Where do we go from here?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Peace]

Please forgive me if I am over posting, but obviously all of this has made me ponder many things. I respectively ask this thread to be for civil dialogue with the focus on "Where we go from here?" This is NOT a thread to debate the validity of the claims. I am posting from the perspective that all claims are true and valid. My goal is NOT to fix the past, nor for everyone to be reconciled. I simply want to talk about "Where do we go from here?"

Via my local church's website (which does not hide our affiliation with GCx), I just finished reading the full history of GCx, Relationship with Jim McCotter, Project Care, Errors and Weakness Paper, the Reconciliation Report and the Accountability Process and I took a peak at the resources to pursue a Biblical reconciliation process from Peacemaker Ministries. I have read many of these documents before, as my own leaders have told me they were posted on GCx's website, but I wanted to attempt to find all the info as a new attendee might search for it.

These are my observations about the materials:
- The documents are not hidden on their website.
- The documents seem to clearly address many of the main themes throughout this forum.
- They have a process for filing a "claim" of sorts about local leaders, pastors, regional directors all the way up to "corporate."
- In my opinion, it seems like they are trying to be transparent about all of this.

Follow-up questions:
- What changes would you make to these documents?
- How else would you like to see GCx promote these documents?
- Would any of you be willing to participate in a focus group about these documents?
- Has anyone tried to follow the Reconciliation Process outlined on their website (reached out to GCC National Office)?
- Would any sort of action convince you that change has or is taking place in GCx? If so, what would that look like?
- Would anyone on this forum be willing to draft a letter or some sort of communication for me to share with my local leaders and possibly even regional and national leaders if I am to get in contact with them? I know I can tell them to visit this site, but with 13,000 posts I don't know where I would even have them begin to read.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

These are fantastic questions and I applaud all the research you did!  I would love to dig in to these to share my own perspectives. 

I'm going to give these questions the time they deserve, but in the meantime I would encourage you to look up criticisms about Peacemakers in that much of their ministry is focused on protecting churches.  Please google others, but these are two I have read before.

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/05/peacemakers-ministries-true-conflict-resolution/

https://andyjohnson2013.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/an-evaluation-of-peacemaker-ministries/

[Phoenix]

Peace,

I thank you too.  I have been on and off this forum 2-3 times over the years and each time elected to state at Evergreen.  One of the large reasons is because I believe much of what I saw in the 90s at Bloomington no longer takes place at that location.

This rekindling of accusations of course has me revisiting this decision again.  This simply may be too much for me/us.

Still, I echo your questions Peace.

[Linda]

Via my local church's website (which does not hide our affiliation with GCx), I just finished reading the full history of GCx, Relationship with Jim McCotter, Project Care, Errors and Weakness Paper, the Reconciliation Report and the Accountability Process and I took a peak at the resources to pursue a Biblical reconciliation process from Peacemaker Ministries. I have read many of these documents before, as my own leaders have told me they were posted on GCx's website, but I wanted to attempt to find all the info as a new attendee might search for it.

These are my observations about the materials:
- The documents are not hidden on their website.
- The documents seem to clearly address many of the main themes throughout this forum.
- They have a process for filing a "claim" of sorts about local leaders, pa

Just a bit of background here. In the Winter of 2005, after an all church gathering of all Evergreen locations called "Fanning the Flame" where we were told that leaving our local church is the same as divorcing our wife, I began Googling. I Googled "Great Commission Churches and cults" for the heck of it. I didn't expect to find anything. I remember the sinking feeling I got in my stomach when stuff came up. Mind you, this web site didn't exist at the time so there was not a ton of information available online. I was able to read about a "Statement of Error" that had been written in 1991. I couldn't find a copy.

In the meantime, we had been meeting with many ECC pastors about various questionable things that had been taught at leaders meetings, during church services, and at the all church gatherings. One meeting was with Brent Knox and Spencer. At this meeting, I asked about a "Statement of Error and Apology" I had seen mention of on the Internet. I honestly don't think Spencer was aware of it. Brent pondered a bit and then said something like, "Hmmm, I seem to remember a statement, but I think it was more a statement of clarification, not error. Would you like me to get you a copy?" We said yes. He never got us a copy, even though a couple weeks later we asked for it again.

In the meantime, through the Google search we came across Wellspring. (The cult recovery center in Ohio started by a former GCC elder.) My husband called Larry Pile and talked for quite a while. That's when we became aware of Larry's book "Marching to Zion" ( http://www.gcxweb.org/Books/MarchingToZion/ ) and he sent us a copy. In it was "The 1991 Statement of Error and Apology", so we were able to read it, even though Brent never got us a copy.

