Totally Committed

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[DrSam]

Linda, I personally have challenged Rick many times about his life, his statements, and even words like these. I have even confronted him about how he superficially answers me. I know Rick well. We lived next door to each other, co-pastored for years, and have been in the past National Leaders for years together. Rick is stuck in a paradigm. He's a good man who loves God the best he knows but still stuck. He is the product of his own issues, good and bad. His theology therefore appeals to him based on his own emotional needs. We can deny this but we all do the same too. I recommend that you pray for Rick. I do often and hope that God will redeem the relationship and the light will shine forth on both of us.

In February of 2005, all the ECC churches gathered for our annual all church gathering. These annual gatherings started off as being a time for everyone to see old friends and be encouraged to grow closer to God and more active in evangelism. The 2005 meeting was called "Fanning the Flame". This was the talk where MD said we were his bride and he would die in a GC church. It was, as I have mentioned, also the talk that led to lots of googling, a call to Larry Pile, lots of out of print online book buying (but we do have Apostles and Elders by McCotter!) and, finally, our departure.

In the course of our googling, I stumbled upon some talks from Faithwalkers. I confronted an elder about these quotes and was met with a blank stare. I don't know if that meant he had never heard this, he didn't believe me, or that he was bothered, also, and couldn't speak until he had talked with one of the higher up elders to find out what his response should be.

Anyway, in rummaging through our 5 inch folder of GC "documentation", I stumbled upon them. Here are some choice quotes from 2004. The talk was given by Rick Whitney. I believe this was the year McCotter showed up.

You might say to yourself, "Look, I'm loyal to my church, but have I told my leaders, my partners, my friends, m y brothers, my sisters, "I will be with you to the end."

For 30 years men have not sought me out and whispered into my ear about one problem in this movement.

Although we might be separated, there's never been a rupture, and there's never been a tearing, and there's never been a walking.

God wants tus to be loyal, forever, for the long haul, for the rest of our life with our church.

Find the people of God that you are convinced God wants you to be with and stay and die with them forever. Be careful, though in this finding.

Jim, "Why can't people just pack their bags and leave when they leave. Why don't they just leave. Quietly leave. Walk out the door. Their ticket's punched, they're going to heaven. We're going to stand around the throne. Hallelujah. We're going to blink and it'll only be 70 years. We'll step into 4000 years, and then 8000 years. I mean why can't they just leave."

I remember I was a young Christian. I remember why when someone left our assemblies, our families, our church. And someone will and someone has and someone may...God forbid, here.

Well, when people have left, they've said things, why, and I remember Jim turning to me and he said, "Rick, you don't understand, obviously you don't understand Rick. Understand what? Tired of people throwing the pot shots at us. He said, "Rick, we're doing something incredibly noble and it's of God and we're building families for our Savior. We're doing something unique. It should be painful, God forbid it is not painful when ones leave.

The single biggest decision you will make as a Christian that will determine your success as a believer is whether you will commit to your brothers and sisters for life.

You know, we ought to just pull out the papers and we ought to just sign on the dotted line. I don't think I have any Indian in my blood, but I was thinking, well, we need to get a nice knife...remember that scene in Robin Hood where he goes like that...

Much to my shame, I heard that talk, the Fanning the Flame talk, I read Apostles and Elders and Marching to Zion,we had an unexpected visit from an elder, a sermon preached against Terry's blog post, a letter rebuking us sent to our children (and who knows else I might add), and I still have a hard time believing these are not just "uneducated guys" bumbling their way through.

Obviously, what some elders said to our face, was very different from what they said when we were not around.

While the duplicity and false teaching and the interfering with parenting and the hurt they have caused fellow believers makes me angry and frightens me, there is something very pitiful about this group who think they are it.

[Linda]

Sam, the problem here is that lots of GC leaders are stuck in a bad paradigm and that they say different things to different people in order to get them out of the pickles they have created. For example, they wrote the apology, but they didn't distribute it widely and now they seem to be going back on it. However, it is still up on their web page. They tell people they are free to leave, then they show up unannounced at the doors of people who leave. That's not freedom.

