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Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

Also, heard, "Have you inherited some money lately? You could give it to us.", "Did you get some cash from the hail storm damage to your car? Leave the dents in your car and give the money to us.", "Maybe you could give up your Starbuck's lattes, I mean, really you don't NEED coffee, so take the money you save and give it to us."

[EverAStudent]

"Life insurance is only for those who do not trust in God; invest the premiums in God's work today."
"Sign this giving-commitment-plege-card and show God your commitment to Him."
"I never saw a missionary begging in the streets, so do God's work now and trust that He will provide."  True, but I have seen plenty of missionaries begging in churches and talking about going without food, cars, and health care.

[Linda]

Of course, all these fundraising suggestions are not unique to GC and come out of the fundraising playbook. There are businesses that do this. Our church hired a group (congregation had no say, as per usual) and paid them lots of money to come up with these thoughts. I think the disturbing part is the implication that the church should be the recipient of all your extra cash.

I am thinking of a mega church in MN that wanted to build a new building. They told the congregation, didn't do a lot of hype and fell way short of their goal. Rather than squeezing money out of the congregation by guilt, they determined that God didn't want them building at this time. A few years later, they had the needed funds and now have the huge building they wanted.

Another thing. Does anyone know what GC pastors make? Pastors are able to divide their salaries into two parts. Housing (tax free) and salary. In addition, there are health insurance benefits, retirement, travel allowances, continuing education expenses, vacation, sabbaticals. All this should be known and approved by the congregation who is footing the bill. If they hide that info, they don't get the right to tell members they are "careful" with all donations.

[Janet Easson Martin]

Linda,

Really important point-

Janet

[Janet Easson Martin]

Huldah and Linda,

I was moved by your posts #13 & #14 above, about the 'rock and hard place' GCx leaders may feel they are in.  So, out of that compassion I felt God put something on my heart to write.  Putting it under the Healing Forum as a note today to the leaders of GCx.

Perhaps if we were "favored" men, we, too, would have been among them years ago.  I was definitely trying , but fortunately not "favored" or a male.  And by the GRACE of God, gone from the blinding deception.

Janet

[2xA Ron]

"Cash in your retirement, give it to us, God is your provider."

And yet, God apparently is not the church's provider, when it comes to church buildings.

That's true.  When I was there they had a huge fundraiser called "endowing generations" which was simply to improve the financial position of the church (pay off loans, bolster savings account, etc).  The church was very careful to make certain it was always provided for, but one of my small-group leaders probably got the same financial advice they gave araignee19:

"take out more student loans so you can live in the dorms, buy people coffee, and go on retreats. And don't count how much you spend on church activities, because to budget or track things would not be trusting God."

He wound up with massive debt and not enough money (even with his family's support) to finish his college education.  He had to leave and move back in with his folks (which thankfully took him out of the GCx).  The church expects members to tempt (rather than trust) God with their giving, while themselves manipulating finances so they don't have to trust Him at all. 

[Linda]

Very sad.

Keep in mind, they can also vote themselves raises and benefits any time they want. Giving away your retirement or savings is a different deal when you have a board chosen, in effect, by you deciding your compensation. A board that could offer you raises or benefits when requested.

They will tell you they have an "independent" financial board. I will tell you that the "independent" board is not chosen by the congregation, because no decision is ever made by the congregation. Therefore, every member of that "independent" financial board is hand picked by a pastor or board of pastors and can be "unpicked" by them if need be.

If the financial board is not chosen by and accountable to the congregation, there is no meaningful financial accountability.

[Huldah]

I'm no expert in the subject, but it seems to me that if GCC, GCM, & the individual churches are legitimate 501c3 organizations, they're required by law to make their last three years of tax returns available to the public on request. Has anyone here ever asked them for this information?

[Linda]

Churches do not have to make that information known. Christian non-profits have to, but not churches.

I read a quote recently that I thought was great. "Trust your mother, but cut the cards." All human beings are subject to temptation. Even moms! It helps keep them honest if they know the deck will be cut. It's not insulting to ask leaders to prove they are accountable financially by making the books open. It shows that you care enough about them to help them stay honest.

