Totally Committed

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[MidnightRider]

I mean come on... what good came out of the 70's (except me of course?)  

Some pretty good rock music.

[boboso]

Yes, the "leadership" quoted Heb. 13:17 to me and yes, used this to explain why I should blindly follow them. And yes, I quoted the above scriptures to counter argue, then I was told to submit to authority. That's when I told them: it's over. We're outta here.

On a much more positive note:

Quota Agatha: "It's much better for them to say, "Die a follower of Christ. Do not ever let yourself stop following Christ. Do not abandon other Christians. Seek out fellowship with Christians. Write the words of God on your heart. Stand for God everywhere you go."

Yes. This is what I'm talking about.

Let me know when you decide to start your own denomination/organization/company, Agatha -- I'll be the first to join with that statement

[AgathaL'Orange]

I mean come on... what good came out of the 70's (except me of course?)  

Some pretty good rock music.

Good point.  I really think lots of good things came from the 70's!  But recently I've been suspecting groups that uncover new revelations or new ways of reading or following the Bible.  I think the old ways are tried and true and work just fine if you're willing to follow them!  


Boboso:  Thank you!  You're so nice!

[Linda]

Didn't RW just start a new church in Kansas?  Does that mean that he isn't "committed to his local church" in Colorado "for life"?  Wasn't he supposed to "plant his flag and die there"?  What about that "band of brothers"?

I looked up the web site of this church and was surprised to see it mentions that Rick and Neva Whitney "co-pastored" a church in CO and Pat and Cindy Sokoll "co-pastored" a church in Iowa City. Since when did GC allow women to be pastors? Do the women get "recognized" and go through the GCLI training?

[EverAStudent]

But in most "normal" denomination or mainline church, there is a brotherhood of belief that seeks to be unified with DOCTRINE and not EMOTION. GC is NOT wanting us to be unified over doctrine, but instead wishes us to be unified in obedience and sharing the workload, having a positive attitude towards leadership, etc.

Now that is something I never thought about before!  GC is primarily organized around and unified through a common "rule of obedience" and not a conference of common doctrine.  Good observation!

[MidnightRider]

It would make sense to me for a Catholic priest to request that his church members always remain in a Catholic church.  The same could be said for Eastern Orthodoxy and other particular denominations.  What is strange about GC is that GC is made of supposedly autonomous churches that really answer to no one.  They invented a lot of their ideas either out of thin air, books various people read, and picking and choosing from Plymouth Brethren and a few others.

Let's don't get carried away. The Roman Catholic church has had its own scandals, and some of these scandals have been far worse than anything reported in GCx. Not only that, but the idea that you have to stay in the Roman Catholic church (because, they say, they are the true church) has often been crucial in keeping the scandal going.

Whether RC or GCx, it is the same appalling arrogance that says you have to stay in our church no matter what we teach or do because this is God's only true church.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I'm not saying you should be Catholic or anything.  I'm merely pointing out that when you become Catholic, it's expected you'll follow the Pope.  I don't think people are aware of the "GC till you die" doctrine when they first join.  That's all.  It's one of those bait and switch things.

Kind of like a website saying a husband and wife co-pastor a church.  Then you join and realize that women aren't REALLY pastoring a church.  So that's strange.  It goes along with the same kind of thing GC always does which is appear different on the outside while the inside is actually very different.

It's how they get all the people who want a young, hip, progressive congregation.  They meet in a loft space, have cool music, and talk "emergent"... then you join and realize that the group is actually quite controlling and old fashioned.  You might have started out aiming for medical school, joining the church and then becoming an untrained pastor.  You may be a woman that likes a guy, then you realize you can't just LIKE a guy without permission (if you are core of course).

[MidnightRider]

I'm not saying you should be Catholic or anything.  I'm merely pointing out that when you become Catholic, it's expected you'll follow the Pope.  I don't think people are aware of the "GC till you die" doctrine when they first join.  That's all.  It's one of those bait and switch things.

There is more than one way to do the bait and switch. Many RCs "join" during childhood, and so don't really understand what "for life" means.

But suppose we only consider adult converts. When they join and are told they should stay Catholic for life, I doubt that they are told, "You should stay Catholic even if a priest molests your child and the bishop moves the priest so that he doesn't have to face any consequences."

[AgathaL'Orange]

I'm not Roman Catholic, I have no wish to be Roman Catholic, I'm not defending Roman Catholics.  

