When and where were you involved with GCx?

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[araignee19]

I have been wondering lately how many of the people on this forum were involved in the "bad old day," and and how many were hurt by GCx recently. I have heard many people say that the problems in GCx are something from the past, and those who claim the church still has problems are not caught up on their news. This is certainly not true of me.

I have also wondered if there are current areas where the majority of people who have been recently hurt by GCx are coming from. I see a lot of people from Minnesota, Colorado, and Iowa on this forum (maybe it's just that I pay attention to those states more?). Is there actually a trend? And if so, could there be a reason for this? Is it possible that the current problems in GCx are mainly isolated to a few churches?

I'd love any thoughts or input. I understand that some people are not going to want to answer this due to issues with remaining anonymous; That's totally fine.

And to answer my own question, I was at Summitview, Fort Collins, CO, from about 2006-2011.

[Linda]

I have been wondering lately how many of the people on this forum were involved in the "bad old day," and and how many were hurt by GCx recently. I have heard many people say that the problems in GCx are something from the past, and those who claim the church still has problems are not caught up on their news. This is certainly not true of me.

I was at Evergreen, MN from 1995 - 2005.

I did not leave because I was "hurt" by anyone. We left because in February of 2005 a pastor, Mark Darling, at a gathering of all the Evergreen locations called "Fanning the Flame" (1000+ people) that leaving Evergreen was equivalent to divorcing your wife and no one seemed to think there was anything wrong with this. Then, 5 months later, our daughter was asked to commit to Evergreen FOR LIFE, while at HSLT in Colorado.

We left because of flawed teaching and error.

We knew nothing of the "bad old days" until all of this happened. It was after the Mark Darling talk about leaving being equivalent to divorce that we Googled and first heard the name Jim McCotter and learned of the Statement of Error. The Google search put us in touch with Larry Pile and Larry was the one who showed us the Statement of Error because the pastor we asked never got us a copy as he had promised. Lots of deception and error were our reasons for departure.

Two of our pastors were on the national board. We have nothing against these men and wish them well. We hope one day they will see and correct their error.

[araignee19]

I did not leave because I was "hurt" by anyone. We left because in February of 2005 a pastor, Mark Darling, at a gathering of all the Evergreen locations called "Fanning the Flame" (1000+ people) that leaving Evergreen was equivalent to divorcing your wife and no one seemed to think there was anything wrong with this. Then, 5 months later, our daughter was asked to commit to Evergreen FOR LIFE, while at HSLT in Colorado.

We left because of flawed teaching and error.

Ah, good point. Sorry, leaving because of "hurt" wasn't the best way to phrase that. How about leaving because of hurt, wrong teachings/doctrines, abuse, etc.?

[Linda]

The reason I dislike the word "hurt" is that it implies a "relational" problem that can be fixed by "forgiveness/reconciliation". False teaching is not to be forgiven, false teaching is to be exposed and corrected. That said, the false teaching in GC (specifically in the view of commitment for life and obedience to pastors/shepherding) has hurt many people and families that I know in major, horrible ways. It has ruined friendships, caused anxiety and depression that has required professional help, separated children from their parents.

Didn't mean to get picky. I think what you were wanting to find out is how many of the issues with GC are current or how many problems are from the "bad old days".

[EverAStudent]

I was in from 1977 until 1984, or was it 1985...whichever.  I would rather not say where. 

My fiancee recruited me in and I left with my wife.  We left primarily because of the terrible doctrine we were fed (i.e. pledge to stay in GC for life, only GC will reach the world for Christ, you are married to GC when you join, all males must work toward becoming pastors, disagreement with the pastors on the meaning of a passage is the true purpose of Matthew 18 discipline, all Scripture passages are literal or symbolic commandments to evangelize, it is acceptable for the pastors to encourage a couple to divorce if one of the spouses wishes to leave GC, parts of the commandments of the Old Testament Law were still binding on New Testament Christians, etc). 

And yes, we were horribly abused by the pastors.  But oddly, it was not the abuse that motivated us to leave (I guess I had gotten used to being abused due to my personal background).  We constantly heard messages that contradicted the meaning of the passages cited and when we asked about the interpretive gap the pastors always over-reacted with hostility and punishment but were never able to explain their exegetical method (assuming they had one may have been overly generous). 

So, over time we had our fill of terrible doctrine and we left...  Of course, what happened when we left is a story I have posted elsewhere on this forum.   ughhhhh...midnight gestapo visits, lies, false charges, ughhh...

[Huldah]

Columbus, Ohio, 1979. Don't know if the same abusive practices still exist. Same bad doctrine is still alive and going strong.

