Totally Committed

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

Here is the Faithwalkers 2008 schedule link.

http://www.gccweb.org/conferences/faithwalkers/west/schedule.html

For any parents reading this who have children planning on attending this year's conference, please note the December 30th session entitled "Totally Committed to Devote Yourself to the Local Church for the Rest of Your Life!"

This is a talk that was given in 2005 to our then 17 year old daughter at an HSLT session away from home and was the thing that led to our departure from our local GC church. Our daughter was asked to make this commitment while still a minor under the authority of her Christian parents who were unaware that such a thing was being asked. Obviously, parents decide where their children will attend church, not elders or youth leaders. This was a fundamental violation of the trust we put in those leaders.

Here is a quote from that talk given by Mark Darling who currently sits on the board of GC:

I made a determination as a young man to not leave my church in Ames until and only when I was sent. I was sent. Now, there is, of course, maybe a unique exception within "our movement" and it's a beautiful thing it's why some of us moved to different cities, big metropolitan areas. One, you may need a job and you can still stay linked with Great Commission Churches because you can find one in that city. Secondly, you may be leaving your local church to go to college to join another Great Commission Church that's like minded and I think that will equally accomplish the same thing. I'm here for life. You're not getting rid of me.

Note the authoritarian and sectarian nature of it. They teach that you have to stay with a Great Commission church forever.

Parents, be warned.

GC elders and leaders, please stop and rethink what you are asking people to do. To ask people to commit to a group for the rest of their life is a very unwise, and dangerous thing to do. Remember, you will one day have to give an account for what you teach.

[Linda]

In light of the upcoming Faithwalkers message on commitment to the local church for life, I thought revisiting the 1991 Statement of Errors and Weaknesses might be timely.

Here's the link to the full statement:
http://www.gcmwarning.com/Articles/Weaknesses%20Paper.html

Under the "elitist attitude" section it says:

One very negative effect concerned members who chose to leave our churches.  Because of our conviction that God's plan to accomplish the Great Commission relied upon New Testament church­es following the geo­graph­ical progression described in Acts 1:8, and because we believed that our churches were unique in their commitment to pursuing that plan, there was a concern that a person leaving would miss out on God's will for their life.  Our overem­phasis on the things that we believed distinguished our churches from other churches and organizations and our failure to recog­nize that God might desire to use those individuals outside of our associa­tion of churches made it difficult for some to leave without feeling guilty and inade­quate, or believing that God could use them for His purposes in another church. It also caused some of those who remained to view those who left as choosing something that might be good, but wasn't what was best.  We deeply regret this, and express our sincere apology to those who suffered because of our pride and insensitivity.

I guess the obvious question is, "Are they going back on the statement and are they taking back the apology?"

[EverAStudent]

Linda, I am more than a little shocked and disheartened to see that this crippling doctrine/practice of emotional enslavement from the 1980's is still fully embraced and actively being dumped onto the present "movement" membership.  I suppose there must also be a session entitled, "How to Marry Your Church for Life"?

I am practically weeping right now, as I read your words and type this entry.  That one doctrine is at the center of much of what was -- is -- wrong with GC.  It fosters elistism, exclusivism, and makes the one who "commits" feel trapped, as if they have made some kind of vow to God which would place them into God's lifelong displeasure should they ever feel they need to go elsewhere.  

GC "leadership" still has not learned that it is not proper or within their biblical authority to ask people to make unalterable committments.  Everything we do is supposed to be contingent on the Lord leading us to do things and go to places and working with people we never would have thought about yesterday.  Only the arrogant demand we make unalterable committments:

Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that." But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. (James 4:15-17)

[MidnightRider]

[Removed by author.]

[MidnightRider]

The seminars are listed at http://www.gccweb.org/conferences/faithwalkers/west/seminars.html
I am sorry I won't be at this one (sitting next to theresearchpersona, of course) :  

Being a Christian Intellectual Kurt Jurgensmeier
Do you dig theology and apologetics? Do you find yourself contemplating "the deep truths of the faith" (1 Tim 3:9) and enjoy reading books about them? Are you drawn to the doctrinal passages of Scripture, at least as much, if not more, than the more devotional or practical parts of the Bible? If so, then perhaps God has given you an intellectual bent, and your challenge is to be a Christian intellectual. Join us in a discussion of the unique dangers, frustrations, and potential of being this kind of person, and how you can humbly and helpfully be a blessing to the family of God.