I'm just saying that in a small, loosely affiliated association of churches, it seems unusual to me to expect people to stay with them forever.  It's not like they're really world wide or anything.  It's just incredibly confining if you really aren't supposed to move anywhere there isn't a GC church.  I'm trying to compare that with the larger, more widespread, more doctrinally delineated denominations.  That's all.

Clearly the abuse of children in Roman Catholic churches and the subsequent cover ups are horrible abuses of power!  I agree with you on that!

[theresearchpersona]

That is assuming, however, that they're still delineated doctrinally; many times they are not: they may be on paper, but moreoften these groups have become groups centered around social endeavors or church-culture (not church of believers) type gathering: not too far from where GC is likely headed (and there with some of the members born into the group). American Roman Catholicism is a great example of this: a bunch of jack-catholics that pretend to be otherwise, who have little care for whatever Rome says, or the Bible for that matter; for instance, on gender neutral, Rome condemned such tampering with Scripture, yet the Bishops here affixed the imprimatur to the NAB which does like to meddle.

There's a big reason that the big denoms in this last century, all the way to present, keep splitting: the believers often going renegade from what's corrupt and forming new associations: this is the reason groups like the OPC and PCA (the PCA itself could use a massive shakedown and splintering because of its rampant departures and a lot of circumlocution of pastors who dodge accountability to their standards not unlike the two-side mouth-speaking of many of those who've been avoiding accountability in GC) formed; it's the reason many of the different "Reformed" denoms keep splinterring into an ever growing number of groups for departures from their (usually very scriptural) standards.

What happens is you get culture-christians ("the faith of my father/mother...of my father/mother...") who decide to start acting like Christians, for one; on the other hand, you get the idea men who think they can have this lovely life they'll enjoy very much by joining, then running, Churches: the first group is just tragic, not for their own sakes only, but because they're without discernment; the second dangerous, because they're really only interested in their ideas, not Scripture taught rightly (sound familiar). This second group, from within and without, almost without fail leads every group ever in history to a fall...and the believers who're complacent get taken, those who oppose it...leave.

This is what I notice about the history of Christian groups; I think this is also the kind of thing GC was trying to avoid...but they did so by misdiagnosing the problem and went right into the practices that doomed so many others.

[MidnightRider]

I'm just saying that in a small, loosely affiliated association of churches, it seems unusual to me to expect people to stay with them forever.  It's not like they're really world wide or anything.  It's just incredibly confining if you really aren't supposed to move anywhere there isn't a GC church.  I'm trying to compare that with the larger, more widespread, more doctrinally delineated denominations.  That's all.

AgLO,

So if GCx had churches in every town like the RCs do, you wouldn't have a problem with their "GCx 4 Life" teaching?

[MidnightRider]

There's a big reason that the big denoms in this last century, all the way to present, keep splitting: the believers often going renegade from what's corrupt and forming new associations: this is the reason groups like the OPC and PCA (the PCA itself could use a massive shakedown and splintering because of its rampant departures and a lot of circumlocution of pastors who dodge accountability to their standards not unlike the two-side mouth-speaking of many of those who've been avoiding accountability in GC) formed; it's the reason many of the different "Reformed" denoms keep splinterring into an ever growing number of groups for departures from their (usually very scriptural) standards.

I have been in a PCA church off and on over the years. As best as I understand it, its seeds of dissension were sown at the very beginning. When they exited the Southern Presbyterian church, there were some Reformed folks who wanted to stay true to the Westminster standards. There were also some evangelicals who were not so Reformed, but the Westminster Confession was a handy stick to hit the liberals with.  8-)

So they have ongoing arguments about how closely church officers have to subscribe to the Westminster Confession and Catechisms. I think they will get it sorted out in another 500 years or so.

[Linda]

I'm just saying that in a small, loosely affiliated association of churches, it seems unusual to me to expect people to stay with them forever.  It's not like they're really world wide or anything.  It's just incredibly confining if you really aren't supposed to move anywhere there isn't a GC church.  I'm trying to compare that with the larger, more widespread, more doctrinally delineated denominations.  That's all.

AgLO,

So if GCx had churches in every town like the RCs do, you wouldn't have a problem with their "GCx 4 Life" teaching?

The thing is, when you join the RC church, you pretty much are told up front what the deal is and what is expected of you. It's not the bait and switch thing.