When all is said and done, it seems to me that their error (and the thing that makes them cult-like) is in the area of "obedience" to leaders and commitment for life.

They talk in circles when you confront them on either of those two, but when no one is looking they say things like, "God wants you to give the controls of your life to the men He works through" and "God wants you to commit to your church for life." Those are fundamentally flawed statements and in order to be faithful to God, people need to stand up and say something. Hence, this forum.

You did the right thing to confront Rick, Sam, and I am sorry that there was a rift in your friendship.

The unfortunate thing here is that a lot of the leaders were taught under the master himself and they may be nice guys, but they are misrepresenting Christ and ruining lives, marriages, families, and friendships by the things they teach. People need to be warned. Starting with the elders whose doctrine is not sound.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, I personally have challenged Rick many times about his life, his statements, and even words like these. I have even confronted him about how he superficially answers me. I know Rick well.

Did you actually rebuke another "national elder" for teaching the "commit yourself to your local GC assembly for life" doctrine?  If so, this is the first time I have heard that one elder rebuked another for teaching that specific false doctrine.

Did you ever teach the "commit yourself to your local GC assembly for life" doctrine yourself?  If so, when did you come to see it as wrong?

[boboso]

good point wastedyears... if THE founding member isn't buying into GC, what does that really tell you? Do as I say not as I do? Yeah, that's real consistent.

Rick is a nice man when he's not passing out the kool-aid. However, this doesn't make GC better either. I think he sincerely believes he's doing the best for Christianity, but that doesn't make it true either. I think he loves the Lord and his family very much -- but that doesn't mean what he's teaching is good.

Test the spirits, judge what you hear, read the bible.

[Linda]

Just to clarify, according to a RW newsletter, it was the 2003 Faithwalkers that Jim McCotter attended. That must have been one of the first ones.

Picking up on the difficulty people have leaving (everything from midnight elder visits to broken friendships), I was flipping the channels this week and found myself stopped on Oprah. Her guests were members of the Warren Jeffs Mormon cult. Oprah asked how it was that they couldn't leave. She had assumed they were locked in a compound and was surprised to find out they weren't.

One who escaped said they were free to go to town. The bondage was not physical, they were bound by ideas, the biggest of which was that to leave would be to be stepping outside the will of God.

To teach lifetime commitment to any small "c" church and attempt to make people think that leaving would be settling for God's second best, or worse yet, be moving outside the will of God is a form of bondage created by men.

[DrSam]

Linda, I personally have challenged Rick many times about his life, his statements, and even words like these. I have even confronted him about how he superficially answers me. I know Rick well.

Did you actually rebuke another "national elder" for teaching the "commit yourself to your local GC assembly for life" doctrine?  If so, this is the first time I have heard that one elder rebuked another for teaching that specific false doctrine.

Did you ever teach the "commit yourself to your local GC assembly for life" doctrine yourself?  If so, when did you come to see it as wrong?

I do not recall exactly when I communicated that to him but I do remember that a few years ago, already out of the movement, I emailed him directly and quoted to him his own words implying that people leaving were either out of favor from God or were missing God's will. He did not answer me directly but said something evasive like, "Bless you brother, you are a man of passion... Love Rick." In the past I have even confronted him on his "blip" answers like that that never totally address the questions I've put to him. In essence he does know that I don't agree with him on this matter and I believe he knows subconsciously that he lives a dichotomy/dissonance in the presence of so many godly men out there that are not part of GC.

I probably could fill a book from all the communications I have had directly to every National Leader, the Board, to Rick. I repeatedly told each man on the board that God was going to judge them if they would not make changes to their lives and the movement. I addressed the weaknesses of each. I reproved John, Rick, Dennis, Hershel, Terry, Nelson Guerra, who were participants, directly or indirectly of the demise of many a leader and even fellow National Leaders (Rob Irvine, Tom Schroeder, and myself). Jeff Kern and Greg VanAda were present at one main last ditch effort of mine. Jeff is gone, Terry is gone, Hershel is fading, and I say that John and Rick will, because God dearly loves them, get their own medicine back in time. God is just. The only National Leader that was somewhat positive with me was Dave B. The problem is that Dave is not a type A personality like Irvine, Schroeder and myself. So he sometimes sits in the shadows. He has defended me, nevertheless. I remember confronting John Hopler at that last board meeting I was at. I was telling the board members that John is a great accountant, and administrator but not a pastor and even less a pastor of pastors. I also said that he had never planted one single church in his life. I shared that he botched up many a situation in the past, mine included. That was evidence. I pleaded to have him moved into another role. That action of mine almost cost Hopler his position. He has come back even stronger, in my opinion. I have shared with Hopler himself and with the board that He is "gentle" at first but if you don't agree with him he then turns on you and can be ruthless. John never directly answered this direct accusation to him in front of all. The board was scared of Whitney and Hopler. I addressed even that.