[EverAStudent]

Being a Christian Intellectual Kurt Jurgensmeier
Do you dig theology and apologetics? Do you find yourself contemplating "the deep truths of the faith" (1 Tim 3:9) and enjoy reading books about them? Are you drawn to the doctrinal passages of Scripture, at least as much, if not more, than the more devotional or practical parts of the Bible? If so, then perhaps God has given you an intellectual bent, and your challenge is to be a Christian intellectual. Join us in a discussion of the unique dangers, frustrations, and potential of being this kind of person, and how you can humbly and helpfully be a blessing to the family of God.

That sound you just heard was my jaw striking the floor.  Has NOTHING changed at GC since the 1980's?

It always made my skin crawl to hear GC leaders (and anyone else) refer to some parts of the Bible as "impractical" or "only for intellectual stimulation."  As if theology and doctrine were somehow different pursuits than service to the saints and to the Lord, or even worship.  That would come as an unhappy announcement to Paul who penned, "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope." (Romans 15:4)

It is every believer's duty to learn biblical doctrine, to understand the truths of their faith (it is what saves them for eternity, after all, "by faith you are saved by grace"), which is the basis for becoming equipped so as to be able to do every good work.  Good theology is never impractical, unsound doctrine often is.

May I borrow a phrase from Linda?  What was I thinking for ever joining GC?

[MidnightRider]

[...]It is every believer's duty to learn biblical doctrine, to understand the truths of their faith (it is what saves them for eternity, after all, "by faith you are saved by grace"), which is the basis for becoming equipped so as to be able to do every good work.  Good theology is never impractical, unsound doctrine often is.

Ever,

I recall way-back-then one of our deacons exhorting us to share the gospel by door-knocking in the dorms, passing out tracts, or somesuch. At one point he got excited and said, "We need to forget about theology and get out there and do it!"

After the meeting, I asked him how we were supposed to know what to do if we forget about theology. He said, "I didn't say we are supposed to forget about theology..." I forget what he said after that.  

[AgathaL'Orange]

Has NOTHING changed at GC since the 1980's?

Honestly... I really don't think so.  It's only gone deeper, become more distanced from reality, and become a virulent strain that embedded itself into the second generation's DNA.  I can't BELIEVE after all of this... they STILL aren't changing.

I love how being an intellectual is so frowned upon (course the "intellectuals" I know don't call themselves that... they just say they like to read books) and how they basically want a marriage vow to the church.

Linda... I think the reason why they never apologized for saying that we are the pastor's bride is because THEY REALLY THINK THAT.  Maybe not in so many words but if you can't leave... isn't that sort of like a marriage vow?

Unbelievable.

Ya know... I didn't comment on the Des Moines Register site recently.  Now I'm wishing that I had.

Darn.

[Linda]

We have been regular attenders at a very large Baptist church for the past 3 years. They recently called a new pastor (he was the one I mentioned a few months back who actually apologized to any who had been hurt by bad spiritual leaders). Last week, while preaching on Psalm 121, a Psalm of ascent, his main point was this.

What gave the Israelites the strength they needed for their dangerous journey “up” to the Temple in Jerusalem for worship?
An accurate understanding of the attributes, character, and nature of God.
Big Idea point:
Strength for your faith journey comes from accurate theology and sound doctrine.  Really!

He emphasized the "Really" in that last sentence, I believe, because people tend to think of theology and doctrine as dead and wanted people to understand that how they view God has a profound impact on their decisions and actions. Doctrine matters.

Also, Midnight, I hadn't seen the link to the sessions, so thanks for posting that.

Agatha, I had never thought of the idea that pastors might actually think the congregation is their bride. I just assumed they misspoke. Upon further review, we did have a pastor (not Mark Darling who actually said it to a group of over 1000, but another one who sits on the GC board) tell us that as the husband is the head of the household, the pastor is the head of the church! Ephesians 5 tells us that Christ is the head of the church, so I am now beginning to wonder just what they are teaching in those GCLI papers. They do seem to mix themselves up with Christ at times.

Finally, I thought this in the About part on the Faithwalkers page (http://www.gccweb.org/conferences/faithwalkers/about.html) was kind of bizarre. What does Native American lore have to do with Christianity? I guess they are just trying to be culturally relevant, but why would a Christian group want to identify with Native American spirituality?:

The name Faithwalkers was inspired by the scripture: “We walk by faith and not by sight,” (II Cor. 5:7). Also the name Faithwalkers makes a connection to the Native American culture where Indians would sit around the campfire with the “old ones” listening to them tell stories of the great hunt and deeds of the past. As Christians, older believers are to proclaim the deeds of God to younger believers, as is written in Psalm 78:4: "We will tell the next generation the praiseworthy deeds of the Lord."

