What's going on?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[Linda]

Someone just informed me that the band of brothers at Summitview Loveland has disbanded. Here is the link. What a bizarre statement.

http://www.summitviewcc.com

Also, why was a Faithwalker's West promoted on the web page, but never happened.

And, where is Rick Whitney?

Anyone know what is happening?

[EverAStudent]

Based soley on the content of the web announcement(s) and my prior experiences with GC and church startups, here is my best guess:
The church failed to grow large enough to support the pastors financially, so they moved on (either literally or simply got secular jobs) and disbanded the old church blaming the failure on the post-modern culture.  Some members wanted to continue but thought it would be unpolitic to use the same name for a much smaller church (i.e. embarrasing).  So the new church, Beggar's Gate, is started up with the remnant of the old GC church.  My best guess.

Will the new church, Beggar's Gate, admit it is tied to GC?  Will the national board give them authoritative directions which they must follow?  Stay tuned to this bat channel for the answers to these questions and more!

[Linda]

Haha, EAS.

And where is Rick Whitney!!!

[EverAStudent]

LOL  My "best guess"?  Maybe he repented and had to leave GC ?  LOL  JK

[Janet Easson Martin]

That would be wonderful!  For him, and for his example to many others!

[Linda]

Good point, Janet.

Here's a link explaining things. Clear as mud!

http://summitview.com/blog/entryid/21/a-quick-word-on-the-new-bulletin

Seriously, in what "normal" church do two pastors get their photos removed by some decision they made in executive session and the decision isn't explained or mentioned till someone notices.

[2xA Ron]

I think I was at Summitview when Pat first showed up as a "guest speaker."  Next thing I knew, he was full co-pastor.  There was no vote, no discussion, no general announcement.  Now, in an equally obscure move, he's "investing a lot of time elsewhere" and practically gone, not even on the bulletin or the website.

How do these people function in an atmosphere where leadership is simultaneously terribly overemphasized and horribly obscure?  How is your life supposed to revolve around leaders when no one will even say who the leaders are except on a "need-to-know" basis (when they decide you need to know, of course) and their decision-making process is a total black-box?  For all I knew in my time there, they could have decided things in the church, the Rock, and my small-group by gathering in a back room and tossing dice.  Even my workplace has clearer organization, and that's saying something since I work for a major retailer (who shall remain nameless) where management oversight and organization are a nightmare.

[araignee19]

Huh... I was there when that happened as well (or at least when he was appointed. I can't remember if I was still around or heard from a friend that he had moved on). I never even thought it was strange at the time that he was just appointed and then left. It is completely unusual that all of a sudden there was a new pastor who was not voted on or chosen by the congregation, and again that he just left with no explanation. Wow. How did I not see that?

[2xA Ron]

I didn't really see it either.  I'd gotten pretty used to being a "little guy" with no power in larger groups.  But looking back it is truly bizarre.  Back in high school and middle school when my home church (a small independent baptist church) had a change of pastors it was publicly announced and put to a vote by all members after the service.  And when the senior pastor left, it was a pretty big deal.  At Summitview it seems from this that you're doing good if you know who the pastors are.  Maybe they figure knowledge is power. 

[Linda]

I think I was at Summitview when Pat first showed up as a "guest speaker."  Next thing I knew, he was full co-pastor.  There was no vote, no discussion, no general announcement.

It is completely unusual that all of a sudden there was a new pastor who was not voted on or chosen by the congregation, and again that he just left with no explanation. Wow. How did I not see that?

Back in high school and middle school when my home church (a small independent baptist church) had a change of pastors it was publicly announced and put to a vote by all members after the service.  And when the senior pastor left, it was a pretty big deal.  At Summitview it seems from this that you're doing good if you know who the pastors are.

GC is pretty proud of their self-perpetuating pastor appointing, their form of apostolic succession and lack of a congregational vote. It is a core value.

They have the talking points down and love to teach them as often as possible.

1. The Bible says pastors should be men of character.

2. They begin with the blanket statement: "In most churches there is a senior pastor who is in charge. Lots of times he has an affair with the church secretary and people are afraid to confront him, so he stays on as pastor (this blanket statement actually slanders fellow Christians)." Interesting side point that I keep mentioning, at our last meeting with a pastor before we left, MD who sits on the national board replied, "I'm sure it's happened," when I mentioned that the loyalty in GC leadership could mean that a pastor had an affair, it was covered up, and he was still pastor. Clearly, if this has happened, their system has failed.

