What verses do you have, brother?

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[puff of purple smoke]

In my GC church, there were two questions asked if you were about to make a major life decision. The first was "Have you sought counsel?", and the second was "What verses do you have?"

The second question always struck me as a little strange. I realize that when reading the Bible, God at times can and does speak through certain passages. He can make certain verses stick out, and give us guidance through that process. However, what I found in my GC church was that people seemed to believe this was the ONLY way, besides counsel, that God could speak to you. The weird thing was, it didn't seem to matter how far out of context the verses you had were!

There are many times in my life where I have just known what to do in certain situations, via the Holy Spirit's voice. God has spoken to me, but it was not in an audible voice, nor was it through a /specific/ verse. We are talking about situations not laid out in black in white in the Bible, where you seek God's direction and He gives it. I found that this sort of "knowing" was not considered enough by the people around me in my GC church. They insisted I have a specific verse. And not just a verse applicable to the situation, no, a verse that God had "given" me, whether applicable or not!

The verses people had been "given" were often held up as examples. This was especially true in courtship/marriage stories. For instance, one small group leader told us that, after much waiting, he finally knew it was God's will for him to ask a girl to marry him because when he opened his One Year Bible one morning, he found the story of Isaac and Rebekah (Genesis 24, Abraham's servant goes to look for a wife for Isaac, and asks God to have the girl Isaac is supposed to marry meet him at a well, give him water, and water his camels). Another person, a pastor, used a verse from Acts "if it is of man, it will fail, but, if it is of God, they will be found to be opposing God" as his marriage "confirmation" verse.

The Acts verse the pastor used has nothing to do with marriage. Nothing. The Isaac and Rebekah verse does, but only so far as it is relaying a story of how Isaac got married. It's not a guideline or commandment on how we are to get married. To say you feel God told you through that verse to marry a specific person, is either an inappropriate application of that verse, or it is equivalent to saying "I was reading this verse, and at that exact time the Holy Spirit spoke to me." (I'm okay with the latter.) Regardless, it doesn't change the context of that verse. Just because God can speak to us through bible verses, out of the context a verse is written in, does not mean that every major decision we make needs to be based upon God giving us one of these out of context verses. That God can speak that way, I believe, is an exception and not the rule.

I have long wondered if this was a phenomenon confined to the few GC churches in my area, or a more widespread belief. After a bit of reading, I did find a couple of examples of this occurring in the early movement.

First, Larry Pile relates the following story regarding Jim McCotter in Marching To Zion:

One blatant example of this sort of thing by Jim McCotter himself was based on Isaiah 34:16, which reads:

Seek from the book of the LORD, and read:
Not one of these will be missing;
None will lack its mate.
For His mouth has commanded,
And His Spirit has gathered them.

Jim related in Tucson (February 1973) and again in Madison (December 1976) that it was partly on the basis of this verse that he became convinced that he would one day marry. When I pointed out to him, after hearing this in Tucson, that the context did not support such an interpretation, he replied that he knew this was not the actual interpretation of the verse, but that he still felt it was a valid application. But even as an application it is farfetched. The context of the whole chapter concerns God's judgment against Edom and mentions such noxious creatures as jackals, wolves, the "night-monster," the snake, and hawks, among others (verses 13-15), as taking up their abode in that land. Verse 16 continues the reference to these animals and emphasizes the permanence of their dwelling by stating that each would have a mate, and presumably offspring who would go on inhabiting the land of Edom. This is an especially graphic way of stressing the extent of the destruction of that nation. When I mentioned these things to two or three people in Columbus I was taken aside and rebuked by one of them, who also volunteered that he and four or five other brothers, having heard Jim share this message in Madison, were claiming it as a promise for themselves!

The second example comes from an early leader of the movement:

"We have some strange stories about our courtship, and how the Lord confirmed to us His will. One way which He did NOT use was, to show us obscure and exotic verses having to do with slaying Philistines or herding goals, which could be spiritualized into commands to marry. Linda's sister Diane, for example, wanted to know what verses we had. We had verses like those in I Cor 7, Eph 5, I Pet 3, Matt 19, Pr 31, etc... which were not good enough [as far as Diane was concerned]. The idea of rooting around and getting verses which can be twisted to mean what you want, is plain silly. In fact we based our decision entirely on passages such as those just mentioned. So do not expect to get any laughs out of the verses we squirreled from the Scriptures through systematic lucky dipping and through abundant grace were able to allegorize miraculously into what we wanted to hear. Be advised, however, that one SR [Solid Rock] couple got a proof text for their upcoming wedding out of Numbers 31." The only verse in Numbers 31 that I can imagine being twisted in this way is verse 18: " 'But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.' " I say!

So... how many of you experienced this? Was my GC church just weird, or is this a widespread belief?

[sistanchrist]

Yep know that story.  My ex was convinced to start courting me through a verse and after I conveniently mentioned that we should pray about breaking up, found a verse to indicate that as well.... and yes out of the one year on the day that he asked me to enter into courtship.  He was living in Omaha at the time and going to that church.  I know that he had the verse question and conviction in his leadership there, which was an echo of our church Puff.

[G_Prince]

I think there is also a lot of spirit guidance as well. I remember a lot of people would pray about really insignificant daily things like, “who should I have lunch with?” And of course big decisions required LOTS of prayer.

I’m not against praying in any sense, nor do I think there is any such thing as “too much prayer.” It’s the philosophy behind it I could never agree with. I remember hearing over and over again, “God has the perfect plan for your life, and it’s up to you to discover it. Anything less would be selling your life short.”

Again, not really a bad statement, (too Calvinistic for me!)  but often there were a lot of people “helping” you find God’s will for your life. Often it became really confusing to distinguish what you thought was God’s will and what was your elder’s opinion.

I don’t believe any elders ever maliciously deceived me. Yet all the same I was steered in the wrong direction many times.

[puff of purple smoke]

My ex was convinced to start courting me through a verse and after I conveniently mentioned that we should pray about breaking up, found a verse to indicate that as well....

Thanks for sharing. Due to the pressure exerted on me, I too was very close to going down the road I think you are describing, the road of seeking out verses to say what I wanted them to say. After I found out that my conviction (based upon what the Holy Spirit was telling me) was not enough to solicit approval from the leaders, I did start reading the Bible looking for a verse. In my mind I justified it by saying that God spoke to me through the Holy Spirit, so he could just as easily speak to me again through a verse. Lo and behold, I soon felt like I had a verse from God. But, my conscience got the best of me because I knew that I had been searching for a verse to say what I wanted it to say. I then felt convicted because God had already spoken to me clearly in the manner He chose and thus to root around for a Bible verse to back me up was motivated out of a desire to please other men: the leaders who held so much influence on my life. The scary part is, had my conscience not bothered me, I could have very easily convinced myself the Bible verse I found was "given" to me, ignoring the convienience of it all. How legalistic we as Christians can become when we confine God's methods to a tiny box!

[exshep]

This is interesting.  The Athens church had a disdain for listen to the Holy Spirit. It was dimmissed as some type of charismatic mumbo jumbo.  It has been too many years to remember the exact verbiage or line of thought.  The life decisions were filtered through the elders.  At first I thought it was a good idea;  nothing like wise counsel I always thought.  Later I realized the elders were essentially gatekeepers.  This was borne out in the Jean Liverman story in the Montgomery County Sentinal.

[Daisy]

I have such a story.  I hesitate to post, GC members often take such stories so personally when it involves them.  For the record, I think people in GC are good people caught up in a bad organization.

I have always loved to travel and study foreign nations, sometime after joining GC I felt the tug to a new land.  At the time there were wonderful learning opportunity for me in Africa.  Naturally I prayed before considering such an exciting prospect.  God answered yes, so I began working on applications to these programs.  At the same time I got two different verses, one about "going to another land" (a new testament verse) and the other about "leaving the old home" (an old testament verse).  At a meeting with a young adults ministry leader at my church, we discussed weather all three of God's ways of communicating with people had aligned, which would give me permission to go to this country.  (Without His permission and blessing I would surely fall away from the Lord in a strange country without other GC believers from my home church.)  Verses, prayer, and counsel were the three ways of communication from God (a quite limited and unbiblical perspective actually).  The strange thing about this system is that the counsel one received was dependent upon his or her own prayers and the verses God had given them.  In my situation it was deemed that the verses that God had spoken to me were not conclusive as to whether I should embark upon this adventure, or if it was the desire of my heart; the heart is, apparently, a tool of devil used to deceive people into leaving (physically not being near to) their home GC church which would certainly then pull them away from God, or so claimed the leadership at my GC church.  The verses didn't meet the leaderships' standard of being conclusive because they did not specify a need learn a foreign language (which I would have needed to do) and did not explain why I needed to leave my current country.  