[EverAStudent]

I am at a loss to remember if I ever posted this on the forum, so, I will give you the short version.  

When we gave notice (in person) to the head elder of our GC assembly (church), the elders showed up at midnight at our apartment (all of them, unannounced) to accuse us of committing an improper divorce against the church by leaving it.  No need to connect the dots, they meant we were faithless (and they said so) to our marriage to the church because we were leaving.  It was a long ugly night that ended well because they exposed their hidden characters to my wife (a member of GC for much of her life) when she caught them in repeated lies and false accusations.  Then they turned on her with an onslaught of lies and false accusations.  

Neither of us ever questioned the wisdom of our leaving after that, only the wisdom of ever having been involved.  By the way, just prior to leaving we had rejected their plea to "commit for life to the assembly."  I am smiling right now...

[Linda]

Wow. Unbelievable. What year what this? The 80's, right?

Neither of us ever questioned the wisdom of our leaving after that, only the wisdom of ever having been involved.

Ironically, for us it was also an unannounced visit from a GC elder to our home delivering a letter of rebuke (it was noon on a Wednesday when my husband was at work and I was the only adult home, but it was also more than a year after we left the church) that was definitive proof to us that leaving the church and warning others was the right thing to do.

Apparently, the idea of marriage to the church for life is part of the DNA from the beginning.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, yes, I got into GC in the 70's (my wife earlier than me, before we met) and we left together in the 80's.  We left over repeated doctrinal errors from the elders' pulpit: children should not be at worship services because college students are irritated by them (really!!!!????), all men must try to become elders, Jim McCotter is an apostle so we should tithe to him, the elders have God's authority to choose your mate for you, commit to that local assembly for life, etc...the usual.  

Near the end, the elders began to realize that my teachings from the Word during "open ministry" were contradicting these erroneous doctrines (they said the "national elders" had instructed them to teach these errors), so they tried to break up my wife and I.  My wife was a musician and they saw her as more valuable than me, they wanted to keep her and cut me loose.  Directed to my old elders: Sorry, guys, we had a real marriage--but take heart, you did succeed in making our lives a nightmare during that last year!

What continually causes me pause is when I realize that they really acted like they were our "husbands," a title and role that is Christ's alone.  The church is Christ's bride, not the bride of the elders.  

I wish it were possible to warn every believer in the world who is considering attending a GC church of GC's poor doctrinal track record.  I know, many would not care, but at least they would be warned.

[wastedyearsthere]

Definitely in the 80's they had this belief.  If you left the church you were told you were committing spiritual suicide -- I know of many that were told this.

[EverAStudent]

Definitely in the 80's they had this belief. If you left the church you were told you were committing spiritual suicide -- I know of many that were told this.

Oh, most certainly!  During that gestapo-style midnight visit on the day we left, they explained how only churches in the GC movement were going to win the world for Christ (all by themselves???!!!!!) and only people in the movement were really committed to God.  Worse, why, where would we ever go that was as good as GC?  What other churches actually teach the Word?  

If we left, so we were told, God would be displeased with us and we would only be giving and getting God's second best.

"God's second best."  How many times had we heard that boasted and threatened?

Hmmm...now where was that passage about God's holy children getting God's second best...????...hmmm...I am having trouble finding it....

[wastedyearsthere]

They also liked to use the threat or fear tactic of doing God's Will.  That it wasn't God's Will to leave the church.  That always seemed to get thrown in the mix when people weren't good little sheep and did exactly what they were told.

[theresearchpersona]

I know of a guy who, because of anti-intellectualism, said he's now doing all he can (despite being nagged at and booed) to be "intellectual" (and he's no snob, very gracious!).

Anyway, the more I think on the things of the faith, the "intellectual" details, the more I'm humbled, and see others as better, etc..

That people think such things are mere intellectual frivolities, it's worrisome; but then also remember I should pray for them, and frankly that we have all we need, no need to worry. Grace.

[boboso]

Sadly, I can say this kind of bondage is still being passed out as we saw this just last year.

Once we were deemed "leadership worthy", they broke out the "commitment-for-life" GC garbage. When I made them explicitly affirm this is over and above what the Bible requires, (moreover, extra-biblical), they got uncomfortable. Then they really got uncomfortable when I told them "no, not interested." It got bad really fast from there.

