There's Nothing New Under the Sun

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

A friend just posted this link on Facebook.

http://onemothersjourney7.blogspot.com

This is a non-GC church in Elk River, MN.

I do not have any first hand knowledge of this particular case, but in light of my experience at ECC, the story sounds familiar.

Let's see:

High control leader with little accountability to the church as a whole, love bombs young males.

He flatters them by telling them they are leadership material and gives them fun jobs like playing in a cool band.

They feel honored and want to live up to this calling, so they allow themselves to be taken under the wing of said pastor. They also serve said pastor night and day.

Said pastor tells them he is their spiritual authority and places himself between the child and his parents.

Said pastor controls if and when young male will get married.

Said pastor quotes Luke 14:26. If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Said pastor doesn't quote Mark 7: 9-12 9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God) [4]— 12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Said pastor doesn't tell young male that if he ever leaves, he will pretty much lose all his friends. They will be busy doing "kingdom business" and have no time for him.

All relationships become conditional. This is a perversion of Christianity and I stand against it with all my being.

[Janet Easson Martin]

I agree!  Those verses are so appropriate and true for those kind of hypocrite leaders.

 They are blind guides as Jesus says (Matt 15:14)  He sternly warns the disciples not to continue discussing spiritual matters with them.  They cause themselves and others to fall into a pit of destruction.  He commands them to LEAVE THEM!  Probably because destruction will come to their own faith if they remain.  Jesus is very concerned about his disciples faith. 

I believe Jesus is very concerned about the faith of his children in the church you mentioned and all those that practice such vain worship and service in His Name.  It seems the main group of people Jesus went after were those who taught rules they made up themselves and had the audacity to call them "God's commands".

[Innerlight]

commentary by David Guzik (Calvary Chapel)

Galatians 4:  17-18

Paul appeals: “Beware of the affection the legalists show you.”

They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you.a. The zealously court you, but for no good: Paul will admit that the legalists zealously court the Galatians; and legalism often comes wrapped in a cloak of “love.” But the end result is for no good.

i. Many cults use a technique informally known as “love bombing.” They overwhelm a prospective member with attention, support, and affection. But it isn’t really a sincere love for the prospect; it is really just a technique to gain another member. Christians – and legalistic groups among Christians – can use the same technique in some way or another.

b. They want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them: Paul’s legalistic opponents wanted to draw the Galatian Christians away into their own divisive group. They actually wanted to exclude the Galatians from other Christians, and to bring them into the “super-spiritual” group of the legalists.

i. The zeal cultivated by legalism is often more a zeal for the group itself than for Jesus Christ. Though they name the name of Jesus, in practice the group itself is exalted as the main focus, and usually exalted as the last refuge of the true “super-Christians.”

c. Exclude is literally “lock you up.” For now, the legalists are courting the Galatians, but once they have alienated them from Jesus and from Paul, the legalists will demand that the Galatians serve them. Legalism is almost always associated with some kind of religious bondage.

i. “The Judaizers had pursued the adroit course of presenting to them only part of the requirements of the Mosaic law, those parts which might be least repulsive to them as Gentiles. Having gotten them to adopt the festivals and perhaps the fast days, the Judaizers were no urging them to adopt circumcision.” (Wuest)

d. It is good to be zealous in a good thing always: Paul certainly isn’t against zeal. He wants Christians to be zealous in a good thing always. But it is important to make sure that our zeal is in a good thing, because zeal in a bad thing is dangerous.

i. The Galatian Christians were no doubt impressed by the zeal of the legalists. They were so sincere, so passionate about their beliefs. Paul will agree that it is good to be zealous – but only in a good thing always. Zeal in the service of a lie is a dangerous thing!

[Linda]

Here it comes. The sermon against the "slanderers" who have been heaping criticism on them in the last two weeks and the reminder of how their church has single handedly rescued THOUSANDS from hell in the past few years. I guess these groups are a dime a dozen. Who knew?

http://ericdykstra.typepad.com/eric_offstage/2011/06/the-crossing-its-worse-than-you-think-insert-maniacal-laughter-here.html

[LucyB]

Read the March 2 blog.  http://ericdykstra.typepad.com/eric_offstage/stuff-that-bugs-me/
You will laugh.  Sad laughter.

[Linda]

I can think of someone that needs to be pruned from this church! Quick, get this man some prune juice!

