What do you say to those still in GC* church who...

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.

[graceforall]

... are beginning to question and say that they think XYZ teaching might be wrong?

I have friends still in GC* churches.  Well, I use the term friend pretty loosely.  Some are more acquaintances, some are more of friends - all of whom live back in the old town I did, which somewhat naturally means we are not as close of friends as we used to be.  When I first left GC*, I cut off ties with most GCMers, but recently have reconnected over the past year.  No one has even asked why I left.   One was weird about it, and sent me a funny email saying they forgave me for leaving them - ok... i didn't even know i needed to be forgiven... and don't think i was wrong to leave... and no, that one former friend I didn’t connect with again.  That was just too weird.  

I do think I should have handled leaving differently, but I don’t think it was wrong to leave – it was the best thing!  When I left, I did approach the leadership, and some of my closest friends.  Or I thought they were (and yeah, there was a mix of real friends and friends with whom I had just been someone to disciple and be a leader over… and I found out the difference the hard way.)

None of those who I approached back then AND are STILL with GC* LEADERSHIP now, are friends of mine.  A few I have limited contact with – but they are not friends.  Distant acquaintances.  Most leaders would not even return a phone call.  Some ex-leaders did.  

And yeah, I was connected to some of the highest up leaders in Colorado and nationally.  It kind of freaks me out now.  Back then, I saw how Dennis Clark and Herschel Martindale and Rick Witney and Mark Darling and Tom Short  (and…ok the list goes on and on)  I saw what they taught and how they LIVED their lives.  I was never high up in leadership myself, but had friends who were who would spend considerable time with other leaders who were national or very high up (whatever that means) and well known, publically, but I would go along with my friends to dinner or gatherings and these people’s homes or places where they were staying (if they were traveling to speak) see their lives behind closed doors…  a lot…  and it always seemed at the very least, weird.  Most of it just seemed like “well, if that works for them… but that’s not what God is calling me too…”  but some of it was red flags… like about raising kids or marriage… and then I began to see that they didn’t preach the same things that they would tell other leaders, or people they were “discipiling” and I didn’t stay much longer after that.   It got worse between deciding to leave and actually leaving…  sickeningly worse…  

It's been utterly confusing now to connect with people who have been discipled by these people, and/or are GCM small group leaders, and/or just still apart of GCM.  
None of what they say and do makes me want to go back at all.  I find myself actually very thankful I left.  They have gone down a very different spiritual path than I have.  We are all Christians - on the surface - and I believe many of them love God very dearly.  Ironically, it's been healing to reconnect, perhaps only briefly.  It's helped me have peace that no, the path they have followed by getting deeper involved with GCM, or staying at all, is not and was never the path for me.    

And a couple of friends have expressed...  gosh... well, at small group/church/XYZ meeting, they were discussing this and I am beginning to think that doesn't seem quite right....  

I have not engaged any of them on that.  I have to admit, I have stayed silent.  They usually have expressed these kinds of things with others around, and with assurance that oh, they are not saying the leaders are wrong, but that *they* (my friends themselves)are wrong - like maybe they misunderstand the teaching or they are not sure how to carry it out or they think maybe there is a different way that fits them better…. But they are not saying the pastor or teacher or leader or church is wrong or to blame…  sigh.  The old never-question-leaders-mindset still exists so strongly.  


Now, I have a friend who publically wrote (I won’t say where) that what the church taught about marriage and told them personally about marriage isn’t the path for them and was hurtful in their walk with God.  They also say they do not blame the GCM church….  hmmmm…..
…and then I got lost in what they wrote.  

I almost replied saying “um, maybe you should blame the church a little or hold it a little responsible for teaching you stuff that isn’t right.  That’s what they want you to do anyhow, do they not?  (Follow the pastor because they will be held accountable is one matra the church said then and still says now)  You are not the only one who has been hurt by things like this (and what they wrote fits the pattern for much of what I have read on here) and  then included a link to this forum.”
I didn’t reply, partly because I remembered that they went to Faithwalkers.   They are involved in leading a small group.   And I’d like to scream.  

Another leaders saying hmm, people have said this to me and it doesn’t seem right and hurt me and hindered my walk with God and now I see it different and something else fits me better and is what God told me to do, not what these leaders told me to do – AND IT IS A LEADER still withinthe hurch.  They have enough insight to see it’s wrong and enough courage to post it publically and are still defending the church and still saying it’s wrong and then they go into talking about how the “evangelical church” as a whole has it wrong, AS IF what they say the GCM church teaches that is wrong is something the evangelical church teaches in general (and it is not!)   And I’m honestly tempted to respond in all caps – PLEASE BLAME THE GCM CHURCH, NOT ALL OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY.   THIS IS NOT MAINSTREAM OR NORMAL OR COMMON TEACHING ABOUT MARRIAGE.  
And the fact that I could just pretty much scream in written words to him, is why I have not responded at all…

Not yet…


I need to ask – how would you all respond?