[araignee19]

Here is the new Loveland church (Beggar's Gate):

http://www.beggarsgate.com/index.html

I find it interesting that nowhere on this website do they state that they are associated with GC or Summitview. The only way to tell is the message section (featuring Pat Sokoll and Mitch Majeski), and the Facebook page, which talks about Faithwalkers and the To Have and To Hold conference (https://www.facebook.com/beggarsgate?ref=stream).

This whole website is without any reference to GC, and all GC terminology I'm familiar with is absent or different (e.g. "community groups" instead of "discipleship teams"). Deceitful if you ask me.

[araignee19]

Just to be fair, I just realized the old website links to Beggar's Gate as well:

http://www.summitviewcc.com/

[arthur]

I'm no expert in the subject, but it seems to me that if GCC, GCM, & the individual churches are legitimate 501c3 organizations, they're required by law to make their last three years of tax returns available to the public on request. Has anyone here ever asked them for this information?

I've never seen the returns of our church. However, I did have occasion to look at the budged, and I found it disturbing.

A while back the church was running in the red, and the pastor had not received any pay. One of the deacons stepped up in front of the congregation and lectured us on how wrong it was for us to ask a pastor to serve without being paid.  I remember feeling indignant at receiving this lecture on a Sunday morning, but I also felt like I should look into it. So I asked for a copy of the budget.

Yes, it was true that the pastor was not being paid. It was also true that much money had been sent to the national organization, to missions, and spent in other places that were somewhat wasteful. I was shocked at how poorly the money given to the church was being spent. They were asking for money for the pastors because the pastors had endorsed paying for these things "trusting that God would provide."

I was also shocked by how much our relatively inexperienced pastors were being paid. There are very good resources online, and our pastors with a few years of experience were being paid at a scale of a very senior pastor with a lifetime of experience.

That I stopped feeling guilty about "tithing", and became a much better steward of the money that I worked so hard to earn. I realized that good intentions were not enough when giving. It was necessary to give the money to stewards who could and would be held accountable.

[Linda]

I was also shocked by how much our relatively inexperienced pastors were being paid. There are very good resources online, and our pastors with a few years of experience were being paid at a scale of a very senior pastor with a lifetime of experience

.

Just to clarify, you were able to see the salary information of the pastors when you requested it? Also, could you tell how much was sent to GC headquarters? Did it appear to be a tithe of donations or was it a flat monthly amount? Just curious?

[Huldah]

I did some searching, and found the quarterly financial statements of Linworth Road Church on their website. (Linworth Road was formerly known as Solid Rock, back when I attended it.)


First off, kudos to them for making this information publicly available.

Their annual report for the '11-'12 fiscal year is here: http://storage.cloversites.com/linworthroadchurch/documents/Annual%20Report%2011-12.pdf. Financial summary starts on page 8.

First quarter report for the '12-'13 fiscal year is here: http://storage.cloversites.com/linworthroadchurch/documents/quarterly%20report.pdf. This report lists a monthly average of approximately $24K for combined pastor salaries, benefits, & parsonage. (That's more than some small-church pastors earn in a year.) Since there are only three individuals listed as "pastor" on the website, this averages out to about $8k in salary & benefits per pastor, per month, during the last three months of 2012.

Not too shabby, by any means.

Of course, the website information may not be complete, and I may have made some wrong assumptions. But it seems like pastors at Linworth Road are extremely well compensated, especially considering that 1) they live off the donations of parishioners who probably aren't wealthy, and 2) none of them appears to have a degree higher than a BS.

If I am wrong about any of this, I welcome corrections from knowledgeable individuals.

[Linda]

I respect them for putting out a statement that separates the pastor's salaries from the other salaries. It looks like the pastors average a little under $100,000 in salary and benefits. I see why everyone wants to be on the "pastor track"! I still say, there should be a breakdown and everyone should know what each pastor makes. Every other church I've ever attended has done that. Baptist. Presbyterian. Alliance. Covenant. Also, in all those churches, the members vote to approve the salary.

I think at one point, our GC church had a number of people on staff listed as "independent contractors" so they did not have to pay the matching FICA/Medicare. I remember this because one guy was on staff as a music person and got "recognized" as a pastor. In a sermon, he mentioned that he didn't know about paying the FICA and matching FICA and was stuck with a huge tax bill.

Another thing to keep in mind is that pastors don't have to pay taxes on the "housing" portion of their compensation which, in terms of net payment, after their deductions, could easily put these people in the "pay no taxes" category. It's a little break the IRS gives clergy.