3. They say, in GC churches, we have a plurality of elders who are chosen out of the congregation based on character. Never mind that this "being recognized" thing could just be a bunch of men doing things to be "seen" (kind of like teacher's pet) so they will be "recognized". Never mind that the authority these men hold can be traced back to Jim McCotter a self-appointed apostle who bestowed authority upon others and all current GC elders can be traced back to a guy who just one day said, "Hey, I'm an apostle and I have the authority to appoint elders."

4. GC likes to say the elders "choose" a guy they think fills the NT requirements,  and point out they bring it before the congregation (however, it sounds like they are getting bolder in this and now bypassing the congregation entirely), never for a vote, but kind of like they used to say at weddings, "Is there anyone here who thinks this shouldn't happen, contact us privately with your reasons." This speaks volumes. Clearly, by their behavior, they demonstrate that they do not believe that the Holy Spirit gifts people with different gifts which include discernment, or, they would put pastors up for a congregational vote.

5. When asked about the congregational vote, they will say voting is an "American" idea and that the church is not a democracy. If they tell you that, ask them if they ever vote on things at their pastor's meetings and national board meetings. It would guess that democracy in their self-appointed boards happens all the time.

6. Their system is able to continue because their reasoning is flawed and illogical and people (like me) have fallen for it for many years.

Sadly, I believe there are many GC pastors trapped in this system. Can you imagine the horror of being a 40+ year GC guy and suddenly having your eyes opened to the truth of their faulty teaching. I would liken it to a late in life conversion and the horror of thinking you had wasted your life. I pray the men in this horrible system will have their eyes opened. They have been deceived.

[Huldah]

"Lack of congregational vote" as a core value. Interesting insight, Linda. And yet, how ironic, coming from an organization that fielded its own political candidates at one time.

Can you imagine the horror of being a 40+ year GC guy and suddenly having your eyes opened to the truth of their faulty teaching. I would liken it to a late in life conversion and the horror of thinking you had wasted your life.

This same thought has been on my mind recently. It may partially account for the unwillingness to abandon false teaching and the weakness of the various apologies. Many of the leaders are well into their 50's and 60's now, some perhaps are even older. How many people, who wanted so badly to do good for the Gospel, could face a legacy of emotional, financial, and spiritual abuse of the flock? That takes unusual courage.

Only God knows how much damage the GC leadership have caused their followers over the decades. Just think of all the abandoned dreams, abandoned educations, ill-advised marriages (or forsaking a potential marriage that might have been happy), poor financial choices, neglecting God-given natural gifts and career potential to pursue menial jobs, and (according to some sources) distress so severe it resulted in psychiatric inpatient treatment for some former members. (Reading between the lines: GC has driven people nearly to suicide.) That's got to break the heart of any leader who thought he was sincerely trying to serve God. I guess it should be no surprise that the leaders are in denial.

I don't write this as one who is judging them, but as one who has also made my share of serious mistakes. But here is the good news I've found to be true: God is faithful. In Him there is always hope and forgiveness, for all who humbly seek Him.

[Linda]

This same thought has been on my mind recently. It may partially account for the unwillingness to abandon false teaching and the weakness of the various apologies. Many of the leaders are well into their 50's and 60's now, some perhaps are even older. How many people, who wanted so badly to do good for the Gospel, could face a legacy of emotional, financial, and spiritual abuse of the flock? That takes unusual courage.

Only God knows how much damage the GC leadership have caused their followers over the decades. Just think of all the abandoned dreams, abandoned educations, ill-advised marriages (or forsaking a potential marriage that might have been happy), poor financial choices, neglecting God-given natural gifts and career potential to pursue menial jobs, and (according to some sources) distress so severe it resulted in psychiatric inpatient treatment for some former members. (Reading between the lines: GC has driven people nearly to suicide.) That's got to break the heart of any leader who thought he was sincerely trying to serve God. I guess it should be no surprise that the leaders are in denial.

I don't write this as one who is judging them, but as one who has also made my share of serious mistakes. But here is the good news I've found to be true: God is faithful. In Him there is always hope and forgiveness, for all who humbly seek Him.

This is very insightful and I think might express the heart of many posting here. We do not do these leaders or people in their congregations any favors when we do not expose their false teaching especially in the areas of commitment for life to GC and obedience to self-appointed elders.

Should any leader understand the error, they are faced with a horrible dilemma. Not only would they be faced with the horror of knowing they had led many into deception for most of their careers, their livelihood would be on the line. To speak up and correct in the GC system is to "slander". They would be removed and shunned or intimidated back into submission as it would appear happened to "distant thunder".