I know my answer was elaborate but this history shows you that change is difficult. I have no resentment at this point. I have made mistakes and have apologize for my part. They have not. I forgive them and bless them as individuals who love Christ the best they can as I also try.

There are many churches, denominations, and groups that have the same kind of stagnation and stubbornness. They experience same back-stabbing, ego-worship, God-talk, hurting those they serve, etc. The specific issues may vary  but there is "nothing new under the sun." History repeats itself in cycles. With every movement of God you see it eventually getting rigor-mortise and stagnation. GC is just another one. More will come and go. They will shine bright and then diminish after their hour in the sun is up. God is God and to Him be the Glory! Let us each walk humbly before our God.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Didn't RW just start a new church in Kansas?  Does that mean that he isn't "committed to his local church" in Colorado "for life"?  Wasn't he supposed to "plant his flag and die there"?  What about that "band of brothers"?  

It's funny to me that it's acceptable to move FOR the sake of the gospel if the leaders SAY that the move is FOR the sake of the gospel and that move is approved as such.  

But if you just wanted to move to California because it's nice and sunny and it makes you feel happier overall then that would be a frivolous selfish idea.  

That is slavery to the local church.  Bondage.  UnAmerican.  No. No. NO!!!

We shouldn't HAVE to live where they say we should live.  It's so wrong.

So this commitment they call people to the "local" church really means the entire worldwide body of Great Commission churches.  So why keep saying "local"?

[wastedyearsthere]

When we were with the church we were told if we moved and went to another GCC church that was acceptable.  Of course, being sent out is another story -- definitely approved.

I have another story which is they sent out a church that I wanted to go with and I was told I couldn't go.

[Linda]

So this commitment they call people to the "local" church really means the entire worldwide body of Great Commission churches.  So why keep saying "local"?

Exactly.

At the Fanning the Flame talk, MD said he would die in a GC church. That was jolting for us to hear. Unfortunately, I guess, for most of the people listening, it was no big deal.

Honestly, if you hear a talk like that, and don't think anything's wrong, I really can't help you!

According to I Corinthians, the sectarian, unity, commitment for life to a group of leaders thing IS what causes division. For all the unity talk, the preach and live division.

I appeal to you, brothers,  by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

[EverAStudent]

I emailed him directly and quoted to him his own words implying that people leaving were either out of favor from God or were missing God's will. He did not answer me directly but said something evasive like, "Bless you brother, you are a man of passion... Love Rick." In the past I have even confronted him on his "blip" answers like that that never totally address the questions I've put to him. In essence he does know that I don't agree with him on this matter and I believe he knows subconsciously that he lives a dichotomy/dissonance in the presence of so many godly men out there that are not part of GC.

I probably could fill a book from all the communications I have had directly to every National Leader, the Board, to Rick. I repeatedly told each man on the board that God was going to judge them if they would not make changes to their lives and the movement.

Good!  

I can only imagine the reaction of your congregation when, after the GC leaders did not listen to you, you brought it to the church and told them that the "commit yourself to the local assembly for life" doctrine was error on the part of GC leadership!

[lone gone]

already out of the movement, I emailed him directly and quoted to him his own words

you missed the first words........ Sam was out of the GC church by then so he couldn't go to it and there wasn't a reaction.

[EverAStudent]

you missed the first words........ Sam was out of the GC church by then so he couldn't go to it and there wasn't a reaction.

My bad.  

