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Author Topic: What if MD is found to NOT be....  (Read 151657 times)
jeromydaviddarling
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« Reply #100 on: March 26, 2018, 10:23:53 am »

No, not mocking. Just didn't phrase the question very well the first time so I modified my post. If you don't mind taking a look at the revised post, maybe it will make more sense. Sorry for the confusion.

"My dad never met with women in the basement under any circumstances, not even when there was someone else present in the home." He sat upstairs in the living room, with my mother by his side.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #101 on: March 26, 2018, 10:26:39 am »

Are you saying your dad never met with women alone (at home, in the basement, or anywhere else) or called them for counseling or received their calls for counseling or just general pastoral care/witnessing/etc?

Edit:  I realize this sounded aggressive, so try to imagine I'm saying this in a nice, non-aggressive way!    Smiley  I just wanted to get your take on it.

I appreciate you gently clarifying. I've already answered this (as have all my siblings) so let me do it one last time for the record:

Are you saying your dad never met with women alone (at home, in the basement, or anywhere else)
YES YES YES YES. A THOUSAND TIMES YES.

or called them for counseling or received their calls for counseling or just general pastoral care/witnessing/etc?
Every single pastor on the face of the earth (including John Van Dyck) has talked to a woman on the phone as part of counseling in the 20th and 21st century. My dad got calls at all hours of the night from men and women in the throws of despair and took them when he could. No pastor in his right mind would refuse counsel to half the human race just to avoid being accused of something (but believe me, after these kinds of false accusations you better believe many are considering that exact thing). If the implication here is that a pastor should be babysat during every phone call with a woman, I think that's an insult to woman in general, much more than it is to a pastor.


Thank you for responding! 
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #102 on: March 26, 2018, 10:27:35 am »

No, not mocking. Just didn't phrase the question very well the first time so I modified my post. If you don't mind taking a look at the revised post, maybe it will make more sense. Sorry for the confusion.

"My dad never met with women in the basement under any circumstances, not even when there was someone else present in the home." He sat upstairs in the living room, with my mother by his side.

Thanks, Jeromy.  I appreciate the specific responses to questions.   Smiley
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Huldah
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« Reply #103 on: March 26, 2018, 10:28:00 am »

Thanks for clarifying, Jeromy.
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Seekingtruth
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« Reply #104 on: March 26, 2018, 10:34:12 am »

"My dad never met with women in the basement under any circumstances, not even when there was someone else present in the home. He sat upstairs in the living room, with my mother by his side.”

I’m sorry Jeromy but that’s a lie. Listen to the first 6 min of this message recorded in 1989 taken from strong deciple.com. Right around the 5min mark.. “We (another women) went downstairs.”

http://strongdisciple.com/wp-content/uploads/Playing-By-the-Rules-A-Commitment-to-Our-God-Given-Roles-and-Responsibilities.mp3
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 10:39:00 am by Seekingtruth » Logged
jeromydaviddarling
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« Reply #105 on: March 26, 2018, 10:47:27 am »

"My dad never met with women in the basement under any circumstances, not even when there was someone else present in the home. He sat upstairs in the living room, with my mother by his side.”

I’m sorry Jeromy but that’s a lie. Listen to the first 6 min of this message recorded in 1989 taken from strong deciple.com. Right around the 5min mark.. “We (another women) went downstairs.”

http://strongdisciple.com/wp-content/uploads/Playing-By-the-Rules-A-Commitment-to-Our-God-Given-Roles-and-Responsibilities.mp3

Holy smoke, you know his sermons so well that you could pull up a message from 20+ years ago and reference the exact minute mark where he mentioned that he walked into the basement with another woman, then creeped just long enough on a thread you're not apart of, just to insert that in? Have you been rigorously going through every one of his messages looking for a nugget like that?

I'll play along: did he say "we went downstairs alone and closed the door?" Just because at some point they went downstairs does not imply the kids weren't up and down and in and out (ALL THE TOYS WERE IN THE BASEMENT). And by the way, this is when my mother was breastfeeding Micah, who was newly born. So YES, when my mother was breastfeeding, she wasn't sitting by my father's side. I never said that he was never for even one single second in the basement without another human present. I think that's pretty clear. But I do know the woman he was talking about if that helps. I would encourage everyone to listen to this message and see how kind my father was to a troubled woman and how excited he was to show off his wife and kids, how much we have been apart of his ministry and how welcoming my parents were even with a newborn baby in the house. This is a wonderful message and I'm glad it's now posted on this site.
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Seekingtruth
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« Reply #106 on: March 26, 2018, 11:01:02 am »

“My dad never met with another women In the basements under any circumstances.”