It should be noted that the statement of error ends with:

"If anyone has questions or concerns about this statement, or about any of the issues addressed in it, please contact a pastor at your local Great Commission church or write to:

David Bovenmyer

This statement was ratified by the pastors and national leaders of the Great Commission Association of churches on July 19, 1991. "

Clearly, Brent knew about this statement since it says that the pastors ratified it, clearly he didn't think it important enough of it to get us a copy when we asked for it. He also did not call it a statement of error and apology, but rather "clarification."

As it turns out, in the late 80's and early 90's GCC showed up on some cult watch lists. In an attempt to get off those lists, they came up with the Statement of Error and Apology.

You are correct, the documents are not now hidden from their web page. Amazingly enough, the Statement of Error and Apology materialized on the GCC site shortly after it was posted on this site:

http://www.gcxweb.org/Misc/WeaknessesPaper.aspx

Hard to not think they would rather have curious people go to their web page rather than this one:

http://www.gcxweb.org/Default.aspx

Also, regarding the name "Project Care", the first mention I ever heard of "Project Care" was a few years after gcmwarning.com began. Either they never mentioned it to the attendees, or they, in recent years, came up with a name for the time in the early '90's when they were trying (and maybe sincerely) to correct their error.

The problem is, they continued to do many of the things they apologized for.

[Peace]

Linda -

Thank you for your response. It popped up as I was just finishing reading the (quite lengthy) articles that Rebel in a Good Way sent to me which I am in the process of digesting. 

Like I have posted before, I don't argue with any bit of your testimony of your experiences with GCx. I agree, Brent should have gotten you those documents right away. I agree the way you were treated was harsh. I agree the letter written to your children was completely out of line. But I also know NOTHING can ever be done to change that, but the reality is they have apologized for those things. Please correct me if I am wrong, but haven't people tried to reach out to you?

Personally, I would be interested to actually know (and not assume) if Brent really knew about all of this and intentionally tried to keep the information from you OR if GCx had a plethora of communication issues which prevented Brent and other leaders from actually having all of this information. I am not trying to make an accuse, but logically and from experiences I have had (even recently!) with several GCx pastors, some of them just suck (for lack of a better term) at communication.

I honestly want your thoughts about what can be done now and into the future.

[Linda]

I agree the letter written to your children was completely out of line. But I also know NOTHING can ever be done to change that, but the reality is they have apologized for those things.

No, they never apologized for sending copies of the letter rebuking us to our grown children. All the Bloomington pastors names were typed on it. No one signed it. We don't know if all the pastors saw it. We don't know who was on board with sending a letter to our children calling us "unkind" and saying we had borderline defamed them when we referred to their manner of choosing elders as a type of apostolic succession.

Since one of the reasons we left was that they inserted themselves between parents and children (i.e. telling minor kids to commit to the church for life and having them take a vow to do so while away on a retreat in a different state), it was oddly satisfying that the last act they did was try to insert themselves between us and our children. It was wicked, but we knew then that we had made the right decision in leaving.

Brent was a pastor at the time of the Error Statement. Brent was also on the National Board of GCC. There is no way he didn't know about the Statement of Error and Apology. Plus, it says it was ratified by all the pastors. He knew.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but haven't people tried to reach out to you?

In 2012, 7 years after we left, Brent and Mark each wrote us letters because John Hopler (the head honcho GC guy who we hadn't heard of till after we left, didn't know GC had a head honcho) reads this forum and tries to identify people. He was all about "reconciliation". The thing is, you don't "reconcile" bad teaching, you correct it.

The issue Brent addressed was a critique I made on this forum about this sermon (at the request of a current ECC attendee).
You can listen to the sermon here and I suggest you do. If you don't have a problem with it, I can't help you.

http://www.gcxweb.org/Audio/TheSWord-08-13-2006.aspx

Brent never distanced himself from that teaching, but as I recall, they took the message off their web site. Basically that seems to be the plan. Remove bad teaching, but never publicly correct it. However, in this instance, Brent didn't really have a problem with the teaching, as I recall.

I think the teaching Mark referenced in his letter was the commitment for life. He was actually pretty humble and kind in his letter. Again, the teaching was removed, but not publicly corrected. In addition, they continue to teach commitment for life.

As far as my thoughts about what they could do in the future, I've always thought that GCC needed to evaluate their teaching and practice and correct some pretty blatant errors in their teaching. So, first correct error. To do that, they have to recognize their error. Lots of errors have been exposed on this site. After that, make amends for the pain those errors have caused others.