We were specifically told by MD that we should leave our church if it was our intent to point out the false teaching. So, we left. I'm not sure what we would have done if we did not have children in the system, perhaps we would have stayed and let them give us the boot. But, we had children to protect and MD assured us they would never change.

We were also told that if we spoke to others about it, they would have to "defend themselves". (Not sure if he meant legal action, or was just offering a blanket threat. Looking back it was very intimidating and at the same time pathetic.) I know and love many of the leader's and their families. I write this out of love for them and their congregations and pray one day, one or two of them, will prove to be the leaders they claim to be, stand up, and make public correction of the error they perpetuate.

[Huldah]

I hadn't even thought about the livelihood aspects of it. My guess is that the leaders probably opted out of Social Security (as some clergy are allowed to do) so they wouldn't even have that to fall back on. Adding to that, the economy isn't too friendly right now to unskilled, aging workers.

Leaving would be a tremendous act of faith.

[Linda]

Yes, it would. And pastors opting out of social security/medicare would have been a very foolish thing to do. I know just before we left, they were trying to buy a building and were suggesting church members cash in their retirement plans to contribute. Some pastors mentioned they were doing that (not sure if they followed through, though).

Also, even with all of their experience, without seminary, they could not get a job at most churches if they had to leave.

It would take a lot of courage to stand up against false teaching and could prove very costly.

I do feel a measure of pity for them. However, the longer they persist, the harder it will be for them. It's very sad that they don't see what they are doing.

[Huldah]

I know just before we left, they were trying to buy a building and were suggesting church members cash in their retirement plans to contribute.

  !!!!

[askingquestionsaboutGCI]

I know just before we left, they were trying to buy a building and were suggesting church members cash in their retirement plans to contribute.

  !!!!

They did the same at our church's fundraiser, too -- and I know for certain Linda and I did not attend the same GCx church.  Pretty gutsy pitch for those leaders to make..... 

[araignee19]

"Just trust God to provide..."

[Linda]

araignee19, you've heard it, also! "Cash in your retirement, give it to us, God is your provider."

Also, have you noticed there is always an element of "reaching the world in this generation"? That is not by chance, I am told, by a missionary working with cults in Japan. The idea that these are the end times and that the world can be reached in this generation are subtle suggestions that push people towards giving more money and time to the group. After all, if the Lord is about to return, you won't need your retirement account anyway.

Another thing that is big in cults is national gatherings. The JWs do this. Getting together with friends solidifies commitment to the group. People will be thinking about leaving and then a conference will come along, they attend, and are drawn back by the friendships.

[araignee19]

araignee19, you've heard it, also! "Cash in your retirement, give it to us, God is your provider."

Also, have you noticed there is always an element of "reaching the world in this generation"? That is not by chance, I am told, by a missionary working with cults in Japan. The idea that these are the end times and that the world can be reached in this generation are subtle suggestions that push people towards giving more money and time to the group. After all, if the Lord is about to return, you won't need your retirement account anyway.

Yeah, I've heard it. Most of the time it was more focused on "take out more student loans so you can live in the dorms, buy people coffee, and go on retreats. And don't count how much you spend on church activities, because to budget or track things would not be trusting God." This was because I was in the college group, so most of the people I interacted with didn't have retirement accounts to give. But I do think they said similar things in the Sunday morning service; such as "give from your savings to help us put in an electric sign by the road, and trust that God will provide and bless the sign." That was close to when I left, so my memory is a bit fuzzy (I was extremely burnt out and depressed, and kinda like a zombie). Even if they didn't say it specifically, I would say there was certainly the general mentality present.

And yeah, putting a deadline on something it is a common tactic with cults. Provides a sense of urgency, making you feel like you are missing out if you don't jump in, and also serves to increase the level of commitment you will give. I mean, who wouldn't want to give their life to a group if the world was going to end soon and the group had the answers? I think it's similar to the whole "live each day as if it was your last" idea. Well, if this was my last day, I would do a lot of things that would be stupid otherwise. It's not a realistic way to live, unless for some reason you know for sure you will actually die. God said we won't know when the end of the world is. This life is a marathon, not a sprint. I think we need to live as if that is true, and not run ourselves to death for some "end times" that we were not actually promised by God. GC takes advantage of the good things people wish to do by twisting scripture and convincing you God has said something he never did.

 

[Huldah]

"Cash in your retirement, give it to us, God is your provider."

And yet, God apparently is not the church's provider, when it comes to church buildings.  The church must raid the members' (probably meager) retirement savings, leaving them vulnerable in their old age when they're least able to provide for themselves.

Reminds me of Jesus's words about false teachers, that they are a thief who comes to steal and destroy (John 10:10).