what are the healthier limits to pastoral authority?

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[graceforall]

Trying to figure out for myself that the limits of pastoral authority should be. 

pastors do have some authority...

but it wasn't ever supposed to be do what the pastor says because they are the pastor...

As an ex-GCxer, who saw some crazy stuff there - I find myself really struggling to figure this out now.  What is the right balance?

How do you all figure this out?  I am doing much reading, thinking, praying. 

If a pastor asks me to do something I don't want to do, under what cirumstances would I differ to his "authority" anyhow?    hmm...

[Linda]

First question. What makes a "legitimate" pastor? How do you define that?

[AgathaL'Orange]

I think of pastors as a teacher and a counselor and a friend.  If a teacher, counselor or friend could ask me to do something I would.  Beyond that, I think it's probably overstepping bounds.  I can't think of examples where a pastor might tell me to do something I wouldn't want to do...

Maybe if I wanted to ask for donations at church for a charity and the pastor asked me not to do it?  I would stop doing it... that's just being polite.

Maybe if the pastor asked me to unlock the church for the plumber while he was on vacation?  I would do that, that's just being a friend.

Maybe if the pastor said I should try to come to church more often and to build a pattern of prayer?  I would see that he's saying something good for me, something I want to do and think is right and I would try to do that... in that case he's a friend and counselor.

If I ask the pastor a question about teaching and he says this is the way it's taught and believed in this church, I would think about it and see if I believe it too.  If I disagreed, I would be honest and tell him.  That's discussing things with a teacher.

I just can't even imagine a time when  pastor would need to tell me something to do I don't want to do.  In our church we have an elected council.  The priest is a member of the council.  He gets one vote.  And I should mention those meetings are quite loud and vocal! 

[graceforall]

When we met both the female and male pastor were there.   The guy did most of the talking.
I'm darn sure it's none of his freaking bussiness what my diagnois is or the specifics of how much treatment and what for. 

I asked why he was asking this, especially without first asking abot what happened. Apparently he talked with the other person and um, well he wanted to know if my freaking out and not wanting to be around her one on one was due to a mental illness.  (WTF?)  um, no, friends are not supposed to diagnose friends and tell others of thwe suspected diagnosis  period.  not ok.   I freaked out and honestly, I said I needed a break this was not ok wtih me - and then all the old weird GCx church leaders being so demanding was stirred up.   I just stopped and said i Needed to leave.  I could barely even speak.   He shared I needed intensive therapy.  yeah, thanks for the input.  Sure I have issues... but I don't need to have more because of more crap with pastors being pushy.   At that point, I honestly was crying and a mess.  I really couldn't even spit out words.  I don't know why it hurt so much - it just did.  I trusted them to some degree.  I was so upset even lied to the pastor to get out of the meeting.  Yeah, I know, bad.  I faked a phone call to just get out of there without talking any more.  I just needed to get out...   

I don't know if I will have anything to do with this church or not.   It's been awhile and they have expressed that they were wrong, want to reconcile, ecterta.  I just don't know.  The rest of my experience with them has been nothing like this.  Not perfect, but generally a pretty healthy church so this threw me off.   I want to tell them the specifcs of my counseling is none of their f... bussiness and will never be and that has to be absolutely clear if we are to have any relationship.  (Sorry.  I don't normally swear but when I think of this, I just want to scream.)    They want to meet.  I'm leary they will ask of counseling again.         
The whole matter has stirred up the issue of pastoral authority.   Even if I have nothing to do with them, I dunno where I land on that. 
I'm trying to think through it and "play devil's advocate" (bad words) and try to think of when t
his kind of thing could be appropriate?    any?

[AgathaL'Orange]

From what I have seen, the church has a strange view on mental illness.  I don't know how widespread it is.  I do know that depression was a sin in their eyes... at least in sermons that were taught.  Mental illness was spoken of as demonic or a consequence of sin.  There was an archaic view that they had gleaned from the Bible.  I think it's fair to say the Bible is not a medical textbook and doesn't speak to our modern understanding of things like autism, schizophrenia, clinical depression, bipolar syndrome, ADHD, brain injury, or eating disorders.
Pastors wielding power over people by making them ask permission to see a therapist (my experience actually for depression and grief counseling) or by demanding private information from psychiatric/psychology appts is not okay.  I think being open with a therapist in talk therapy could be helpful in sorting the truth from the perceptions and what to do about further treatment.