So, apparently, no one in active leadership within GC has ever rebuked another leader for teaching the error "you will be out of God's will if you do not commit yourself for life to your local assemply."

[Linda]

I have been revisiting my old GC notes. The ones that led to our departure and/or confirmed that we were right in doing so. Here is what the man giving the commitment for life talk at the upcoming Faithwalkers wrote about loyalty to "the movement" a couple years ago.

On the positive side, I can't say they are beating around the bush. They are saying exactly what they believe. They want you to be zealous for them, FOR LIFE.

I recently heard a brother comment on our church association’s recent history.  He used the phrase, “Our organizational wilderness . . . ”  He was reflecting on some of the changes that we have been wrestling with as a church movement.  
   I understand what he means. We have gone through changes and it seems like there is no end to the number of Great Commission, “GC acronyms”, that we can come up with.  I understand his humor and maybe his partial frustration.
   But honestly, nothing has changed.  We are still the same group of men and our bond remains strong.  We have lost a few and yes, it hurts and yes, there have been challenges.  All movements of God have lost men.  Even our Lord lost a few.
   But nothing has really changed.
 
Joining the Ranks

   If someone is going to “cross over” in their heart and join us, the steps are still the same.  In our local church, in our region, in our movement.  

   1.  They show up.  And they keep showing up.
   2.  They begin to process and understand what our core beliefs are.
   3.  They hold to our beliefs, and begin to speak up for them.  
      They “own” our vision.
   4.  They ‘roll up their sleeves’ and get involved in serving.
   5.  They begin to be faithful in sharing their time, their money, their
      home and resources - in our shared vision, our common cause.
   6.  And they say, “This is my family and I will fight for it.”

   This is how someone joins our ranks in a local church.  This is how someone joins our region.  This is how someone joins our movement.  The steps are exactly the same.  This process is what we are looking for in our local church and it is what we are looking for across this movement of churches.

[boboso]

Our movement. Our church. (!)

<GCx speak>
That's right, Jesus Christ is the head of the church in the Bible, but we're the only true church and our leadership is the head in the local church. Don't forget, if you find us conflicting with the Bible, just do as we tell you. Don't bother using critical thinking and searching God for yourself either because we've got all the answers.

Also, if you listen to other spiritual leaders -- no matter how educated and how they've proven their love for God over and over -- it's still wrong to receive teaching from anyone else but us. This is our movement. Our church. For life. Keep filling our pockets with money and devoting yourself to unnecessary un-Biblical works and subjecting to our endless guilt-trips too.
</GCx speak>

The very sad truth is, this is very close to what I was told. The "leadership" really believes this and the wanna-be leaders all have to drink this to the last drop. This is beyond sick.

[wastedyearsthere]

Also -- if you plan on having something such as a Bible Study in your home you need to check with leadership of the church.  Same holds true for something like a Tuperware party or getting friends together in the church.  

Don't plan on living with people without getting the Elder's approval.  Don't plan on a trip without getting counsel of the Elder's.  

Don't go to other friends church event's.  It might confuse you since the teaching is going to be different from GCC's teachings.  

Only have friends with people inside GCC except for the purpose of evangelism or discipleship.  Otherwise, a leader is likely to come to your door asking you if that is the wisest use of your time.  Don't spend time alone with the opposite sex unless you are courting or have approval from the Elders to court or spend alone time.

These are just a few of the oddities I put up with for TOO long before I saw the light.

[EverAStudent]

There is a chasm between the idea of training and equipping the saints to live their lives in service to Christ, and directing the living of those lives for the saints.

It is my fear that GC leadership have somehow leaped the chasm and now reside on the "directing the living of the lives of others" side.

[Linda]

Of course, the "go to" verse is Hebrews 13:17:

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Never mind what the rest of Hebrews or the New Testament says.

Never mind that Christians have the Holy Spirit to guide them so when they choose Old Testament examples (the favorite being Moses and the rabble) they seem to be forgetting about Pentecost.

Never mind that Matthew 23 tells us to make no man our master or that I Peter tells us all believers are a chosen race and a royal priesthood.