When we attended a GC church, they did a similar financial statement, but lumped together all the salaries and benefits. There was an asterisk and the note at the bottom gave the total number of employees, full and part time, that it covered. I think I determined the average compensation was around $70,000 and considering that some of those were part time, and I knew many were not making that, I figured some had to be near the $100,000 mark to get the average that high. I haven't seen a report since. If I attended, before I gave a penny, I would ask to see one.

[EverAStudent]

In the mainline denominations churches of 500 or more people it can be generally assumed that the senior pastor will make a salary of $100,000 if he has a Master of Divinity and up to $150,000 if he has a doctorate.  Benefits, such as health insurance, transportation, housing, and communications are not usually considered a part of salary. 

The irony is that smaller and independent churches often pay their pastors starvation wages (if anything) and offer no benefits.  So a pastor of an independent Baptist church of 50 people may be getting $10,000 annual salary or less while also working on the side.

IMHO: Under NO circumstances in this age should a church leader who lacks the self-discipline to obtain an M.Div. or a doctorate ever be paid a salary, much less a salary equivalent to those who have degrees.  IMHO.  Higher theological education demonstrates a sincere interest of and love for God's Word and I would never want a pastor who does not have that kind of a heart.

[Linda]

You are correct. The idea that all pastors are underpaid is a thing of the past. It is not uncommon for pastors to pull in $100K in salary/housing for congregations of fewer than 500. My issue isn't so much with what they are paid, but with the concept of the congregation not knowing what that amount is. If the congregation knows the background and qualifications of a pastor and chooses to pay him the big bucks, I have no problem with it.

What I do have a problem with is the congregation being clueless about large sums of money flowing to the pastor (in terms of salary, housing, benefits, weeks off, expense accounts, travel, iPads, iPhones, etc.) while leaving the congregation with the idea that all pastors are underpaid. It is even more troubling when the pastor is the person who appoints the "independent" board of trustees who come up with this number.

If the congregation does not know the amount of money flowing to the pastor, there is no meaningful accountability.

Minor point, I know some people with MDivs from "conservative" seminaries who are clueless and would not want them for a pastor. Degrees are becoming less meaningful.

[EverAStudent]

Minor point, I know some people with MDivs from "conservative" seminaries who are clueless and would not want them for a pastor. Degrees are becoming less meaningful.

Higher degrees do not qualify a man to be a good pastor or even a biblical exegete.  A lack of degree indicates (to me) that a man is not yet serious enough to be qualified to be a pastor at all.

This is like a drivers license.  Having a license does not qualify one as a good driver.  A lack of a drivers license means that the person is not yet serious enough to be qualified to be a driver at all.  

Because few churches (if any at all) fully train men to become ready to be pastors (what church has intense disciplined programs to teach hermeneutics?) no man is truly "trained" sufficiently to be a pastor without a higher theological degree.  Higher theological degrees are (to me) the minimum starting point, the first step, on the longer path to becoming a sound pastor.

[arthur]

I was also shocked by how much our relatively inexperienced pastors were being paid. There are very good resources online, and our pastors with a few years of experience were being paid at a scale of a very senior pastor with a lifetime of experience

.

Just to clarify, you were able to see the salary information of the pastors when you requested it? Also, could you tell how much was sent to GC headquarters? Did it appear to be a tithe of donations or was it a flat monthly amount? Just curious?

What I recieved was a statement of expenses and a budget for the year to come. There was a line item for the pastor, and for the GCx headquarters. It looked like a percentage was being sent back to GCx.

[Linda]

A lack of degree indicates (to me) that a man is not yet serious enough to be qualified to be a pastor at all.

Perhaps. There might be other valid reasons.

Because few churches (if any at all) fully train men to become ready to be pastors (what church has intense disciplined programs to teach hermeneutics?) no man is truly "trained" sufficiently to be a pastor without a higher theological degree. Higher theological degrees are (to me) the minimum starting point, the first step, on the longer path to becoming a sound pastor

Hmmmm. Gonna disagree with you on this one. Maybe a degree will help with "soundness", maybe not. Could go either way.

But, now this thread has morphed from What happened to Summitview Loveland and Where is Rick Whitney! Anyone know the answers to those questions?