Such concern over five months away from my church, in a nation with many Christian church options; isn't God bigger than the world?  How can leaving I travel away from Him simply by attending a different church, even Jesus ordered His disciples to go to new places?  I wondered aloud at this meeting.  My question was not answered except that I did not want to fall away from God, and every person the counselor knew who had left their GC church home had fallen away from God.  This is really a limited reply to such an open question?

[jehu]

Thanks for joining us Daisy

I can relate to that.  It seems really ironic that a "Great Commission" church would need a verse for going to attend a church in another nation.  Don't they already have that verse??  

One of my stories is that the discipler wanted to exclude me from a house meeting based on "love bears all things" from 1st Cor 13... whereupon I was led to ask him to read the previous chapter, which is all about including each member of the body.  It seems like basing your whole perspective on the infallibility of the bible to the denigration of experiential faith (a faith the bible actually supports) leaves us all grasping at straws for permission to simply live.  'It isn't a sin and I have the desire' isn't an excuse in these settings.  The assumption is that all desires (even those of repented baptized Christians) are sinful unless "proven" otherwise.  This stance is not edifying as I see it.

[Brian Massman]

Would you agree that asking for a verse in context and counsel on issues is a good thing?

I agree that God does speak through impressions, but I have been burned there before.

I see this specifically in what I will call the "I hear God" syndrome.
God supposedly speaks all of this "unique and powerful" stuff to people, yet it is incredibly subjective and legalistic.  i.e.  God told me that the reason our finances our down in this church because there is a spirit of ....blah, blah, blah.

In these conversations I always get anxious.  On the other hand someone graciously and effectively handling the word of truth will say, that "the overwhelming evidence of these verses seem to lead us to this conclusion."  They leave room for God's grace to allow the Spirit to affect that person and be the true teacher, yet still using people as an instrument of God.

But I agree O mysterious Puff in your thoughts on context.  Are text is much bigger than we have thought before.   And I believe, yet completely sufficient in our modern translations to teach us what we need to know.  By His Spirit.

I was somewhat surprised at a post that questioned inerrancy.  Something I usually don't see on believing posts.   Can someone shed some light on that one for me?  I think it was Exsheep who posted it, maybe he could clarify that for me when he is back on line.
I say that with calmness Exsheep, maybe it is just a definitional thing, but was curious.

Do you guys believe the Bible is innerrant?

I would think that the basis for differences that you would have would be biblical?  Is that a correct assumption?

Peace
Brian Massman

[MamaD]

If the Bible isn't inerrant, we're in trouble.

Generally, I think, the term refers to the Bible in its original form. Men have messed up translations and offered their interpretations. For example, I personally wouldn't say the NLT or The Message are inerrant.

About having a verse for everything, I am reminded of what happened when my husband as a young lad was caught with his hand (literally) in the cookie jar. As his mom caught him in the act of grabbing a cookie, he turned and with great confidence said, "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might."

He was ready with his verse! So, God must have wanted him to take that cookie!

[maranatha]

"Have you sought counsel?"

I've heard the scriptures that talk of the value of good counsel, but I was surprised not too long ago to hear a sermon(non-gcm) speak of scripture going against counsel at times.

It was Acts 21 where the people all said that the Spirit told them that  Paul shouldn't go to Jerusulem.  

But he was confident where God was leading and went anyway.  Don't remember exactly the details, but apparently it was very good that he didn't listen to what everyone was saying.

Here it is:

Acts 21:11 Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.'" 12 When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."

[lone gone]

the Spirit was NOT saying to Paul that he should NOT go to Jerusalem.  The Spirit told Paul what was going to happen to Paul WHEN he got to Jerusalem.

The people became afraid.... there is that FEAR thing ....

they were afraid that they were losing Paul and that they knew a better way to proceed.  