Good luck on your journey to wellness and clear thinking.   It's not easy sometimes!!

[Linda]

Oddly, the sense I had at my GC church was that counseling was okay--just based on things said in sermons. Also, I vaguely remember references to helpful prescription drugs being acceptable. The reference I remember was that it was the equivalent of "throwing someone who is drowning a life jacket" rather than to try to teach them how to swim from your position on the dock.

One other thing that seemed so odd to me was that many of the leader's wives had fibromyalgia off and on that sometimes was quite severe and the percentage of women suffering from this was much higher in my church than among my friends in general. Don't know what to make of that.

Also, graceforall, your church had a female pastor?

[EverAStudent]

The first several posts made me cringe!!!!  Pastors have NO authority to tell you to do chores and tasks!!!!!

Their authority lies in their ability to teach the Word of God.  They can persuade you to follow God's Word, but nothing beyond that.  The Twelve (the acting pastors) did not pick the deacons in Jerusalem, the conregation did that.  Apollos did not obey Paul when he did not want to travel to Corinth. 

Pastors have no "management" authority or "slave master" authority.  They preach and teach and teach others by example how to labor for God.  They cannot tell you which ministry to join, which classes to attend, who to marry, etc.  They can tell you the meaning of Scripture and point out sins in your life.

What is a pastor's authority limit?  To preach and teach the Word of God and to call you to obey the Word (not to call you to obey their whims).

[AgathaL'Orange]

I totally agree with you EAS.  I think someone can ask you in the same way they might ask a friend, neighbor, or family member, but to require or assume is breaking boundaries, in my opinion.

I know GC isn't alone in this, that there are other churches that rely on unpaid volunteerism to run the building maintenance.  We found though the requirements at GC were absolutely off the charts.  Each small group would get a month of the year to clean the entire church (maybe more... can't remember now) and every Saturday of that month you would have to go clean everything.  It was so aggravating in that at the time I could barely keep my own house clean, my child required lots of therapy and attention, my husband was putting in his full 40 plus overtime at work, and we were leading and participating in at least 4 other church groups ... wait 5... that required extra meetings, activities, and lesson planning throughout the week.  I'm not including women's, men's, and couples retreats either which were viewed as "must attends".  It was ridiculous.  I didn't want to spend our one day of rest together as a family cleaning the church.  I'm sure that makes me "not a servant", but it was just too much at the time and would be today for us even more.  I mean the other people had lots of kids too, so it's not like they had any more time.

I didn't want to do it, but I never said anything and just showed up and did it.  But it did make me sad so see our small group, some of whom had night shifts and small nursing children and college to boot getting up and cleaning the church when they honestly needed someone to help them out.  Very frustrating and while we should have a servant's heart, using your church members as slave labor is totally different in my opinion.  Just completely wrong.

[AgathaL'Orange]

In other churches usually people sign up for the the "cleaning committee".  In GC it was assigned and you would be leaving all your friends to do the work if you turned it down.  And who wants to be THAT person!!

[G_Prince]

I didn't want to do it, but I never said anything and just showed up and did it.  But it did make me sad so see our small group, some of whom had night shifts and small nursing children and college to boot getting up and cleaning the church when they honestly needed someone to help them out.  Very frustrating and while we should have a servant's heart, using your church members as slave labor is totally different in my opinion.  Just completely wrong.

This is just it. All the energy in GCx is focused on promoting the orgainization rather than helping actual church members. It is "church" focused rather than comunity focused. Nobody is really looking out for each other...the organization is number one. Maybe that is why most of my friendships in GCx seemed so shallow. We didn't really care about each other, instead we had a common "church first" goal.  Very unlike the early church were everyone gave what they had to help the poor, the widows and the orphans. in GCx everyone gives what they have to the church to get a snazzier building or pay for flashy marketing.

[Linda]

Very interesting insight, G_Prince and Agatha.