Never mind that all the "leaders" of this "movement" got their position by being "recognized" by previous "elders" in a long line of succession all the way back to Jim McCotter who basically appointed himself. (I guess Clark, McCotter, and Martindale got together and appointed themselves, so there was "plurality"!) Never mind that Matthew 23 warns us of those who do things to be seen (recognized).

A couple years ago, while still trying to work through the "commitment to the local church for life argument", I asked my brother-in-law (a CMA pastor of 50 years) his opinion of this. His response was, "I don't know what you mean by "the local church". All Christians in a town, from all denominations are "the local church." We should be devoted to all Christians.

I then asked him about Hebrews 13:17 and whether or not he believed that this meant church members needed to obey the pastor on matters of where to live or what job to take. His response was to the effect that it would be really foolish for a pastor to assume he knew the career path of every member.

[wastedyearsthere]

This brings me to the subject which is so prevalent in GCC churches.  How they take a verse out of context and use it to control the actions of the members......

They have key verses for everything -- they pull them out of context used to make them submit.

[EverAStudent]

Of course, the "go to" verse is Hebrews 13:17

This brings me to the subject which is so prevalent in GCC churches. How they take a verse out of context and use it to control the actions of the members......

They have key verses for everything -- they pull them out of context used to make them submit.

Yes, when Hebrews 13:17 is used to "prove" that the elders should have the authority to dominate the lives of others, they have used the passage improperly.

Similarly, there is freedom to remove ourselves from one church governance and to place ourselves under another (Acts 11:19, 18:24). Such is the liberty granted us by God’s Word when it intentionally does not regulate church membership.

Some church members, by misunderstanding Hebrews 13:17, may be intimidated into remaining within a church that they otherwise might have been led out of by guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. (Hebrews 13:17)

Yet, the wording, "obey your leaders and submit to them" is best understood in the Greek as, "be convinced [by the theology] of your leaders and surrender [to their teaching]." It would be inappropriate to use this passage to attempt to argue that pastors can command obedience in all matters of life, such as who to marry or which church to attend. They are Bible teachers and spiritual counselors, not governors, police officers, or legislators. As they convince us of godly living from the pages of God’s Word, so we submit to Christ’s written commandments that we may live holy and productive lives. -- http://thefaithfulword.org/leavingchurch.html

[AgathaL'Orange]

It would make sense to me for a Catholic priest to request that his church members always remain in a Catholic church.  The same could be said for Eastern Orthodoxy and other particular denominations.  What is strange about GC is that GC is made of supposedly autonomous churches that really answer to no one.  They invented a lot of their ideas either out of thin air, books various people read, and picking and choosing from Plymouth Brethren and a few others.

That is why it is so strange to me to commit to something so hodge podge for LIFE.  I honestly have no problem with a Catholic person expecting to remain Catholic for life... a Protestant person Protestant for life.

But in most "normal" denomination or mainline church, there is a brotherhood of belief that seeks to be unified with DOCTRINE and not EMOTION.  GC is NOT wanting us to be unified over doctrine, but instead wishes us to be unified in obedience and sharing the workload, having a positive attitude towards leadership, etc.

The Orthodox church believes it is the true church.  If you take communion in a Lutheran church you have excommunicated yourself from the church.  You must rejoin the church.  But even in this ancient belief there is an allowance.  If you move to an area that does NOT have an Orthodox church, you may get special permission to receive the sacraments from a Catholic church.  So even there, people are "allowed" to move where there is no Orthodox church.

Why does GC think they're so great?  They've been around since the 70's!  I mean come on... what good came out of the 70's (except me of course?)  Are we really going to DIE in a church created by people in bell bottoms?  Are we going to devote the rest of our lives to a church to the detriment of our own development.

It's much better for them to say, "Die a follower of Christ.  Do not ever let yourself stop following Christ.  Do not abandon other Christians.  Seek out fellowship with Christians.  Write the words of God on your heart.  Stand for God everywhere you go."

To me, GC's commands to stay at your local church till you die, is enslavement.  They want your labor, your heart, your mind, your money, your children's service, your Saturdays, and your hopes and dreams.

That is not theirs to take.  That belongs to me which I then give to God, my family, and my world.