Seriously, these groups are all the same, aren't they? The person who stands up and points out the theological flaws with what they are saying and doing is the enemy. Instead of defending the teaching through the use of scripture, they attack the messenger. Classic ad hominem, but they do it in a "spiritual" way by using words like "slander" or "gossip" and finding Bible verses on those subjects. They rarely defend their ideas with scripture.

In this case, a proper defense would be, "No, we didn't tell Curtis to quit school & marry the 26 year old against your wishes," or something like that. The fact that they attack the people questioning their leadership by calling them "slanderers" is in my mind proof that the leaders are in the wrong.

Same with GC. How many times have people been called "divisive" or "slanderers". If you believe you are teaching correct doctrine, defend your doctrine with scripture. Don't call the person disagreeing with you names. When you call people names, you weaken your argument.

I did listen briefly to a message this guy gave on commitment. He said that he asked his wife to marry him before they ever dated. Another thing in common. Do we have Josh Harris to thank for this? Anyone read his book? Is that what he teaches? Or is this just something high control groups do?

[Janet Easson Martin]

What Innerlight posted above by David Guzik is SOOOO RIGHT ON TARGET! 

BULLSEYE!  What a Marker!   Fake Zeal for You so that you will join THEM, not the fight of Faith in the universal Body of Christ.

Any church that is abnormally affectionate toward you, making you their best friend instantly, especially in the beginning when it is not natural, is not led by the Holy Spirit but by the fleshly CHARGE to "hook" you.  I love how Paul actually refers to these people as the self-labeled "super-christians".  Its true that this is nothing new.

You go Innerlight!  This is truly the inner Light of the Spirit in you!

All kinds of believers responding to this DIVINE FIGHT FOR GRACE on this site reminds me of the christian music video by Kirk Franklin called Declaration (This is It).  I hope you'll be as motivated as I was watching it to "FIGHT FOR THE FIGHT OF OUR LIVES  -  OUR FAITH!"

Love His Spirit in You,

Janet

[Innerlight]

It's a zinger....I had that one in my notes for just the right occasion...

Pray, as young people very near, and dear, to me are being "selected" for leadership.  I wish I could say more, but that would give up more than I care to. 

Thanks...it was spirit led...to God be the Glory!

[MidnightRider]

...
I did listen briefly to a message this guy gave on commitment. He said that he asked his wife to marry him before they ever dated. Another thing in common. Do we have Josh Harris to thank for this? Anyone read his book? Is that what he teaches? Or is this just something high control groups do?

My GCx pastor told me he asked his wife to marry him before they dated. That was back in the 1970s, long before Josh Harris even said hello to dating, let alone kissed it goodbye.  8-)

I was single when I was in GCx. I am so glad I got out before getting married.

[Cossette729]

Do we have Josh Harris to thank for this? Anyone read his book? Is that what he teaches? Or is this just something high control groups do?

No. Yes. No. Probably.
I won't say much about Josh Harris' book, because I read it in the late nineties when it first came out (and have only re-read it in snippets since), but I will say that it is not a rulebook for courtship but a thesis on the idea that romantic relationships should at their core be God-centered rather than self-centered.

[wastedyearsthere]

I have heard that some GCx churches are using this counselling technique.  Anyone have experience with this?  I have heard it is pretty terrible with emphasis on demon possession and repressed memories that are recovered in order to change the error of thought?

[Janet Easson Martin]

Hi, WastedYearsThere -

That counseling term is not familiar to me.  Of course, demonic possession is only possible in unbelievers.  Jesus said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand".  A person cannot have both Christ in him, and a demon.  Obviously, it is impossible.  "Greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world."   However, a believer can be oppressed by demons.  This is probably what causes us to him to have continual defeat, as he is listening to and accepting Satan's arsenal of lies.  Satan really does HATE us and will stop at nothing to defeat us, his goal is to destroy OUR FAITH.  Because he KNOWS that Our Faith IS the Victory that overcomes him and his evil cohorts.

Hope you don't mind my two cents.
 

[Anonymous]

I have heard that some GCx churches are using this counselling technique.  Anyone have experience with this?  I have heard it is pretty terrible with emphasis on demon possession and repressed memories that are recovered in order to change the error of thought?

My understanding is that it was God and prayer centered healing, looking inward.