[theresearchpersona]

But in most "normal" denomination or mainline church, there is a brotherhood of belief that seeks to be unified with DOCTRINE and not EMOTION. GC is NOT wanting us to be unified over doctrine, but instead wishes us to be unified in obedience and sharing the workload, having a positive attitude towards leadership, etc.

Now that is something I never thought about before!  GC is primarily organized around and unified through a common "rule of obedience" and not a conference of common doctrine.  Good observation!

By the way, I always put it as something more like a common rule of "what we're doing", organizing (at least these days) around the vision and goals they've set for themselves, and only then using this to justify the rule of obedience which they teach and believe is ultimately necessarily to make these things happen.

Nevermind, I guess, whether these things are even biblical: which often they are either not, or done unbiblically, or at the expense of obedience and what the Bible actually says about the Church and Christ and etc.. and it only makes matters worse as the mix of doctrines from everywhere makes things proceed from bad to worse, while their training makes it increasingly subtle to dodge accountability to that very Bible they profess to be the source of their practices and beliefs.

[puff of purple smoke]

   10:50-12 pm Main Session, "Totally Committed to the Local Church For the Rest of My Life," John Hopler

I really hate it when GC uses this phrase! It has nothing to do with being committed to your "local church" for life, and instead has everything to do with being committed to GC and GC alone, to the point that you will be told not to move unless there is a GC church in the town you are moving to. Why don't they just come out in their sermon title and say it, rather than feign some sort of generic principle (commitment to a 'local church') that isn't really in the bible and then apply it to GC as a whole. This is MANIPULATION for the sake of keeping people in their doors!

And looking over the schedule of seminars makes me especially glad I'm not in the movement anymore, simply because I've already heard all of those sermons numerous times before, as I'm sure most of the people going to the conference have. I guess the big draw is getting to hear the same old message preached by one of GC's big time celebrities like Mark Darling and John Hopler.

[Linda]

My daughter sent me this quote on commitment from Major W. Ian Thomas:

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Truth, and as in all other things that pertain, unto life and godliness" (11 Peter 1:3), He is the Truth about true commitment. He was committed to the Father for all that to which the Father was committed in the Son, and He was supremely confident that the Father who dwelt in Him, was gloriously adequate for all that to which He was committed. We know also that the Saviour's commitment to His Father was such that the Father was completely committed to His Son!

The Lord Jesus Christ refused to be committed to the parochial needs of His own day and generation; He was not committed to the political situation in Palestine, or to the emancipation of the Jewish nation from the Roman yoke! He was not committed to the pressing social problems of His time, nor to one faction as opposed to another, any more than today He is committed to the West against the East, or to the Republicans against the Democrats (as though either were less wicked than the other!). Christ was not even committed to the needs of a perishing world; He was neither unmindful nor unmoved by all these other issues, but as Perfect Man He was committed to His Father, and for that only to which His Father was committed in Him  exclusively!

The basis of His commitment to the Father is the basis upon which the Lord Jesus Christ claims your commitment to Him; you are committed to Him for all that to which He is committed in you  exclusively!

You are not committed to a church, or to a denomination, or to an organization; as a missionary you are not committed to a Mission Board nor even to a "field," and least of all are you committed to a "need"! You are committed to Christ, and for all that to which Christ is committed in You, and again I say  exclusively!

[saved]

GC is not the only church that abuses or has an elitist attitude.  We left GC and went to a Southern Baptist church.  People kept asking me how long I'd been a Baptist.  I'm not sure I ever was.  I'd tell them I'd been a Christian since 1987... 

Upon leaving a SB church you are expected to get a letter of transfer to another one.  Since we went to another denomination we are still on the rolls at the SB church.  They won't take us off until they know we're dead or transfered.

As far as co-pastoring a church... they may not have the title but GC pastor's wives have a distinct pastoral role.  And early on I understood that the only way I'd ever be a "pastor" in GC was to marry one and do ministry as his wife to the women of the congregation.

It was so odd when we left and at the next three churches we attended the pastor's wives all worked full-time outside the home, with relatively limited involvement (at least compared to a GC pastor's wife) in the church.