I’m simply responding to this quote with audio support showing that your quote contradicts what your father himself said in the audio message.. It doesn’t prove anything and that’s not my goal here I’m not taking a position on either side. You made a absolute statement that said “under any circumstances.” To which I responded with audio evidence showing a contradiction how that quote wasn’t true, that’s all.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:07:29 pm by Seekingtruth » Logged
Shamednomore
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« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2018, 11:15:58 am »

"My dad never met with women in the basement under any circumstances, not even when there was someone else present in the home. He sat upstairs in the living room, with my mother by his side.”

I’m sorry Jeromy but that’s a lie. Listen to the first 6 min of this message recorded in 1989 taken from strong deciple.com. Right around the 5min mark.. “We (another women) went downstairs.”

http://strongdisciple.com/wp-content/uploads/Playing-By-the-Rules-A-Commitment-to-Our-God-Given-Roles-and-Responsibilities.mp3

Holy smoke, you know his sermons so well that you could pull up a message from 20+ years ago and reference the exact minute mark where he mentioned that he walked into the basement with another woman, then creeped just long enough on a thread you're not apart of, just to insert that in? Have you been rigorously going through every one of his messages looking for a nugget like that?

I'll play along: did he say "we went downstairs alone and closed the door?" Just because at some point they went downstairs does not imply the kids weren't up and down and in and out (ALL THE TOYS WERE IN THE BASEMENT). And by the way, this is when my mother was breastfeeding Micah, who was newly born. So YES, when my mother was breastfeeding, she wasn't sitting by my father's side. I never said that he was never for even one single second in the basement without another human present. I think that's pretty clear. But I do know the woman he was talking about if that helps. I would encourage everyone to listen to this message and see how kind my father was to a troubled woman and how excited he was to show off his wife and kids, how much we have been apart of his ministry and how welcoming my parents were even with a newborn baby in the house. This is a wonderful message and I'm glad it's now posted on this site.

Except that you actually DID say he was never in the basement alone with a woman.  It doesn't prove anything, other than that you are making statements that you want everyone to take as absolute truth when in fact there is gray area. 
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Huldah
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« Reply #108 on: March 26, 2018, 11:35:26 am »

When you listen to the tape, it's pretty clear that Mark and the woman went downstairs for their counseling session.

Jeromy, when you wrote that your dad had never counseled a woman downstairs, ever, my heart kind of sank. As much as I've clashed with you on this forum, I don't take any pleasure in the pain this situation is causing you.

When all the dust finally settles, however the final verdict plays out, there aren't going to be any winners, just different kinds and degrees of loss.
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jeromydaviddarling
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« Reply #109 on: March 26, 2018, 11:49:28 am »

You guys talk about our basement like you've been in the basement but you keep forgetting it was my bedroom. So if they had sat in the kitchen would it have bothered anyone? Upstairs in the living room? Out on the porch? I stand by what I said - my dad never counseled woman alone in the basement, I would know, because I lived there. We were always in the house, roaming throughout the house, playing in our rooms (mine being downstairs) - I LIVED IN THE HOUSE THIS ENTIRE TIME. Just because he said they went downstairs does not mean I wasn't there playing with my toys, or playing video games. Your minds are already filthy about my father's ministry so you're picturing what you want and ignoring all the context in that message about how hard my dad worked to be HOME, with his family, loving people and inviting them into our world, and you're ignoring the fact that someone literally responded to my response within a couple of minutes by posting the exact minute marker of a decades old message where he says "we went downstairs", which is hilariously, to date, the only evidence that's been produced showing my dad could have had a minute or two alone with a woman, in my bedroom.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #110 on: March 26, 2018, 12:35:04 pm »

Apparently that video cited above has now "vanished".  I could not access it at 3:30 ET. 

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Huldah
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« Reply #111 on: March 26, 2018, 12:41:59 pm »

Try the link again, Janet. It's still working for me.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #112 on: March 26, 2018, 01:09:47 pm »

I was able to access it just now. 

Try again?
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #113 on: March 26, 2018, 01:24:04 pm »

Thanks, still trying.

Might be because I'm on an iPad and need to add MP3 player.
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Neville Longbottom
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« Reply #114 on: March 26, 2018, 01:41:27 pm »

Jeromy, I am sorry for the pain this situation brings to you and your family. I am new to this forum and have only been reading since the allegations were made public in January. Your posts here are what drew me in.