I think it is reasonable to assume looking at repressed memories because I think if you are ever going to get over something (sin) you deeply struggle with, you somewhat need to find the root causes and work to resolve htem.

[Linda]

ECC was into theophostic counseling about 10 years ago. I know of two pastors and several friends who swore by it. I was surprised that ECC bought into it and recommended it. It always struck me as odd.

I really don't want to get into a debate about it (so, "Why am I typing this?" she asks herself ), but it raised a few red flags for me. There is another thing that is big around here and it's called "prayer counseling". I think it's a similar idea. Sounds good, doesn't it? Who wouldn't want to go to a counselor who prayed? However, from what I understand, the concept of "spirit guided" prayer, has, at times, involved a different spirit than the Holy Spirit.

Interesting you should write this since I am attending the wedding of my nephew's daughter today. He is a missionary who works with cults in Japan, knows Larry Pile, and has visited Wellspring. We had breakfast when he was here last Fall and he had with him 2 books critical of "prayer counseling" that he had just received. I will try to remember to get the titles today and get back to you in case you are interested in reading more.

[BarryManilowisevil]

Theophostic counseling has a few helpful aspects in that a person tries to identify why they reacted to an offense or a hurt. Through prayer, a person tries to recall the first time they ever felt the way they felt during the offense. Oftentimes they were hurt in a similar way as a child. The theory is that when they were a child, they may not have had the opportunity to react the right way and forgive. The person is then encouraged to forgive past offenses by trusting in God's omnipresence through Christ.

This is an oversimplification. I believe a lot of it is based on the work of David Seamands, a Methodist minister who wrote, "Healing of Damaged Emotions". I found many aspects of the counseling helpful. However, I would first encourage a nouthetic approach and perhaps a theophostic approach after. "Nouthetic counseling consists of lovingly confronting people out of deep concern in order to help them make those changes that God requires." (Jay Adams) Again, this is an oversimplification, but I'm saying that I have found it helpful.

When I brought up offenses to a GCx higher power that were done by my pastor, he pushed many of my "accusations" aside and was basically saying that what I had interpreted as sin being done against me from my pastor was not, but that I thought it was because of a sensitivity which I had. In other words, he was not acting out of sin, but it was unintentionally hurtful to me. He was not controlling, but because my father was controlling and I hadn't dealt with it properly when I was young, I was interpreting an offense which wasn't there.

I share that only to try and show a potential shortfall or abuse that can occur when theophostic counseling is placed in the hands of uneducated men.

[DrSam]

Theophostic counseling has a few helpful aspects in that a person tries to identify why they reacted to an offense or a hurt. Through prayer, a person tries to recall the first time they ever felt the way they felt during the offense. Oftentimes they were hurt in a similar way as a child. The theory is that when they were a child, they may not have had the opportunity to react the right way and forgive. The person is then encouraged to forgive past offenses by trusting in God's omnipresence through Christ.

This is an oversimplification. I believe a lot of it is based on the work of David Seamands, a Methodist minister who wrote, "Healing of Damaged Emotions". I found many aspects of the counseling helpful. However, I would first encourage a nouthetic approach and perhaps a theophostic approach after. "Nouthetic counseling consists of lovingly confronting people out of deep concern in order to help them make those changes that God requires." (Jay Adams) Again, this is an oversimplification, but I'm saying that I have found it helpful.

When I brought up offenses to a GCx higher power that were done by my pastor, he pushed many of my "accusations" aside and was basically saying that what I had interpreted as sin being done against me from my pastor was not, but that I thought it was because of a sensitivity which I had. In other words, he was not acting out of sin, but it was unintentionally hurtful to me. He was not controlling, but because my father was controlling and I hadn't dealt with it properly when I was young, I was interpreting an offense which wasn't there.

I share that only to try and show a potential shortfall or abuse that can occur when theophostic counseling is placed in the hands of uneducated men.

There is only a remnant in GC that uses Theophostic. Most of the GC leadership does not embrace Theophostic mainly because, in my opinion, the rest of the leadership is in some form of emotional denial very similar to how the general population is in denial. Nothing new here. It takes a great level of humility, openness, brokenness to open one's life and be committed to finding every dysfunctional trace, trauma, phobia, compulsion, false belief, etc. in one's life... even with folks who profess to "love" Jesus. As was seen recently in these forums, there is an antipathy towards anything that remotely looks like Psychology because "Psychology is worldly, secular, of the Devil, dark, etc. Most say this out of outright ignorance and pontificate about things they know little or nothing about. This attitude is not unique to GC but to a great portion of mainline Christianity.