[graceforall]

This is what this person from GCM wrote, posted ”publically” (at least somewhat) as a facebook note.  I may not leave this up - I’m not sure it’s right for me to post it here... like I am invading their privacy or something – however, they are a leader in a church and posted it for many to see.  The only thing I took out was their name, and the name of the specific GCM church they are reffering to. 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In a conversation during our leader's meeting last night, the subject of marriage came up. I don't even remember how, but I do remember my response.  Back in the old days of (GCM church*), marriage was a seemingly forbidden topic.  If I mentioned that I wanted to be married someday, it was quickly met with, "What if you're one of those men who's never supposed to get married?" Now, I understand the intent, not to allow the desire for marriage or relationship to become an idol, but something else happened. Somehow that message twisted.

Please understand, too, I'm not blaming (GCM church). I'm the one who got things twisted.

One thing that was mentioned in that conversation last night was how much modern Christendom can condemn the desire for marriage as selfish and wrong. That is exactly what had happened in my case. How many men view the desire to be married as wrong and try to purge it in an attempt to gain Godliness with contentment? Guess what guys, it doesn't work. You're wired that way, and unless it really is God's intent for you to not be married, that desire is only going to get stronger.

The funny thing is that only a few hours earlier I had been conversing with a pastor about that very thing. How twisted this was in my own head/heart and how it deeply effected my whole worldview and confused me on God. God wants us to delight in him and not hope in our desires, but Psalm 37:4 says pretty plainly, "Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart." God doesn't want us to purge our desires, especially the ones he wired us with, he just wants us to desire and pursue him first and then allow him to be the provider and fulfiller of our other longings.

The twisting of this whole idea deeply effected how I saw myself and caused a tremendous amount of pain and sorrow in my heart. It's funny, the Buddhists believe that desire is the source of pain and to live a right life, one's life must be purged of all desire (then one will attain enlightenment). Yet, as I attempted to purge the desire, it only grew stronger and I hurt all the more (Which just goes to show why I'm not a Buddhist). God's intent is for us to enjoy having our longings fulfilled by him. This morning, he showed me that by giving me Proverbs 5:18-19:

May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
A loving doe, a graceful deer
— may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be intoxicated with her love.

God designed marriage not just for a place for procreating the human race, not just to be a picture of unity, but for a place of deep blessing and enjoyment. I mean, just look at the wording in this passage: blessed, rejoice, satisfy, be intoxicated. And what are these words describing? Not his relationship with God, but with his wife! The desire for marriage is not wrong, but GOOD! The desire for marriage is Godly! We think that all of our relational needs and desires must be filled by God only, but we forget that God designed us for community, fellowship and union with each other. If God designed us for those things with one another, then we can be free to enjoy our relationships, especially with our spouse. After all, it is God who said through Solomon that a man who finds a wife finds a good thing and receives favor from the Lord. FAVOR FROM THE LORD!

So why the heck am I writing this? It's not because I'm going to go get all engaged tomorrow, so don't think that. Really, it's because I don't believe that I'm the only one with this view of needing to purge desire to gain contentment. Submit desires to God, trust him like a child trusts its parents and start taking this seriously. I know I am.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From graceforall:

*the GCM church 5-6 years ago, when the writer and current leader and myself were involved in this GCM church.  And no it as not forbidden topic, but different viewpoints about singleness, dating, and marriage were basically taboo.  The line about being single was said a lot.  It was better to be single, better to be out of college, better to marry without dating – always preached one way and then among leaders and in disciplining relationships talked about differently - and all other ideas were not really how to give your life to the Lord in full.... :/ 



a few more thoughts (sorry to ramble on but this triggered something for me)

Sigh.  He like starts to question what the church has been teaching, admits it has hurt... but thinks it is just his own twisted view of what modern christiandom (which I take to mean all of the church as a whole) teaches and somehow it all ends up in a place that somehow seems somewhat ok... but in the midst of the kind of church they are in... it’s actually all the more twisted.  Partly because he white washes the church’s responsibility, and his pain, and thinks what they teach is common, and it’s not... not to the degree they do and to the degree that even this LEADER says it is basically a forbidden topic. 