[araignee19]

Linda, glad you pointed it out. I was very tired when I wrote that (been busy, finally had a few minutes), and was having trouble focusing... *sigh*   It is important to make that distinction, because whether "hurt" or "false teaching" are the main issue changes what the solution should be. But yeah, mostly just wondering about when and where people were involved. Thanks

[Linda]

araignee19,
After we Googled, learned of the history/statement of error, contacted our pastors, asked a pastor on the national board about the statement of error who gave us a confused look and said he seemed to remember a "statement of clarification", offered to get us one, and then didn't, we learned of Larry Pile and Wellspring. Larry not only got us the Statement of Error, he sent us Marching to Zion. In it my husband read a paragraph that caught his eye and wrote:

One of the most interesting analyses of the development of thinking in GCI is a series of questions and statements regarding this shift addressed to Blitz leaders in 1977 by a group of men in Albuquerque. One incisive excerpt included in Pile’s book:

“Such practices and attitudes [regarding elders] we feel amount to spiritual bigotry and pride, based upon an improper concept of authority and leadership, and an underdeveloped concept of the body of Christ.”(italics mine)

If that 30-year-old assessment were not so eerily similar to what we thought we were picking up, we wouldn’t have noticed.


I know the talking points Hopler likes to make are that people who are critical and blog/post on forums, etc. are talking about things that happened in the past, but he is wrong in that assessment.

Great Commission has never stopped teaching and practicing the things they apologized for in the lengthy Statement of Error and Apology.

Great Commission has never distanced themselves from and corrected the bad teaching of Jim McCotter.

Great Commission seems more concerned about how they look and how "hurt" they have been by "Internet criticisms" than they are with actually correcting the error that they have perpetuated for over 40 years.

Huldah, what were the biggest abusive practices you experienced in Columbus?
EveraStudent, your story always shocks me. So glad you and your wife are free.
Araignee19, how would you sum up your reasons for leaving?

Also, does anyone remember a chart that shows how "Ames" is the mother church and all the other churches that have been "planted" from Ames? I can never remember where it is.

[Linda]

OK, here is the chart showing all roads lead to Ames. And, of course, Ames starts with McCotter.

http://330808991cd8338e7b1d-415c91909dc8daf4859058a44506d4ce.r82.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/g/0e428505_gcc-history.pdf

I have downloaded this in case they try anything fancy. I have a copy. The last page shows how Ames started it all.

On page 4 it mentions that Stonebrook has started 72 churches. The trail leads to McCotter. Nothing has changed. They have never corrected the bad teaching. Great Commission published the McCotter/Clark leadership book. They have never corrected the bad teaching.

One thing to note. It does look as if they have removed Dennis Clark from the national board and added Doug Brown and John Meyer. I wonder if they removed Clark because of his connection to the leadership book.

[wisemind]

    The Great Commission Church still has problems - and that's an understatement. It's in their DNA. The more involved you get and the more you buy into their teaching, the more the "problems" affect you mentally, emotionally, and psychologically. At the same time, you don't see them as "problems" because you have bought into the system by then. Casual members don't experience the same mental, emotional, psychological consequences as people who are devoted the the teachings of the movement.

    I have come to this conclusion based on mental health professionals' objective assessment of this church's beliefs, (this includes psychiatrists, licensed psychologists, therapists, and nurses), and after speaking to core young people who have left the GCM church because of trauma caused by these beliefs,  actually looking deeper into what their lives and emotional states really were while they were in the system, listening to numerous Faithwalkers messages to understand what they preach, and realizing that the outward appearance of the seeming harmony, unity, friendliness and caring is how they are supposed to act, not truly a manifestation of inner peace and joy that comes from following Jesus.
     Mentally, you become confused, unable to logically think things through for yourself. You aren't encouraged (or allowed) to question anything but to accept what the pastors and leaders tell you. You are expected to seek counsel for decisions that you should be responsible for deciding for yourself, and you constantly have people telling you how to live, what to think, and holding you "accountable" in the system.
     Emotionally, life is hard. It's supposed to be hard. Some people cry regularly, often daily. They give up desires they once had in order to serve the church more fully. (Notice I did not say serve God.) Their hopes and dreams and activities that are not church or outreach related are strongly discouraged. True friendships are discouraged so everyone can be "best friends" in the system. Joy is an emotion that is rare.
     Psychologically, people become sad and depressed. Guilt rules their lives, as does fear. They become afraid of God's judgement, afraid they are not doing enough, afraid of living alone or living with anyone not in the system, afraid of honestly examining how much they really are hurting and why, and very afraid to leave the system or have anyone else leave. Anger, frustration, resentment, guilt, etc. well up in a devoted GCM'er but the system does not provide a healthy way to deal with these feelings so they get stuffed and bottled up inside. The cheerful mask of joy and unity is worn despite the inner pain and turmoil. This contradiction within a person creates psychological chaos. I don't think it is possible to be psychologically healthy if you buy into this system.