In my experience, Nouthetic Counseling is a Christianize form of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. In my opinion, Nouthetic counseling/Cognitive Behavioral approaches are not highly effective in stomping out root/core issues, trauma memories, beliefs and/or behaviors that are the result of traumas such as PTSD, phobias, OCD, anger, rage, grief, sadness, etc. At best it is a bandaid and my reduce SOME symptoms.

The better approaches, Christian or other, are those that reframe/recode original trauma issues thus releasing false beliefs and debilitating emotional states. Such can be Neurolinguistic Programming, EMDR, Emotional Freedom Technique, and there are more. Theophostic is Okay but not that great, no matter if it is dressed up with Bible verses and "Jesus" talk. The earlier approaches are much faster and effective than Theophostic or even Prayer approaches in general (not to be equated with general illumination revealing truth via God/Holy Spirit).

I hope this has helped some.

[Linda]

Here is a link to Theophostic. Elijah house is the name of the prayer counseling (using guided imagery and recovered memories) group that my nephew has been studying. It's the old "healing of the memories" teaching that was big 30 years ago.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c55.html

My nephew mentioned the book today, but I forgot to write down the title. I believe it is about someone whose life was harmed by this type of counseling. I'll get back to you.

It does surprise me that GC people are involved in this type of counseling because I associate it with charismatic groups and GC is most definitely NOT charismatic!

I think the thing that causes the biggest red flag in my mind is the "secret teaching" involved in the training. I'm not a fan of "secret teaching".

[Captain Bible]

Theophostic
 
I know if you where to do the Theophostic ministry in our church you had to sign a waver first saying you wouldn't file any kind of law suit. I found it funny that lay people, in fact any one who had an interest in learning the methods where accepted to be counselors. It went something like, "Do you have an interest in helping people with their painful past? Come along and join theophostic ministry."... YES, and lets dive right in to psychotherapy . No formal training, other than such and such hours observation of counseling sessions logged, and you had to read this one thousand page book on theophostic ministry.

Linda, I think the reason it appeals to GC is that everything is in house. Why, send a struggling church member to see a professional psychotherapist when one of your GC pastors can learn Theophostic ministry! After all most professionals don't believe in Demons or Satin. I Know they are not totally against professional Psychotherapy don't get me wrong, but looking back I remember all kinds of people who where tormented by demons. They would see demons floating in the air and so forth. Could these people be dealing with schizophrenia? I just think it is a bad Idea for novices to go messing around with Psychotherapy.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Theophostic
 
I know if you where to do the Theophostic ministry in our church you had to sign a waver first saying you wouldn't file any kind of law suit. I found it funny that lay people, in fact any one who had an interest in learning the methods where accepted to be counselors. It went something like, "Do you have an interest in helping people with their painful past? Come along and join theophostic ministry."... YES, and lets dive right in to psychotherapy . No formal training, other than such and such hours observation of counseling sessions logged, and you had to read this one thousand page book on theophostic ministry.

Linda, I think the reason it appeals to GC is that everything is in house. Why, send a struggling church member to see a professional psychotherapist when one of your GC pastors can learn Theophostic ministry! After all most professionals don't believe in Demons or Satin. I Know they are not totally against professional Psychotherapy don't get me wrong, but looking back I remember all kinds of people who where tormented by demons. They would see demons floating in the air and so forth. Could these people be dealing with schizophrenia? I just think it is a bad Idea for novices to go messing around with Psychotherapy.

HECK YES, that could have been and probably was schizophrenia or some other hallucination disorder.  That could be even be caused by extremely low or extremely high blood sugars.  That is absolutely frightening that they would try to deal with "visions of demons" on their own.  Wow, just wow. 

[MidnightRider]

...
I think it is reasonable to assume looking at repressed memories
...

It would be reasonable if you knew that the repressed memories were indeed memories of things that really happened. But they may be false memories constructed by the counselee's imagination, or suggested by the counselor. I recommend A LOT of skepticism toward any technique that involves recovering repressed memories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome