What would it take for you to stop using the De-Commissioned Forum?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[LuisCamachoIII]

Hello all!  

I presume that this forum was created to be a safe place to find healing from the pains suffered via the GC movement. I further assume that at some point you would like to go from "healing" to "healed" and that you desire to eventually move on from your pain, just like someone that goes to a hospital or community help meeting eventually wants to move on. Is that correct?

In light of that, I have a very simple, non-combative, non-judgmental question: What would need to happen in your life or in the GC movement for you to discontinue your use of this forum?

I already started a thread that contained my point of view and nobody responded to it  . So now I want to ask more directly and listen and understand . Thanks!

[G_Prince]

I haven't been to this forum in probably six years? I only returned after a dear friend of mine alerted me to the Evergreen troll campaign. So I guess I will leave when the ECC people go...although now, I might check in ever so often.

[AgathaL'Orange]

GC is barely even on my radar anymore. I actually like to stay away because it is better for my own faith walk to do so.

I re-watched Rain Man recently and was bizarrely triggered because of a rant by Tom Cruise. It’s the scene on the road when Tom Cruise jumps out of the car and starts ranting.  It sounded exactly like a pastor I once used to listen to a lot at GC.
 
It starts at minute 1:52.

https://youtu.be/cso7nzw8j0I

It’s things like that that pop back up.  It’s kinda weird.  I guess I attended during formative years.


So in answer to your question.  It’s only been this year that I’ve even been here after ages of being away.

[GodisFaithful]

You would probably get a different answer for every single person on here.  We are hard to figure out.

Except for people who come on here to fight and argue about whether this forum is needed or helpful or wrong or sinful, what I see are just a bunch of people who are trying to figure out their experience in GCx. For the most part what I see is people who have exited but not always.  So, it's complicated. GCx churches and ministries are all over the U.S. but they seem (some more than others) to leave a trail of tears or just plain frustration or confusion.  We can ask questions here.  We can express an opinion without being accused of slander.  To be honest with you, the legacy of excommunications for "slander" (what church does that?) is chilling, but it is usually hush-hushed all up so that know one knows quite what happened and are told not to ask or talk about it. After all that would be more slander. Often, until coming here, people have not tried to process some confusing and damaging things.  

And now, I will tell you one of my biggest problems, in my experience, and in trying to figure out what happened to us and what I see happening to others.  At this point I am not going to name a specific church, and there may be some GC churches that do not teach this, but the one I left did.  I believe that a well meaning pastor who does not know better can teach this, but it is heretical and it is false teaching and it has dire consequences.

The teaching goes something like this: I am in the place of Moses in your life because I am your pastor.  Someone has to lead. It is not easy to lead. God wants you to follow, and in this case since I am the pastor and you are in my church God wants you to follow me even if some things do not make sense to you. And just remember what happened to the grumblers. The ground swallowed them up. End of Teaching.

 Let me explain why I have a huge problem with that.  I am a lay person, not a Bible scholar, but it does not  take a commentary to get this one.  Read Deuteronomy 34:10 "No prophet has arisen again in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face. He was unparalleled for all the signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do against the land of Egypt-to Pharoah, to all his officials, and to all his land, and for all the mighty acts of power and terrifying deeds that Moses performed in the sight of all Isreal."

 It's interesting because in Acts 3:22 Moses is quoted to have said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your brothers..." Much of Acts 7 talks about this also. Moses was a type of Christ.  It is clear. No New Testament church pastor should claim the mantel of a modern day Moses.  Can they part the Red Sea? God was doing something totally different back in that time.  And no pastor should be obeyed as if he is a type of Moses.  We have the Holy Spirit to guide us and teach us and lead us and comfort us and show us truth and on and on. I am not saying that pastors don't have the responsibility to teach. I am saying that Christ is the Head of the church and that Moses was a type of Christ.  When you have skewed teaching like this, I believe it sets up the conditions for a lot of spiritual abuse (oops, there is that hated new condition) where a pastor can feel completely justified in just about whatever he wants to say and do and he can leave a world of hurt behind.  And in his mind those pesky Israelites were not cooperating and not worthy to be bothered about and they are questioning instead of obeying, etc.  False teaching has consequences.  And the consequences many times are people who are left bleeding on the side of the road while spiritual leaders who think they are doing just fabulously pass right on by without even hardly a wave. And the consequences are also pastors who think too highly of themselves and they can say things and do things that are an abuse of power and position. It is dangerous.

I have more to say, but I have to go somewhere.  I might post later, again.  (Martin Luther posted you know. Not that I am comparing myself to him.)

Don't worry, Luis.  If you have drunk the Kool-Aid and find it tasty, you probably won't find us good company, and that is fine.

Thanks for asking.

I was off since 2014 until recently.

[Peace]

I posted the following question in another thread, but it got buried rather quickly due to the ECC postings. This post led to quite an encouraging, heartfelt and I think mutually-beneficial private conversation between myself and another forum user. (Feel free to jump in if you have any thoughts, but I respect your privacy and will not name you).

But this was the question/situation we discussed:
"I know one person who posts on here. I know the person quite well and I was there for the situations they post about. What they post is completely false or a gross exaggeration of what actually occurred. What would you suggest I do in this case? Call them out? Blow their anonymity and mine? Or would I just be viewed as defensive? I'm serious, what can a current GCx member do if false information is posted here?"

Please don't misunderstand me as playing the victim here; I know this forum is not about me or for me. However, damage HAS been done on both sides of many of these situations whether it be intentional or unintentional. In my case, I have watched forum users rally around this person who has posted things that are simply not true and have portrayed my local church, pastors and even at times myself in a very negative light. This has been heartbreaking from my end and there's not a darn thing I can do about it.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I would say:

1.  Did they talk to the person?
2.  Is it possible that when something negative happens to a person it may feel very different to that person than to the other people who did it, whatever that thing is?
3.  Have you sincerely tried to understand their position? 
4.  I have no idea what the topic is, but have you tried to understand more about that particular topic?
5.  Is the person someone who others lend credibility to or is it someone who is usually ignored or even sometimes contradicted on threads?


And finally, after that's over with, you could always try simply counteracting the posts (without being ridiculous and overposting, one or two times is enough) with your side or version of the truth. 

To me that's valid.  But I've also had a lot of people say, oh that's not the kind of thing that happens in GCx.  Not my church.  Or not ever.  Or that was one time.  When often times there are many many reports of the same kinds of things over years and years.  And remember there were two blogs that preceded this board, with all comments included there. 


I'm not even a mod or admin.  This isn't even my board, and like I said, it's only been recently that I've been back, and I STILL get messages from people about GCx and how their involvment affected them.  Usually it's from people who grew up in the movement, but sometimes it's those who joined as college students or adults.  So, obviously perceptions are extraordinarily different here.  And when people say "GCx" instead of a specific church, often times it was an attempt NOT to humiliate a particular church or person or pastor.  But once people said, "Well, not ALL GC is like that," then people felt the need to be more specific, which has positives and negatives.

[Huldah]

I presume that this forum was created to be a safe place to find healing from the pains suffered via the GC movement. I further assume that at some point you would like to go from "healing" to "healed" and that you desire to eventually move on from your pain, just like someone that goes to a hospital or community help meeting eventually wants to move on. Is that correct?

Some of us stay because we believe we can continue to be of help to the newcomers here. Our own experience and healing may be in the past, but we're here for those whose wounding is still fresh.

[Peace]

AgathaL'Orange,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I cannot give specifics about the situation as I do not wish to call this person out or give away my identity, but this is a vague summary of what occurred from my perspective:

I believe my friend was hurt, not by GCx as a whole, but by a few individuals in a few specific circumstances. They came to this forum to discuss those hurts (which I believe is completely fine.), but rather than being encouraged to work things out with those individuals, they were fed "evidence" of the GCx poison. I watched my friend essentially drink this forum's own version of "Kool-aid" and watched them cut ties with their friends, ask other friends to pick which "side" they were on, and make posts which were just downright hurtful. Many of us close to this person tried to make things right, tried to support them regardless of our differences, even encouraged them to find a different church. But any and all dialogue was completely shut down by the "evidence" they presented from this forum and we were accused of judging them, being defensive and trying to get them to come back.

Then, the really devastating part of it, they posted here about how they were shunned and lost all their friends. It was like a self-fulfilling prophecy, but the sad reality is they made the choice to have it be that way. Again, I'm not saying this is the norm on this forum, but it has happened and I felt it needed to be shared. There are always two sides to every story.

[Outtathere]

I check here and there. I first came on because leaving my church in Des Moines was extremely difficult and unhealthy and the things I saw and tried to resolve were met with deaf ears until I left. When I left, so many others shared my experience (both on and outside of this forum). My reason for initially coming to this forum was to share my experience with others who had left and had similar experiences. In that sense, it ministered to me.

Now, I come and check semi-regularly. While it is not a need for me to heal, I have had communications with others whom have sought me out (and occasionally whom I have sought out), to let them know that they are not alone. In this sense, I minister to others.

GC is a small part of my life and after years of being away, I feel I have been able to separate the good experiences from the unhealthy and abusive experiences. I do feel that the recurring issues that keep happening on this forum dating all the way back to the weakness paper in 1991 will not go away because they are related to bad theology. I will probably continue to check in occasionally and reach out to people who are currently having difficulty dealing with things that I previously went through until the faulty theological stances are truly dealt with.

Read, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse," by VanVonderan and tell me if the same thing isn't happening still in GC. When those abuses stop happening, I suppose I won't feel the need to point them out. I think if every person in GC read that book, the attendance in abusive churches within GC would decrease by 50%.

[Janet Easson Martin]

Outtathere-

Absolutely to your last paragraph!


Isolating a group of people by strongly persuading them NOT to read authors (who are believers) that speak forthrightly about spiritual abuse or unhealthy churches is leading them to follow the leaders' spiritual blindness. Here is the Spirit's perspective on that type of harmful blinding.  These are not my words, but His.

"Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."

Matthew 15:14

Many people in GCx churches have been scolded from listening to sound Christian authors.  For instance, Beth Moore is NOT a kook as some have been intentionally told probably because she describes environments like many GCx churches as dangerous to your faith.  

But, many of us know in our spirit and from first hand observation that Jim McCotter is a kook for many, many, many reasons.  One of the most blatant is his definition and view of sin and of himself.  I and 300+ witnesses were there the day he announced from his "pulpit" that 'There were people in the room that hadn't sinned in a year'.  Taking that along with other reckless and arrogant behaviors and statements of his, can no doubt be labeled as the mouth or a kook!

McCotter has never been labeled to the GCx public by their leaders or board as a false teacher, much less a kook.
This is blinding others from the truth to save their own skin, not those of their sheep.

If you watched any of the WACO shows on TV, it is obvious the people had to be blinded to by their leader in order to accept his dangerous teachings.  Many that were in the group are still devotedly loyal to him and the teachings he deceptively introduced to them.  Few christians would argue in regard to the soundness of these Davidians blinded by a man with no sense of the truth.  And sadly, most were led right into physical destruction.

I fortunately was not led into physical destruction by a GCx church, but I did suffer very real spiritual destruction; and also in relationships with family, friends, and coworkers.  It hurt my personal growth and maturity in decision-making and a healthy ego (or confidence in God's approval of me).  As we know from many, many, many testimonies on here the effect of this single organization's abuse toward it's members was far reaching and longstanding; and, as we have seen on this site, is still occurring.

By the way, I am confident I was called by God to write here over seven years ago to expose the abuse of the GCx organization and it's churches; which I witnessed first hand and have learned continues today.  I saw and heard things in Maryland where many national leaders also preached; and at every GCx-wide conference I attended.  More recently, what a blessing it's been to be a continuing supporter of those who have sought needed refuge in a setting motivated by those seeking truth and healing - not withstanding the wolves that stand at the door at times.

[HughHoney]

Camacho III I think your presumption is wrong.  Not  everyone is here for the same reason. A lot are here to warn others of the dangers of this movement.

[HughHoney]

Wave that Totalist Aberrant Christian Organization flag proudly GTA

“Hey guys, at least we aren’t a cult!”*




*probably

[GodisFaithful]

Thank you, Hugh Honey, that's right and yer sweet!!

