Minneapolis, did not say to go to college. 

Mark said at a Faithwalkers one year to get a good career so you can plant churches.  When I was young, going to the U of Minnesota was only to reach the lost, NOT to get a good career going for yourself.

-Blonde

Were they against going to college?

[steelgirl]

Sassy did you listen to them and not go to school?  I know for a fact that both Mark and Brent's kids have a good education and have decent income.  I know people, personally, Mark and Brent told to not got to school.  It's sad.  They had real potential, but listened to the sheparding pastors.

-Blonde

My discipler did not understand why I got an education.

[Linda]

My discipler did not understand why I got an education.

This intrigues me. Did you get assigned a "discipler"? Did they actually call them "disciplers"? That word is creepy. I never heard it used at my church (of course, I was mercifully in the dark about a lot of things!).

[steelgirl]

My discipler did not understand why I got an education.

This intrigues me. Did you get assigned a "discipler"? Did they actually call them "disciplers"? That word is creepy. I never heard it used at my church (of course, I was mercifully in the dark about a lot of things!).

The more accurate word is somebody to be held accountable to.

[MidnightRider]

Were they against going to college?

Jesus might come back Any Day Now, and won't you be sad that you spent all that time getting an education when you could have spent it saving souls?

[AgathaL'Orange]

Oh yes, education and career focus was discouraged.  BUT, if you were a special person it was okay and gave you more clout.  Really!

[guest]

This intrigues me. Did you get assigned a "discipler"? Did they actually call them "disciplers"?

I found out from someone closer to leadership than they did indeed assign disciplers, without asking the person being discipled or informing them that was the true nature of the relationship. What I thought was just a friendship that had developed between me and another person was really my assigned GC discipler.

[Linda]

Did they actually call the person a "discipler"? Did they use the word "discipler"?

[steelgirl]

Did they actually call the person a "discipler"? Did they use the word "discipler"?

Perhaps that is more my term.

[BTDT]

I don't specifically remember the term "discipler".  It might have been used, but not widely, at least in our church.  We did use the verb "to disciple", as in "disciple them", or "I was discipled by".

Guest has it right, though -- people were specifically assigned to "spend time" with a new person, to disciple them if the new person was a Christian, or work toward sharing the Gospel with them if not.  If you "brought someone around", you were usually the one to "spend time" with them, but there was still an unspoken "leader approval" rule.

At least in our circle, this was also a test of maturity for the person doing the time-spending -- if they were "successful", it showed they were growing/mature/still worth developing.  "Success" meant that the "disciplee" (my word) got more and more "knit in", or eventually prayed to receive Christ.

I have no idea if any of this is still true in any GC-descended church.

Someone on this board had a signature that said, "What was I thinking?".  Amen.

[steelgirl]

I don't specifically remember the term "discipler".  It might have been used, but not widely, at least in our church.  We did use the verb "to disciple", as in "disciple them", or "I was discipled by".

Guest has it right, though -- people were specifically assigned to "spend time" with a new person, to disciple them if the new person was a Christian, or work toward sharing the Gospel with them if not.  If you "brought someone around", you were usually the one to "spend time" with them, but there was still an unspoken "leader approval" rule.

At least in our circle, this was also a test of maturity for the person doing the time-spending -- if they were "successful", it showed they were growing/mature/still worth developing.  "Success" meant that the "disciplee" (my word) got more and more "knit in", or eventually prayed to receive Christ.

I have no idea if any of this is still true in any GC-descended church.

Someone on this board had a signature that said, "What was I thinking?".  Amen.

Perhaps this has been a reason why I have struggled with trusting leaders.  The elders/deaconess thought I needed working on because I did not fit the mold.  This could be a reason why I might not trust people my present GCM church on stuff.  The leaders are wonderful from what I see but what I went through I don't want to go through that again.

[Linda]

BTDT, Was this a top down thing? By that I mean, did the "in" group of men (ie GCLI guys) get assigned someone to spend time with while the guy being "mentored/discipled/whatever" wasn't really aware that he was an "assignment".

We attended our church for 10 years. 3 weeks before we left, we found out how the system worked!

We knew that they had a system of "recognizing" pastors from within the church (except for the way our church started which was to send up some people from Ames to take over a church that was already going, so the system of recognizing from within was out the window in the genesis of the church we attended, but I digress). We thought that if you wanted to be a pastor, you let someone know and they gave you some "jobs" or something like that to see what areas you might be gifted in.

We had no idea that it was a system where you had to be given a tap on the shoulder by an elder and asked to participate in some type of secret teaching to see if you were "leadership" material.

When we left, one pastor actually suggested that my husband was jealous that he was never asked to be a GCLI guy. We could honestly say that wasn't the reason because we had no idea there was such a thing! You can't feel like you're missing out on something if you aren't even aware of the existence of the thing.

I remember once early on he was asked to be an "apprentice", but we just thought that was some type of training to be a small group leader. Maybe he was being asked to "get under" someone so they could "build into" him and then be more "knit into" the group so he could work "shoulder to shoulder" being sharpened like "iron sharpens iron".

I'm not a fan of "secret" knowledge and I'm not a fan of secret societies.

It seems to me that with all the talk of not showing favoritism and using that as a reason to teach people not to date, they brush right over that in their loyalty to each other. The shepherds (band of brothers) at times seem to love the other shepherds more than they love the sheep.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Brilliant, Linda!  The paragraph where you used GC-speak was spot on.  As to the sheep... don't you recall the message by Sokoll that said, "Sheep are stupid!"  That's why they need a shepherd cause they are just so dang dumb.  And of course, that shepherd wouldn't be the Good Shepherd, it would be the ever so wise GC shepherds with whom you must get permission to move or change your life.  Do you know how hard it is to CHANGE things, when you been taught to question all of your own thoughts and then enter them into the GC"bot" to spit out the real way you are supposed to think or dream?  It's a wonder I did anything at all!

As a good GC member, you must remember that God given instinct, desires, personalities, and quirks are "dumb" and "weak" gosh... cowardly, disloyal, world focused, making children idols, etc and all of that must be turned into "A man (family) with a mission" (GC mission).

You know I wouldn't care as much if I could just stop FEELING!  I want to stop feeling for the person I know of, even now, who has quit a job (good high paying professional one, that she really liked), sold cars, and moved for the SOLE purpose of joining a particular GC church.  This person now lives with a discipler in a childlike relationship with mentor as a parent figure and works at a coffee shop and spends 4 nights a week with Bible Study, working together on chores, playing, eating dinner.  Makes me sick and angry.  This person was strongly encouraged to do this, was highly influenced and threw everything away.  I am so angry at the GC people I could spit.  How dare they?

[Linda]

Agatha, When you mentioned The Good Shepherd, it reminded me of this passage from Ezekiel. The Good Shepherd loves His sheep. The Good Shepherd cares for His sheep. The Good Shepherd tends to His sheep. The Good Shepherd lays down his life for His sheep. The Good Shepherd doesn't like it when the shepherds of Israel take care of themselves and their shepherd pals and lord it over the sheep.

1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

7 "'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. 11 "'For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Wow.  "I will shepherd the flock with justice."  Beautiful.  I needed that, thank you!  Very comforting right now.