I don't know you, but I am confident that I would not seek a friendship with you in real life given the way you have been treating people on this forum. You try to intimidate and silence those who have disagreed with you. The character that you display on this forum are not qualities in I would seek in a friend. Sadly, your quest to defend your father and mother is negatively impacting the work of the gospel when you call people "liars" and "false Christians". Name calling is not something I admire.

Finally, I think it would be helpful for you to never use absolute statements.  Wink You said that you stand by what you said regarding your father never being in the basement alone with women, but that audio states that you are incorrect so then you have to clarify the circumstances. 
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #115 on: March 26, 2018, 02:27:59 pm »

Thanks, still trying.

Might be because I'm on an iPad and need to add MP3 player.

Janet, if you still can't hear it, I just typed the passage out for you.  This of course is not insinating that he did anything "bad" that day, only to show that there was indeed a pattern of meeting for appointments at home, in the basement, without wife or kids in the room.  He specifically says she only met his wife for 30 seconds and that when she left she talked to the kids again.  So, it definitely supports some of the statements about that aspect.

**********

So this girl called me Saturday, day before Easter and, uh very very mis-trusting. She’s about 36, been divorced, been through unbelievable pain and difficulties in her life and she was calling me and so we talked a little bit and she said, “You know I feel better already.”  So she was gonna come, but she had to work Easter.


She came to my home today. We had an appointment. And she came over to my home, and she told me her story and what’s been happening in her life and I was able to share the Lord with her and share Christ with her and help give her hope, and gave her some tapes -- four tapes-- and she didn’t at that particular time come to know Christ.


But she was going for a job interview which is a very difficult thing for her. She’s been out of work and trying to find a job. She’s gone back to college, finished her degree.  It’s just been a very very hard road, and so I called her about 6 tonight just to see how her interview went.  


She couldn’t believe that I called and she said,  “Mark, I’ve already listened to three of the tapes three times in the car.  I just can’t believe the things you’re telling about on those tapes and the way they were touching my heart.”  She says, “That’s what I want, that’s what I’ve been missing in my life-- is God in my life.”  And she said, you know when she came, she came at one and my children of course were home and so my children--   I just sat down on purpose I didn’t go to the door because I wanted them to greet her at the door.  So she walks in. They’re standing there in a line and they say , “Hi (redacted)!  I told them what her name would be.


And she just kinda, “Wow you guys are beautiful!” You know and then I went up and introduced myself cause we never met before and we went downstairs.  Then we left-- when she left, she met Kathy for about 30 seconds, saw the baby, talked to the kids again, left, and when I was visiting with her on the phone, she said, “Mark I just can’t believe it.  That’s a family I’ve always dreamed of having in my life.”

***********

http://strongdisciple.com/marriage/playing-by-the-rules-a-commitment-to-our-god-given-roles-and-responsibilities


It's at that link at about four minutes in.  Thanks to whoever posted that link.  I don't know you.  (or do I?) But thanks. Apologies if I made typos!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 02:30:10 pm by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Seekingtruth
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« Reply #116 on: March 26, 2018, 03:30:21 pm »

Like I said before. I am not speculating nor did I come to any conclusions based on the message I posted, as that would be adding my own assumptions and opinions to a situation where I wasn’t and couldn’t know because I wasn’t there. Nor did I attack the character of Mr. Darling. Again, Jeromy used absolute exclusive language by saying “under no circumstances” did his father counsel women in the basement. What I said was this message from Mr. Darlings own voice contradicts Jeromys statement. I simply provided evidence to support a contradiction I noticed without adding any personal opinions.
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Mapleleaf
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« Reply #117 on: March 26, 2018, 03:51:12 pm »

Jeromy, you again state that you don't believe I'm a member of your church, but I find that odd as that pretends that of the many people at Evergreen's five locations, you know the heart of them all, and believe that all are aligned with your allegiance to your dad, and none could choose to believe the accounts being brought forward by these three women, and believe the statement that there could be others.  That seems odd to me that you believe that all 2,000 to 3,000 people at ECC (estimating, not sure of the exact # across five locations) would come to the same conclusion as you.
I may not know all of them, but I know about 100x more than you do, and they all know who I am. They know my work for the Gospel and my reputation, and the consensus from all the emails, phone calls, texts and facebook messages I've received since this all went down is that an overwhelming majority find this so disgustingly false, they've not even bothered paying attention to any of it.