     The tragedy is that this is not at all evident at first glance. This "church" looks like a healthy, growing body of believers to most people - myself included. There are college educated, polite, dedicated, talented young people who do the work of this church. It looks so good on the outside, but the true underbelly of this church is dysfunction, pain, depression, and fear. No one is encouraged to seek therapy outside the church, but this system is powerless to help anyone find real answers that lead to true peace and joy - the way Christ intended for us to live. The majority of pastors cannot hear or accept any criticism or counsel without defensiveness. It's their way or the highway.

     If anyone is looking for guidance on whether to join this movement, be it Evergreen, Walnut Creek, or Summitview, please run the other way. Listen to past Faithwalkers messages with a discerning ear and educate yourself on what they believe and teach you (or your kids).

     Finally, if you are devoted to serving this church and your life is hard, joyless, you cry very frequently, are stuffing your true feelings and questions while putting on a happy face, and are filled with fear about normal things (like living alone, study abroad, etc.), allowing other people to make major (and minor) decisions for you, and are burned out with constant service, activities, and meeting with people, I would implore you to look at your life, begin to listen to your gut feelings and emotions.  Don't let fear, control, intimidation, and pleading from others keep you from leaving this system. It may be the hardest thing you have ever done, but there is joy, independence, freedom, peace, and contentment in Jesus apart from this controlling environment. Others have gone before you and will support you in your decision and new life. My prayer is that God would open your eyes to see the truth and bring healing to your life.

[DevastatedTC]

Well, here is one person who disagrees:
http://vimeo.com/74320013

[Linda]

Wow. That is pathetic. The key word in Josh's message was "seems". I agree with him on that. GC churches "seem" normal. Maybe someone should send Josh a couple of Faithwalkers talks, or the HSLT talk given to our high school daughter telling her to commit for life, or the talk given by a GC pastor who sits on the national board that says leaving your local church is the same as divorcing your wife, or the talk telling people that you should give the controls of your life to your local GC pastor. I wonder what Josh would have to say about that. Maybe Josh should talk to the families of the people whose lives have been turned upside down by this shepherding sect. Very sad. Very foolish of Josh to speak without knowing both sides of the story.

Wisemind, your post is so spot on. Thank you for posting. I hope everyone reads it. I know it will resonate with many and perhaps they will be able to find freedom and joy in Christ once again.

[EverAStudent]

Thanks for posting the link to the ASA chart (Ames Self-Agrandizement chart).  I see that they were not looking for accuracy as much as to claim credit for "starting" many churches.  Specifically, Ames claims our church as having been planted by Ames, according to the chart.

With respect to our situation I was on the founding church planting team, leaving one city to plant a church in another (job changes, uprooting, the whole nine yards).  Our founding church planting team did NOT come from Ames but from another small town in a different state, and even our "home/sending" church was not founded by Ames.  Our home church joined GC because Jim sold the idea to the church leadership, but we were not an Ames plant and the churches we planted were not Ames plants.  In fact, I had never even visited the Ames church!

Trust NOTHING GC publishes, no matter how mundane it seems.  

Thanks again for sharing the ASA chart.

[Huldah]

Huldah, what were the biggest abusive practices you experienced in Columbus?

I've written about some of the abusive things I witnessed or experienced in this post. The one that probably upset me most at the time was monitoring the private conversations of members to ensure loyalty to the leadership. The incident I experienced was so invasive and disturbing, I'll quote a slightly edited portion of that original post here:

There was a sister in our house who functioned as a de facto informant to the deacons. This was truly one of the darkest aspects of life in my GC church. A friend of mine was very frustrated with some of the things going on in the fellowship. One evening, she poured out her frustrations to me over dinner at the brothers' house. The informant overheard the discussion. Late that night or the next night (I forget the exact timing), I received a visit from two deacons who wanted to know how the disgruntled sister's words had affected my thinking. When I told them how upset and confused I was by their visit (I told them it reminded me of the Spanish Inquisition), they went back to my friend, shamed her for “confusing” me, and made her come and apologize. I can hardly overemphasize how devastating this kind of thought control was.

Other abuses were:

Undermining members' educations and potential careers. Encouraging bright young people with a future to abandon their God-given talents in exchange for mediocre, low-wage jobs so that more energy could be expended on proselytizing.

Isolation from outside influences (parents, professors, former friends regardless of religion, mature Christians from established churchs).

Odd practices regarding dating and marriage. A certain arbitrariness regarding who was allowed to pursue a relationship, and who was counseled to ignore his or her feelings of attraction to another brother or sister.