It still disgusts me to this day. I think we had one of the more controlling founding members around and I think he passed out the kool-aid early and often.

It was never about relationships, it was never about love. This is about finding loyal "employees" to help build the local GC franchise. The most disgusting kool-aid drinkers were the ones who were just putting up with the garbage till they were chosen to start their own franchise. Just thinking about this really burns me up as I remember all of the stones they hung on necks so they can impress upper management.

[Linda]

In February of 2005, all the ECC churches gathered for our annual all church gathering. These annual gatherings started off as being a time for everyone to see old friends and be encouraged to grow closer to God and more active in evangelism. The 2005 meeting was called "Fanning the Flame". This was the talk where MD said we were his bride and he would die in a GC church. It was, as I have mentioned, also the talk that led to lots of googling, a call to Larry Pile, lots of out of print online book buying (but we do have Apostles and Elders by McCotter!) and, finally, our departure.

In the course of our googling, I stumbled upon some talks from Faithwalkers. I confronted an elder about these quotes and was met with a blank stare. I don't know if that meant he had never heard this, he didn't believe me, or that he was bothered, also, and couldn't speak until he had talked with one of the higher up elders to find out what his response should be.

Anyway, in rummaging through our 5 inch folder of GC "documentation", I stumbled upon them. Here are some choice quotes from 2004. The talk was given by Rick Whitney. I believe this was the year McCotter showed up.

You might say to yourself, "Look, I'm loyal to my church, but have I told my leaders, my partners, my friends, my brothers, my sisters, "I will be with you to the end."

For 30 years men have not sought me out and whispered into my ear about one problem in this movement.

Although we might be separated, there's never been a rupture, and there's never been a tearing, and there's never been a walking.

God wants us to be loyal, forever, for the long haul, for the rest of our life with our church.

Find the people of God that you are convinced God wants you to be with and stay and die with them forever. Be careful, though in this finding.

Jim, "Why can't people just pack their bags and leave when they leave. Why don't they just leave. Quietly leave. Walk out the door. Their ticket's punched, they're going to heaven. We're going to stand around the throne. Hallelujah. We're going to blink and it'll only be 70 years. We'll step into 4000 years, and then 8000 years. I mean why can't they just leave."

I remember I was a young Christian. I remember why when someone left our assemblies, our families, our church. And someone will and someone has and someone may...God forbid, here.

Well, when people have left, they've said things, why, and I remember Jim turning to me and he said, "Rick, you don't understand, obviously you don't understand Rick. Understand what? Tired of people throwing the pot shots at us. He said, "Rick, we're doing something incredibly noble and it's of God and we're building families for our Savior. We're doing something unique. It should be painful, God forbid it is not painful when ones leave.

The single biggest decision you will make as a Christian that will determine your success as a believer is whether you will commit to your brothers and sisters for life.

You know, we ought to just pull out the papers and we ought to just sign on the dotted line. I don't think I have any Indian in my blood, but I was thinking, well, we need to get a nice knife...remember that scene in Robin Hood where he goes like that...

Much to my shame, I heard that talk, the Fanning the Flame talk, I read Apostles and Elders and Marching to Zion,we had an unexpected visit from an elder, a sermon preached against Terry's blog post, a letter rebuking us sent to our children (and who knows else I might add), and I still have a hard time believing these are not just "uneducated guys" bumbling their way through.

Obviously, what some elders said to our face, was very different from what they said when we were not around.

While the duplicity and false teaching and the interfering with parenting and the hurt they have caused fellow believers makes me angry and frightens me, there is something very pitiful about this group who think they are it.

[wastedyearsthere]

Phoney baloney stuff -- they would be your friends for life. It is VERY conditional.  They will be "friends" only if you continue to have the commitment they expect EVEN when you are in the church.  When you leave the church -- all the friends leave.  Are those "friends"?  I find this deceptive and ungodly.  It reeks of a scam.

How do they justify Jim M. leaving and finding another church?  Does he even go to church -- I've heard rumor he doesn't.

[askingquestionsaboutGCI]

One of the speakers is Dennis Clark. Can someone fill in the history for me? I was under the impression he left GCx when Jim McCotter left.

No, Dennis was always around and is still around.  I can't give you his full history; I just know that he was actively pastoring a GC* church in Maryland in the 1990's, then moved to Colorado around 2000 to pastor another GC church.  Here's a link to info on him at the church where he is currently: http://www.prairieviewcc.org/v2/index2.php?content=pastor.php

Hope that helps!