If Paul had not gone, we'd not have gotten alot of our Scripture which was written while Paul was imprisoned.

God's perspective is not bounded by time or place. Paul knew this and had no fear that God had the ultimate greatest good in mind.

[Brian Massman]

Great cookie story.   I love it.  

Well put on the modern translations and original language Mama D.
When I study, I use a few translations and a lexicon to clear up issues.
That is a huge help.  Bible software is awesome for that.

Good thoughts on the counsel as well.   There is victory in the abundance of counsel.  That is a principle, not a law.

If we are generally a maverick, that follows only our own instincts, bad thing.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
"Have you sought counsel?"

I've heard the scriptures that talk of the value of good counsel, but I was surprised not too long ago to hear a sermon(non-gcm) speak of scripture going against counsel at times.

It was Acts 21 where the people all said that the Spirit told them that Paul shouldn't go to Jerusulem.

But he was confident where God was leading and went anyway. Don't remember exactly the details, but apparently it was very good that he didn't listen to what everyone was saying.

Here it is:

Acts 21:11 Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.'" 12 When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."

[Brian Massman]

the other posting got into mine.

Man for a software salesman, I am sure technically challenged!
 :?

[exshep]

I was somewhat surprised at a post that questioned inerrancy.  Something I usually don't see on believing posts.   Can someone shed some light on that one for me?  I think it was Exsheep who posted it, maybe he could clarify that for me when he is back on line.
I say that with calmness Exsheep, maybe it is just a definitional thing, but was curious.

Do you guys believe the Bible is innerrant?

I would think that the basis for differences that you would have would be biblical?  Is that a correct assumption?

Peace
Brian Massman

Having been burned by inerrancy arguements, I take a slightly more moderate stance,  for me.   I do believe the authority of scriptures.   I am also a stickler for verses in context, especially after GC members taking them out of context.  

Sorry for taking so long to respond.   I trying to build back my finances, so internet access at home is going to have to  wait. Oddly enough GCM Warning is filtered at work.  I look forward to having the cable guy come over to hook me up as soon as the funds are available.

[maranatha]

The following reminded me of the original post in this thread:

"But our inclination to replace the King with a thing does not die easily.  It rears its ugly head even when we search for answers in Scripture.

 We approach the Bible with a "where can I find a verse on ____" mentality.

 We forget that the only hope the principles offer rests on the Person, Jesus Christ.  

And we forget that the bible is not an encyclopedia, but a story of God's plan to rescue hopeless and helpless humanity.  

It's a story about people who are rescued from their own self sufficiency and wisdom and transported to a kingdom where Jesus is central and true hope is alive.  

We cannot treat the Bible as a collection of therapeutic insights.

 To do so distorts its message and will not lead to lasting change.  If a system could give us what we need, Jesus would never have come.

 But he came because what was wrong with us could not be fixed any other way.  

He is the only answer, so we must never offer a message that is less than the good news.

We don't offer people a system; we point them to a Redeemer.