[Linda]

EAS, interesting about your church plant. The timeline is interesting to read as far as the starting of ECC is concerned, as well. It wasn't till many years in that we learned ECC was a church plant of the Ames church. Very deceptive.

Huldah, your story is so typical of the control, both past and present. Parents and students need to know this.

Wisemind, I forgot to say welcome earlier. Your post is excellent. You wrote:

"If anyone is looking for guidance on whether to join this movement, be it Evergreen, Walnut Creek, or Summitview, please run the other way. Listen to past Faithwalkers messages with a discerning ear and educate yourself on what they believe and teach you (or your kids)."

I second that. The best thing anyone can do (Josh McDowell are you listening?) is educate themselves on what GC teaches and believes. It is not normal for people to be asked to commit to a church/group/leader for life. This is not what the Bible teaches. This is not Christianity. Students/parents need to be aware of this and the best way to do that is to listen to the messages.

I know that some of the worst teachings are being removed from online sources as they are pointed out here. It is important to note that the while the worst messages are being removed, the teaching has not been corrected. But, there are enough out there still to give people a feel for what GC is about and how GC theology differs from traditional Protestant Christianity.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, ours was one of the churches written up in the infamous "Joy of Justice" issue of the Cause proganda-zine.  This episode occurred some six years after we founded the church.  Before all this happened my wife and I had left our church, then it fractured due to a dispute with Jim.  The majority in the congregation simply disbanded (to the surprise of one of the elders who thought he was going to begin his own church with the group that followed him into rebellion against Jim...NOT!) and two families stayed with the "loyal for life to GC" elder. 

Jim immediately dsipatched a team (possibly from Ames, but of that I do not have first hand knowledge) comprised of about twenty-five people to "support" the church.  When the team arrived it fired (disciplined?) the loyal-for-life elder for being inept in having allowed the church to split; they then installed their own elders.  With no job and no sympathy and no mercy, the loyal-for-life elder reluctantly left GC in disgrace and joined a missions group down south.   

The weird part is that the story they wrote up in the infamous Cause issue was a virtual fiction.  Very little of what they wrote about the incident was true or accurate.  Never trust GC to present a factual version of history.

[BTDT]

I have been wondering lately how many of the people on this forum were involved in the "bad old day," and and how many were hurt by GCx recently

GCC Silver Spring / Valley Brook Community Church, 1984 - 1993.  Yes, I was one of the "64 in 84". 

So I was there for the Bad Old Days, and the First Reform Attempt that included the weakness paper.  Left in 1993 when Valley Brook left.  VB split into 2 churches:  Oak Ridge, led by Dennis Clark and Steve Hogan, stayed with Great Commission; Valley Brook, led by Dan Baty, Steve Huhta and Rob Lamp, left GC.

Is it possible that the current problems in GCx are mainly isolated to a few churches?

I personally think so.  Some posters here, myself included, paint a much brighter picture of several GCx churches in the present.

I attended a GCM church in the area for a few years, and I didn't see any alarming leftovers of the bad old days.  They still practice a few things I don't agree with, like current pastors appointing new ones after a long period of discipleship by them...but to me, that falls into the category of "no church will be 100% perfect for me".  (I realize there's an argument to be made that this continues the "McCotter lineage", and I respect that opinion.)

-Ed-

[Linda]

Thanks for your insight BTDT/Ed. I wasn't there in the "bad old days". All my experience is post August of 1995 and ends August 2005. However, we were contacted as late as Good Friday 2012 (via snail mail at the request of John Hopler) by ECC pastors (Darling and Knox) about our posting on this forum, so I guess our departure is a work in progress on their end. There is a lot of "blurry" territory in my mind about GC's past. Especially the Maryland connection. This helps add a few pieces to the puzzle.

So, you were there when McCotter left? Did people think it was odd that he left the church entirely when he went on to "pursue business interests"? Normal people can attend a church and manage a business at the same time. Was there an unspoken thought that there were other reasons for his departure, or was everyone in the mode of not asking questions?

I have a sense that there are "two" branches of the GC tree. One, is GCC and the other would be the GCM churches (who now are called the Collegiate Church Network-CCN, or something like that). My sense is that the GCM (CCN) churches are a bit less old school and are a little more "orthodox" (small o) in their Protestant beliefs while the GCC churches adhere to much of McCotter's teaching (in that they have never distanced themselves from it or corrected it publicly).

I'm wondering if you sense that as well since you mention that the GCM church you are familiar with wasn't alarming to you. GCM (CCN) churches even go as far as having their own conference, Ignite, while GCC churches do Faithwalkers. And Faithwalkers, is definitely more "old school".

[AgathaL'Orange]

We were involved at Walnut Creek in Des Moines from 1995-2003.

[trthskr]

I was at Walnut Creek in Des Moines/Drake from 2005-2008