 If I had no experience with this church and GCM in general, I’d probably not have much reaction to this at all – at least to not much of what this person wrote except for how they say the “subject” of marriage being :”forbidden (why would a leader have any impression that was forbidden as a topic at any church and think that was not of concern or error by the church...

If I had no history with this church and GCM, I’d likely say the response he says he got about being single could has possibly been in the context of him trying to grapple with singleness.    But the fact that I know how weird and off the wall their teachings are, this comment actually seems like one of the less hurtful things that was and is commonly said in that church. 

History or not, this persons assumption of what all of ”Christiandom” teaches seems like it just comes from someone who has not been to many other Churches (and this person hasn’t) and is just responding to what they figure is a general idea in chirtsianity.  But because I know the history and what GCM and this church teach in full about marriage and how off the wall the full picture is, this is deeply concerning that this person thinks the way this church teaches about marriage is common. 

I have been to a number of churches before and after this GCM church and being involved with GCM.  I have never run into another church or Christian who teaches the same things GCM teaches their LEADERS (from the GCM pulpit – or stage - it’s a different story).  I’ve never even run into a Christian who thinks the desire for marriage is as a default, sinful.  I have a friend who is a catholic priest.  They choose to not marry not because marriage is sinful...  or the desires are sinful by default...  Yes, I do know other churches teach the same things GCM does teach about marriage and singleness – but it’s not common teachings.  The fact it is not common doesn’t mean GCM is wrong.  GCM is wrong for a lot of reasons, but that is not the measure by which to judge a teaching is wrong or not.   What I am trying to point out is that this leader thinks what GCM teaches is common in evangelical Christianity...

And this person who wrote this, went to Faithwalkers, leads in the church.... 

What would you say to this person?  Anything? 

And btw, am I wrong for posting their facebook note on here too?   

Do you agree or disagree with my reaction to what this person wrote? 

Do you agree or disagree with what they wrote?   

Any thoughts/feedback/reactions would be much appreciated. 

[graceforall]

btw, someone outside of the church responded, by asking the GCm writer of the above note on facebook, if this is what has been borthing them for awhile. 

the GCM leader writes (word for word - copied and pasted exactly)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Well, what was bothering me wasn't that I wasn't enjoying life, rather that my underlying thought processes didn't line up with my world view. A house on a bad foundation cracks and sinks and one of the foundational tenents of my world vie...w needed to be repaired, namely that God is good and he is a provider of good things and not one to dangle the carrot in front of us and yank it out.

I like how John Piper describes the Christian life as Christian Hedonism. Seeing and savoring the risen Christ which includes an understanding that a great part of that is fully enjoying and loving that which he gives and provides. But the central point of my life is not to honor creation, but the creator and to enjoy that which he has created within the boundaries that he prescribed.

I know that you and I have very different views of life, reality, God, gods, and many things. As far as what I'm looking for, I've found it. My perspective was just out of focus. Now, I'm seeing much more clearly, and what do you know? Joy!

[Free to live]

Sometimes people in GC churches want to stay there. Your friend that posted all this seems to have committed to this particular church for life (he has mentioned a couple of times on his blog that he did this). Sometimes that commitment can be stronger than things they may not agree with (in this case, their view on marriage). When that happens, they tend to blame themselves for getting it twisted up and not the church for teaching a twisted view. They would rather take the hit because that means they don't have to break their commitment to the church. I've been in a similar position, blaming myself for having a wrong view of something and not laying any responsibility on the church because I didn't want to admit that the teaching originated from there. I knew if I admitted that, it meant that this church wasn't all I thought it was and I might not want to be as committed to the church as I was and I didn't want that to happen. So I blamed myself and let myself think I was more messed up than I was.

[graceforall]

I didn't even realize he had a blog.  In that case - here's the link so people can read for themselves.
http://psalm63one.blogspot.com/

It does make sense about needing to deflect the responsibility for what the Rock teaches to the church as a whole if he has committed to the church for life.  Otherwise he would have to say it is wrong, and in GCM, saying even a part of what they teach isn't right, would be disloyal...

I have never seen it deflected as a problem in all a Christianity that something GCM teaches being wrong is something all of Christainity must be teaching wrong...  or maybe I have seen it before and just missed it...   

You are right, they stay because they do want to stay.  I wanted to stay.  I thought I would have stayed for my life.  I didn't make any formal commitment, like many have, but I never planned to leave either.  I stayed even when I thought they were wrong on some things.  There are no two christians who will agree on everything...  But with the GCM church, it finally became too many things to follow at all, and too many things that seemed downright dangerously off mark...