So, people think it's just fine to stay in a church where the pastor is deluded into thinking that he is a type of Moses and another teaching that is similar is that I as the pastor am the husband and you are my bride if you are in my church?? This is Kool-aid and it is dangerous on so many levels.

And even if the pastors decide not to teach that because they've gotten too much flack over it, they don't seem to humbly say that they were so so very wrong for teaching that.  It is a huge error! It gives pastors way too much authority and control. After all this hubbub that started recently, I walk into my church (which is not perfect) and I walk past the pictures on the wall of the board of elders who are elected by the congregation and who the pastors are accountable to, and I breath a sigh of relief.  

Some of the stuff that I have seen quoted from teachings at EC...well, lets just say it is embarrassing. If a pastor at our church said that kind of stuff, they would be out. But who are they accountable to? Each other? Sorry folks, I can see from the outside it's not working in their favor or for the well being of the flock. Do you realize how many people with tragic stories and sad stories are on this forum of people who are so confused and damaged from perhaps well meaning hyper control freak pastors who think it is ok to just get rid of someone because they don't quite fit the mold of who they want in their church, etc? We just had a few this week.  Just go to hellos and testimonies and while you do, have a heart. Maybe it's working out fine if you are one of their favorites, their little pet inner circle, yes men, yes women, but just don't rock their boat!!  I do not think of these people as my enemy. I think their teaching is deluded, damaging, degrading and downright dangerous.

So it would take a lot for me to stop using De-Com.

[GodisFaithful]

And I say all that with the greatest of charity. 

[Janet Easson Martin]

Here is a link to some earlier posts I made on one thread that should shed some light on what I personally mean when I use the term False Teacher.


http://forum.gcmwarning.com/jim-mccotter-gc-history/false-teachers-can-be-believers-led-astray/


Here is an excerpt from the first post:

"There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what the New Testament calls False Teachers.  Some seem to think of them as Spiritual Teachers who teach religions other than Jesus.  However, Teachers under the Spirit of the Anti-Christ teach other religions.  The New Testament False Teachers teach about and proclaim "Jesus".  But it is out of their own imagination, and not revealed or inspired by God.  Unfortunately, they even quote scripture, but it is not at all accurate.  It is twisted..."

[HughHoney]

Point was, that stuff has not been happening since I have been around, maybe in the crazy 70's there was some of that, I don't know.

70’s? You are uninformed at best, more likely duped. The shepherding culture is more subtle these days but it’s pervasive. Be careful.

[AgathaL'Orange]

As Bertrand Baggersley told me tonight, what keeps him from needing to post is knowing GC people never want to change or want a change  and there’s no point in posting.  

Kinda made me sad but he has a point.  

[Janet Easson Martin]

Oh my gosh, I'm so glad someone brought up Beth Moore and Priscilla Shirer and their Bible Study Series on Prayer.  I didn't know about it.  So I googled it and read excerpts from the book cited by the group that actually attacks them.  (See link below.)  I was so excited when I learned what their series includes I'm thinking about ordering it and doing it with my neighbors!  

Listening to the Holy Spirit is something we were definitely not encouraged in or supported in doing in GCx. Many have written about that large missing theology in GCx.  Here's a way to catch up a little on the truth of Him!  

Looked to see who else they loved to hate - oh - Andy Stanley.  That makes me want check out and possibly drink in what he's been teaching that bothers them.  Is it jealousy that drives this hatred?  

Anyhow, please don't take this site link as support for the publisher's theology.  Quite the opposite, learn what good may be happening or where God may be working from their disapproval of it (not all of course).  And yes, they seem to disapprove of Henry Blackaby, too.

Enjoy:  

http://pulpitandpen.org/2016/09/09/priscilla-shirer-womens-bible-mis-studies-when-your-church-doesnt-care-about-your-soul-or-the-scripture/

[Gladtobegone]

I love Priscilla Schirer.  Isn't she Tony Evans daughter? 

What is the book that lists GCx as a cult?  I want to buy that one too.
 

[blonde]

Kingdom of the Cults, by Martin, has Great Commission International in there.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=kingdom+of+the+cults&tag=mh0b-20&index=aps&hvadid=78546413044345&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_79jhjuawv2_e

It was an earlier edition.

-Blonde