We Did it Our Way...

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[lone gone]

Wait a minute...so you are saying tradition is OK? That doesn't sound scriptural!   The sarcasm comes through.

Just in case someone else doesn't get it,   when you teach the traditions of men as the way of God or of the traditions supplant the way of God ... then it is wrong.

Organized worship experiences are not wrong.... God commanded them for the Jews, and God allows Christians to do the same.

I assisted at last night's Maundy Thursday Service. Just because I was behind the rail and assisting the ministers as they stripped the alter doesn't make me an important person. I was merely a servant doing his part.  My wife was asked to participate in the ritual foot washing by allowing the ministers to wash her feet. She wasn't important, she was being a servant by being served.

Since we have three Scripture readings at service, we never now which text the minister will use as the basis for his sermon. Totally unpredictable.

If I want a book study, I go to Bible class. If I want a topical study, I go to a different Bible class. If I want a timely pertinent and applied message, I listen to the sermon portion of the worship service.   The beginning of the service prepares my heart for the sermon.The sermon prepares me for the rest of the worship service.  This is quite different from what I experienced at less liturgical churches.

[theresearchpersona]

This evening I sat with my children and we watched as, at the end of the Maundy Thursday service, the altar was stripped of its paramounts and trappings, the flowers were removed, the pulpit and lectern stripped as well.  Afterward the congregation left in silence.

Tradition can be empty, but it can also be a very powerful symbol, that even a small child can grasp the meaning of.

Scripture readings can be ignored, but if one attends my church weekly they'll have heard the entire Bible read through in three years, and some stories they'll hear each year.

Christmas may not be anywhere near the actual time of year when Christ was born, but Easter often aligns nicely (as it should) with Passover.  Regardless of when Christ was actually born, the yearly times of Advent and Christmas, Lent and Easter provide continuity and structure, as well as a yearly opportunity to review the basics of the faith with our children.

Liturgy can be dead, but it can also be vibrant and meaningful, and provide a structure that is not only comfortable in its familiarity but useful... praise, word, response, meal... we do what we do for a reason, not by whim.

Tomorrow night my children will see the altar and crosses draped in black.  The Tenebrae service will be led entirely by laiety and the last words of Christ will be read.  As each is read, the candles will be extinguished and the lights turned off until nothing remains but the Christ candle.  That will be carried out and a loud crash will represent the closing of the tomb.  The candle will return representing the hope of Easter morning and the congregation will depart in silence in the dark. 

Then on Saturday, for Easter Vigil, my children will come back into a dark church.  As the service proceeds the lights will come on and we'll celebrate the Risen Christ.

I love modern music, and old hymns too.  I dislike people who simply go through the motions, and it will be annoying on Easter Sunday when droves of people who never attend normally come all decked out in their Easter finery.  But I adore Maundy Thursday, Tenebrae, and Easter Vigil... the people who attend these services (as well as Ash Wednesday) are the heart of our church.  These services are meaningful and rich. 

So, just a plug for a little tradition...

Having good fills of readings through Scripture is a good practice. : ) The little place I'm at nowadays does them (readings) too. I don't know if we'd get through in three years, and then as for the preaching itself, as far as it's going right now we might get through 2 Corinthians in three years (actually very edifying to go through slow, deeply, etc., and at risk at sounding irreverent, but not so, convenient therefore to have mp3 players to sync messages too for review!). : ) Appropriately, 2 Corinthians 4 is all about preaching Christ, not ourselves--quite stark contrast to getting-out of "be cool for Jesus" kind of "Christianity"! (And just what is needed--balm from el Doctor).

Organized worship experiences are not wrong.... God commanded them for the Jews, and God allows Christians to do the same.