He *is* hope."

~~~~

"Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands-People in Need of Change Helping People in Need of Change" by Paul David Tripp

[steelgirl]

This is interesting.  The Athens church had a disdain for listen to the Holy Spirit. It was dimmissed as some type of charismatic mumbo jumbo.  It has been too many years to remember the exact verbiage or line of thought.  The life decisions were filtered through the elders.  At first I thought it was a good idea;  nothing like wise counsel I always thought.  Later I realized the elders were essentially gatekeepers.  This was borne out in the Jean Liverman story in the Montgomery County Sentinal.

What happened with Jean Liverman?

Could the fact the elders did not want to listen to God speak be the reason why the church in Athens no longer exist?

[steelgirl]

I have such a story.  I hesitate to post, GC members often take such stories so personally when it involves them.  For the record, I think people in GC are good people caught up in a bad organization.

I have always loved to travel and study foreign nations, sometime after joining GC I felt the tug to a new land.  At the time there were wonderful learning opportunity for me in Africa.  Naturally I prayed before considering such an exciting prospect.  God answered yes, so I began working on applications to these programs.  At the same time I got two different verses, one about "going to another land" (a new testament verse) and the other about "leaving the old home" (an old testament verse).  At a meeting with a young adults ministry leader at my church, we discussed weather all three of God's ways of communicating with people had aligned, which would give me permission to go to this country.  (Without His permission and blessing I would surely fall away from the Lord in a strange country without other GC believers from my home church.)  Verses, prayer, and counsel were the three ways of communication from God (a quite limited and unbiblical perspective actually).  The strange thing about this system is that the counsel one received was dependent upon his or her own prayers and the verses God had given them.  In my situation it was deemed that the verses that God had spoken to me were not conclusive as to whether I should embark upon this adventure, or if it was the desire of my heart; the heart is, apparently, a tool of devil used to deceive people into leaving (physically not being near to) their home GC church which would certainly then pull them away from God, or so claimed the leadership at my GC church.  The verses didn't meet the leaderships' standard of being conclusive because they did not specify a need learn a foreign language (which I would have needed to do) and did not explain why I needed to leave my current country.  

Such concern over five months away from my church, in a nation with many Christian church options; isn't God bigger than the world?  How can leaving I travel away from Him simply by attending a different church, even Jesus ordered His disciples to go to new places?  I wondered aloud at this meeting.  My question was not answered except that I did not want to fall away from God, and every person the counselor knew who had left their GC church home had fallen away from God.  This is really a limited reply to such an open question?

Did you go to Africa in the long run.

Right now I am wondering if I should pursue  a dream.  If I don't it will be because God tells me not to, since I don't want to make any life alterating decisions unless God is in it?

When were you in GCM?

[steelgirl]

Over 6 yrs ago, I remember going to a prayer group that would meet once or twice a month in another member/leaders place.  

I remember one of the cause for concerns in the movement was this new translation.  I hope I don't evoke controversy here, but they were saying that major truths were being left out because it was more egalitarian.  GCM did not like that.

Over yrs later, I start helping out in my present church's bookstore.  I see this controversially Bible.  I asked if this translation was an inerrant as the other translations and the assistant manager said she used it in her personal devotions.  I myself must be  a heretic, because in addition to the NLT that I discovered through the GCM church as well as another version I actually bought myself this Bible.  I hear it might be the closest the greek translation according to somebody in my church's Bible School.

[MidnightRider]

...this new translation.  I hope I don't evoke controversy here, but they were saying that major truths were being left out because it was more egalitarian.  GCM did not like that.

Over yrs later, ... the assistant manager said she used it in her personal devotions.  ... I hear it might be the closest the greek translation according to somebody in my church's Bible School.

Steelperson,
Controversy?? On this list?! Who would have ever expected it?!  

Not sure what translation you are talking about. But the fact that GCM disliked it does not make it bad. The fact that the saintly assistant manager liked it does not make it good. And I would not uncritically accept the opinion of an unidentified person (the receptionist or the janitor, perhaps?) at an unidentified (Vacation?) Bible School.

I learned a lot just from reading the translator's intro/preface to the various Bibles I had on my shelf, especially the NKJV (my favorite) and the NIV (my not-nearly-so-favorite).

[steelgirl]

...this new translation.  I hope I don't evoke controversy here, but they were saying that major truths were being left out because it was more egalitarian.  GCM did not like that.

Over yrs later, ... the assistant manager said she used it in her personal devotions.  ... I hear it might be the closest the greek translation according to somebody in my church's Bible School.

Steelperson,
Controversy?? On this list?! Who would have ever expected it?!  

Not sure what translation you are talking about. But the fact that GCM disliked it does not make it bad. The fact that the saintly assistant manager liked it does not make it good. And I would not uncritically accept the opinion of an unidentified person (the receptionist or the janitor, perhaps?) at an unidentified (Vacation?) Bible School.

I bought a Today's New Internation Version Bible about 2 yrs ago.  It is more indepth than the Message where at least one Sunday Sermon came out while at the GCM.  I love Today's New International Version because it includes brothers and sisters. Nothing is missing out of this Bible.  Some of the major leaders in GCM might have a cow.  One famous leader was having a cow in GCM.  On the other hand, my church has an evening Bible School where people from my church and other churches in the area attend.  At least GCM elder has gone to this Bible School.

Nothing is missing from this version of the Bible contrary to what leaders were leading people in GCM to believe.