Also, you accuse me of just being on here to stir the pot.  I would counter that I'm on here to provide a perspective of a member from within ECC that isn't aligned with what seems to be the an exclusive opinion of all the ECC people that are posting here, and I wanted to show that there is room for diversity of opinion from within our church.  If you still feel that is just stirring the pot, I'd counter with the fact that from my perspective, it doesn't seem that different from what you're doing here.
I came on here to take my dad OUT of the pot he's being boiled alive in. You came on here to echo what every regularly on this site already stated - "we believe everything Suzanne is saying and need no proof whatsoever". How in the world would it help ANYONE on this website to come on here, anonymously claim to be a current member of our church, then proceed to say you also believe everything a woman you've never met is posting on the internet? That's the very definition of stirring the pot and helps exactly no one.

First, I'll follow the starting premise, and ask What if Mark is found completely innocent, and that Scout made the whole thing up.  I'd assume there'd be some people on this forum licking woulds, but probably not much apologizing, as that seems to not be the tone of people on the forum on both sides.  But I will just speak for myself.  I will reach out to the Darling family and apologize for all that has happened to the family.  Furthermore, I'll do one better to respect Jeromy's concerns about people here with anonymity.  I will do it in person to Jeromy and any of the other siblings, which will give up my anonymous status (and also prove to him that I am a member of the church).
Let me get this straight: you come on here, anonymously, claiming to believe, UNEQUIVOCALLY, that my father is a liar, philanderer, and perverted sexual deviant and that my mother is an idiot or enables him, then turn around and tell me you'll apologize publicly if you're wrong? That's a little like saying "I know the sun will rise tomorrow, but if it doesn't I'll eat my shorts". This may be one of the most offensive things ever written to my family on this forum and is completely and utterly hollow.

Second one - What if the ECC Board returns with some form of discipline against Mark, maybe just a required leave of absense, or maybe something stronger.  How will the ECC "followers" that have been posting on this site respond.  Will they then need to attack the credibility and the anonymity of the ECC board?  Honestly, I'd like some thoughts on how we'd respond to that?
Here I can happily state that once the investigator reviews everything I already posted in my letter about the man I lived with for 21 years, there will be no discipline. Since you apparently skimmed over my letter, maybe you should go back and pick through it with a fine toothed comb.

Third and final - What happens if other women are willing to come forward.  What if Victim A or Victim C give up their anonymity?  What if other women come forward and give their accounts that are similar to the three that have been made.  How will the parties from within ECC that are believing in Mark's complete innocence respond to them?  Will they also attack aspects of those women's character, or bring forward things to try to convince others to question their credibility?  What if you know them personally?  Honestly, how do you believe you'll respond to them?  And for the record, if this path ever happens, and I do see parties from within my church try to attack these other women's character or credibility, I pledge here to also give up my anonymity, as I will stand personally between those women and any opposition they find.  I will stand for their right to speak.  I will stand against any who try to push them back down.
Since you're new here, you probably missed this: all 3 of these women claimed to have spent HOURS alone or on the phone with my dad over the exact same period of time (and often apparently in my bedroom or Micah's). Meaning my dad must have superpowers. 1 alone would have been caught by my mother within a few weeks. 3 is basically next to impossible and 7 women would have required him to never sleep (or even really ever be home for that matter). Since Suzanne's story completely fell apart (READ MY LETTER AGAIN) and these other victims are doing something NO OTHER #METOO VICTIM HAS DONE TO DATE by not posting their own stories about the "lurid conversations" they had with my dad, anyone that does NOT have a personal vendetta against my father has already checked out of this story - cause victims of REAL sex crimes have been bravely coming forward, publicly, with proof, to out their abuser. This whole time everyone's been talking about "power differential" - well who has the power now? A woman can scribble something on a bathroom wall and completely ruin a mans life. That's a power my father has NEVER known.

Wow, Jeromy, I struggle with words to fully explain your response.  If I had to go with one, I think "impressive" is probably the one.  I'll try to follow you point by point:

"I may not know all of them, but I know about 100x more than you do, and they all know who I am. They know my work for the Gospel and my reputation, and the consensus from all the emails, phone calls, texts and facebook messages I've received since this all went down is that an overwhelming majority find this so disgustingly false, they've not even bothered paying attention to any of it."
OK, so I think your argument here is that you're more popular within the church than me, specifically 100X more popular.  I would probably agree, and I think that's great.  GOOD FOR YOU! 

"I came on here to take my dad OUT of the pot he's being boiled alive in. You came on here to echo what every regularly on this site already stated - "we believe everything Suzanne is saying and need no proof whatsoever". How in the world would it help ANYONE on this website to come on here, anonymously claim to be a current member of our church, then proceed to say you also believe everything a woman you've never met is posting on the internet? That's the very definition of stirring the pot and helps exactly no one."
For the record, I have been in contact with many people within our church related to this subject.  This is not something where I'm just "believing everything a women I've never met is posting".  I know many of the key parties.  I have talked to many people from within our church, certain pastors,  people who I was close to back in my Rock days, and the reasons I've come to the conclusions I've come to is based on all of these conversations, not just reading accounts online from people I don't know.  So our conclusions were reached in a similar process, by trusting those around us.  Yes, we've come to different conclusions, but we both have tried to best understand the facts as they've been presented.  Could either or both of us be wrong, sure, I freely admit that, which is why I laid out my three scenarios.