I think it depends on the purpose of them. Obviously we organize--like getting together! Obviously it's not bad to have celebrations, occasions, etc., either! I think it is wrong when the pomp and circumstance is there to evoke feeling (now I'm using that in the 19th century sense, mind you, that of sentiments born of deep belief in truth, not pure emotional sentiments: I know that's stragne, but the best word for this statement) out of those who lack (that kind of) feeling; sort of like trying to convict and encourage and give joy to the dead: hateful. That's been the problem with so much in the last few hundred years--only a couple years after the great awakening did this sort-of "spiritual-less" Christianity, a sort of program/success/figures(numbers) pragmatism arise and start touting itself in the ways I and others have warned here, the denial of the Spirit that so troubled so many of us was realized then and some so agonized over sounding the alarm that they shored-up what they could--whoever God blessed with open ears, but popularity then, as today, greatly helped spread the phenomena: its subtlety is just astounding, it's a kind of things so counterfeit that trying to tell what is what these days is quite the exercise: but practice makes perfect (mature--eventually). : )

[DrSam]

I just thought about some very powerful times that some Christians have over Cuban Cigars, a beer, and some Bibles. Deep fellowship, encouragement, piety, and passion for the resurrected Christ has been the result of such. I also know of a friend of mine that has some pretty amazing "God-parties" where the Spirit of God moves. It is in a bar. The "liturgical process" is different. Any thoughts?  

[lone gone]

I think it is wrong when the pomp and circumstance is there to evoke feeling (now I'm using that in the 19th century sense, mind you, that of sentiments born of deep belief in truth, not pure emotional sentiments: I know that's stragne, but the best word for this statement) out of those who lack (that kind of) feeling; sort of like trying to convict and encourage and give joy to the dead: hateful. That's been the problem with so much in the last few hundred years--only a couple years after the great awakening did this sort-of "spiritual-less" Christianity, a sort of program/success/figures(numbers) pragmatism arise and start touting itself in the ways I and others have warned here, the denial of the Spirit that so troubled so many of us was realized then and some so agonized over sounding the alarm that they shored-up what they could--whoever God blessed with open ears, but popularity then, as today, greatly helped spread the phenomena: its subtlety is just astounding, it's a kind of things so counterfeit that trying to tell what is what these days is quite the exercise: but practice makes perfect (mature--eventually). : )

I am not sure I follow you.... it being incorrect to use Pomp and Circumstance to evoke feelings from those lacking in feeling. 

God does just that. Descriptions of the activities around the throne in heaven are revealed to us and we are either moved or not. Natural phenomena are cited by Paul as able to educate us about the power and majesty of God. The ancient Isrealites had an earthly copy of the heavenly temple, and there was a corresponding manifestation of God's presence from time to time in the tabernacle and later in the temple.

I'll add this,  We members of mankind can corrupt ANYTHING...... even the best we have can be twisted and corrupted. Even the purest assembly has sin in it's midst.....

So whether you pomp it up or refuse to do so, Whether you use ascetic self denying plain old nothing for your worship... or you use over the top glitz and glitter and sound and light to accompany your worship.... both kinds can be selfish or selfless. Both kinds can be expressions of gratitude,sorrow,repentance,joy. They can also be Pharisaical demonstrations of self righteousness.

[lone gone]

I'll add this on this Easter morning. I pray that you all experience joy in the risen Savior today and every day.

[saved]

I'll add this on this Easter morning. I pray that you all experience joy in the risen Savior today and every day.

Amen and you too!

[G_Prince]

I just thought about some very powerful times that some Christians have over Cuban Cigars, a beer, and some Bibles. Deep fellowship, encouragement, piety, and passion for the resurrected Christ has been the result of such. I also know of a friend of mine that has some pretty amazing "God-parties" where the Spirit of God moves. It is in a bar. The "liturgical process" is different. Any thoughts?  

Some of the greatest theological discussion I have had involved German Beer. Makes you wonder if that's how Luther got to thinking.

[lone gone]

I nkow for a fact and personal experience that beer plays a part during after hours discussions at Lutheran Seminaries.

[miserere]

Christ the Lord is risen!
The Lord is risen indeed.  Alleluia!!

[DrSam]

I nkow for a fact and personal experience that beer plays a part during after hours discussions at Lutheran Seminaries.

Long Gone... I'm a member of a great little Group on Facebook called "Theology Pub" Check it out.

[lone gone]

Theology Pub    ... which one?!?! there are several!