[Daniel Hopler]

Hi, I just read your article. I'm sorry, you obviously are mixed up with some things. I think you are taking some things said severely out of context. Being committed to the local church is general commitment. It's a very good thing. The call is one to be a servant; not to go against the family that God put in place before the church. That's the last thing that the speaker was trying to put across. I think that this blog site is just wrong. Proverbs speaks of staying away from the scoffer. How is this website glorifying to God? I just challenge you with that. "I say this out of love, if you are a follower and pursuer of the Pursuer, Jesus Christ, I would encourage you to just evaluate where your heart is.

[Linda]

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for taking the time to post. I'm not sure what "article" you are referring to. What specific things did you think we were "mixed up" on? I would be happy to try to clarify anything that I have said.

To commit to a specific church for life can be a very dangerous thing. First of all, it is not found in the Bible. What if God calls you somewhere else? How can you know for sure that God's plan for you is to stay at a certain church for the rest of your life? What if some of the leaders at that church started teaching something that was wrong and you had committed to them for life? Interestingly enough, the founder of GC, Jim McCotter didn't even commit for life since he left in the mid-80's.

A scoffer is someone who makes fun of something. In the case of Psalm 1, where we are told to "not sit in the seat of scoffers", I believe it is referring to people who make fun of God. We are not making fun of God here. I love Jesus Christ. And, I love His Church. I am part of His Church.

One way that God is glorified is when people speak the truth and try to help people see error. I believe that many leaders in GC have slipped into error. The kind thing to do is to try to point out error and help people correct it. My husband and I met with many pastors for many months to try to help them see the error (which we have talked about on this forum). Unfortunately, we were misled by them because we were not given the full picture. They withheld important information about our church and GC.

After all that, at an HSLT, our daughter was asked to make a lifetime commitment to our local church. She was 17. When students are living at home, their parents decide where they go to church. The leaders tried to usurp our God given parental authority. This was a very bad thing.

It is always a good thing to evaluate your heart, I agree. However, sometimes, following God, means letting people think ill of you--even letting them think you have a "heart to divide". I know that some think we are divisive and slanderous because they've told us so. I'm sorry you think that about some of us posting here. Personally, I don't believe I have ever said anything slanderous here. As far as I know, I have only spoken the truth. I would like to correct anything I've said that isn't true.

In all honesty, I can't help but think that it is slander when people say that those posting on this forum have a heart to divide. That is a very serious judgment of character on a lot of people who are trying to be faithful to God. Plus, according to the Bible, no one can judge a heart, except God.

Hope that helps you understand some things. Thanks for posting.

[puff of purple smoke]

I'm not sure what "article" you are referring to.

He is referring to your first post of this thread, which is featured on the front page. It looks sort of like an article on the front page.

Daniel, you are suggesting the teachings on "commitment to your local church" are about a commitment to God's universal church for the rest of your life. But this is not what is taught in GC. Instead, it is taught as commitment to the "movement" for life. Here is a quote from the 2005 HSLT sermon "Commitment 9 and 10" by Mark Darling:

     Commitment Number Nine. Make the commitment to devote yourself to your local church for the rest of your life. This is going to be controversial, I will explain it. Devote yourself to your local church for the rest of your life. You need other Christians, you need the body of Jesus Christ. There are a lot of Christians today that frankly are not committed, but they like to say they are. To the universal. I'm committed to the universal body of Christ, Mark. I visit this church over here for a while, and then I date this church over here for a while, and then I date this church over here for a while and then I show up at these 22 Christian concerts over here. And it's this wonderful life. Let me tell you something, that is not the kind of commitment I'm talking about, nor do I believe it is the kind of commitment the New Testament is talking about. But it's linking yourself arm in arm in the local church with men and women of like mind and doing something great together, together.
[...]
    I made a determination as a young man to not leave my church in Ames until and only when I was sent. I was sent. Now, there is, of course, maybe a unique exception within "our movement" and it's a beautiful thing it's why some of us moved to different cities, big metropolitan areas. One, you may need a job and you can still stay linked with Great Commission Churches because you can find one in that city. Secondly, you may be leaving your local church to go to college to join another Great Commission Church that's like minded and I think that will equally accomplish the same thing. I'm here for life. You're not getting rid of me. I'm here.
[...]
I'm here. I'm with these Christians. I'm with Great Commission. That's where I'll stay. That's where they'll bury me and that's where I'm going to make my stand...because this is where God supernaturally led me.

The audio is available here: http://gcxweb.org/Audio/Comm9and10-HSLT-07-24-2005.aspx