"Let me get this straight: you come on here, anonymously, claiming to believe, UNEQUIVOCALLY, that my father is a liar, philanderer, and perverted sexual deviant and that my mother is an idiot or enables him, then turn around and tell me you'll apologize publicly if you're wrong? That's a little like saying "I know the sun will rise tomorrow, but if it doesn't I'll eat my shorts". This may be one of the most offensive things ever written to my family on this forum and is completely and utterly hollow."
This strikes me as the most odd.  Following up my above statement where I state that either or both of us could be wrong with our conclusions.  In that vane, I state that if my conclusions are wrong, I would personally apologize to you and your siblings.  For some reason you've taken my willingness to apologize if I'm proven wrong to be "one of the most offensive things ever written to my family".  OK, that's not my typical response around someone saying they'd be willing to admit they're wrong and personally apologize.  But maybe we just see the world differently.

"Here I can happily state that once the investigator reviews everything I already posted in my letter about the man I lived with for 21 years, there will be no discipline. Since you apparently skimmed over my letter, maybe you should go back and pick through it with a fine toothed comb."
OK, I guess i was unaware that the investigation was complete and you were acting as judge and jury, thus enabling you to say "there will be no discipline", but the reality is you don't know that, I don't know that, that's why there's an investigation.  So I give the question back to you.  I admit that you believe it to be highly unlikely, but I'm interested in your thoughts on how you'd respond, since you didn't answer that the first time.

"Since you're new here, you probably missed this: all 3 of these women claimed to have spent HOURS alone or on the phone with my dad over the exact same period of time (and often apparently in my bedroom or Micah's). Meaning my dad must have superpowers. 1 alone would have been caught by my mother within a few weeks. 3 is basically next to impossible and 7 women would have required him to never sleep (or even really ever be home for that matter). Since Suzanne's story completely fell apart (READ MY LETTER AGAIN) and these other victims are doing something NO OTHER #METOO VICTIM HAS DONE TO DATE by not posting their own stories about the "lurid conversations" they had with my dad, anyone that does NOT have a personal vendetta against my father has already checked out of this story - cause victims of REAL sex crimes have been bravely coming forward, publicly, with proof, to out their abuser. This whole time everyone's been talking about "power differential" - well who has the power now? A woman can scribble something on a bathroom wall and completely ruin a mans life. That's a power my father has NEVER known."
I'm going to just say this, because you keep accusing me and others of not reading your letter.  I did read you letter.  I didn't skim it, I actually read it twice, though I didn't listen to the self-promoting music selection you requested me to listen to while reading it, so maybe I didn't get the FULL picture, because I left that part out.  I get that you believe from what you stated in you opus that you don't believe any of this could have happened, I get that you think the events of 3 or 7 women couldn't happen at the same time. I don't get why they would have be be at the same time.  From the time your parents moved up to Minnesota and started ECC to when this story broke this January is 30+ years.  I understand from Scouts context, hers happened prior to 2001, but that still leaves a window of 12-15 years when it could happen.  I don't think the other accounts lay out clearly the timing, so they certainly could have been sequential, not at the same time.  Also, it seems to be a known fact that your father has counselled many women over the years.  Is it impossible from a small subset of those to have drifted a little further than counselling to what these accounts describe, and that Mark could have kept that from his wife and children.  Perhaps unlikely, but I think the world would tell us from how many times it happens that it's possible.  So again, i'll ask, since you didn't respond to my original question.  How would you respond if any of these other women came forward and gave up there anonymity?  What if you know them personally?  Would you respect their right to give their account, or would you attack their character and their credibility like you have done to Scout?  I understand you think this is EXTREMELY unlikely, but I would like your thoughts on this subject, as well as the thoughts of any of your "followers".





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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #118 on: March 26, 2018, 03:59:22 pm »

Thank you so much, Agatha.  That was very kind and helpful of you to do the work to type it up.  I'm sure others will appreciate it much as well.  Didn't sound like a special circumstance to him to counsel a woman alone in the basement.  Seems to match up with what other victims have said.  

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #119 on: March 26, 2018, 04:01:46 pm »

You’re welcome, Janet!
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