[Peace]

No, they never apologized for sending copies of the letter rebuking us to our grown children.
This should be done.

Telling minor kids to commit to the church for life.
This teaching has been corrected within my local church. I have asked pastors and staff, we just do not teach this anymore and won't in the future. I am actually really sensitive to this one because of personal involvement in a situation involving this. I listen for this doctrine so I can annihilate it. I'm with you that teaching commitment for life and commitment for minors is false teaching.

Brent was a pastor at the time of the Error Statement. Brent was also on the National Board of GCC. There is no way he didn't know about the Statement of Error and Apology. Plus, it says it was ratified by all the pastors. He knew.
Ok, I will leave this one alone.

In 2012, 7 years after we left, Brent and Mark each wrote us letters because ... they chose to reach out to you after learning about your issues with their teaching perhaps might be a better way to phrase it then "blaming" John Hopler. I mean, isn't your voice being heard one of the main goals of this forum? I'd count this as a win.

http://www.gcxweb.org/Audio/TheSWord-08-13-2006.aspx
I'll listen to this when I have the chance.

They took the message off their web site.
Couldn't this be taken as a step in the right direction rather than a negative?

Basically that seems to be the plan. Remove bad teaching, but never publicly correct it.
This is where I completely disagree with you. I have watched bad teaching be corrected. Goodness, I have walked up to my pastor after a message and have said I disagree with xyz and we have discussed it and at times we have had a difference in opinion, but other times I have watched them announce a correction in a following message. Again, I cannot say this happens at every GCx church, but I have watched it happen locally.

As far as my thoughts about what they could do in the future, I've always thought that GCC needed to evaluate their teaching and practice and correct some pretty blatant errors in their teaching. So, first correct error. To do that, they have to recognize their error. Lots of errors have been exposed on this site. After that, make amends for the pain those errors have caused others.
Practically, what does this mean because I think attempts have been made but it seems nothing is going to ever be good enough...

[Digital Lynch Mob]

I'm mostly just lurking on this, but Linda I agree. There were completely inappropriate things said and done in some of the cases you highlighted - just saying.

Does this quote resonate with anyone? in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity

Why not more liberty and charity?

[Linda]

About the letter sent to our grown children.

I've always felt that if ECC ever understood the error of their theology, an apology would come. But, frankly, an apology without understanding and correcting their bad theology would be meaningless to me. It may surprise you, but we actually care about a lot of these people and their families. I don't hold anything they did (including sending those letters) against them. They don't know better.

Ironically, I just found this while looking over the Error Statement:

"Concerning a member who wishes to leave a church that is part of our association, we are committed to expressing our appreciation, both verbally and in a letter, for that individual's service to the Lord while part of the church, as well as the hope that God will continue to use them in the future. In addition we will do all we can to make their departure and transition a comfortable one."

Well, that didn't happen, did it?!

I believe they still teach commitment for life at national conferences. They certainly have not corrected that bad teaching publicly.

About the letters in 2012, they were an a attempt at "reconciliation". Again, we have nothing personally against these men. We disagree with their teaching. They did not publicly correct their bad teaching. Removing bad teaching without correcting it publicly is not a good thing for the people who have been misled by the bad teaching.

And by bad teaching, I am talking about Lordship of Christ issues (no, you don't give the controls of your life to your pastor, that's not what Hebrews 13:17 means), the authority of the Scripture (not Scripture and Scripture as interpreted by a pastor, that is NOT Protestant theology that is Catholic theology), a proper view of the role of a pastor (no, the pastor is not the head of the Church like the husband is the head of the wife, Christ is the head of the Church), the role of Holy Spirit (no, the pastor doesn't control where you go to church, who you marry, where or if you go to school, where you live).

As far as the future steps, a good place to begin might be the Error Statement. They are still doing a lot of that stuff. They shouldn't do that stuff.

What isn't helpful is private apologies for bad teaching and practice without public correction of the teaching.

[Peace]

And by bad teaching, I am talking about Lordship of Christ issues (no, you don't give the controls of your life to your pastor, that's not what Hebrews 13:17 means), the authority of the Scripture (not Scripture and Scripture as interpreted by a pastor, that is NOT Protestant theology that is Catholic theology), a proper view of the role of a pastor (no, the pastor is not the head of the Church like the husband is the head of the wife, Christ is the head of the Church), the role of Holy Spirit (no, the pastor doesn't control where you go to church, who you marry, where or if you go to school, where you live).

Not one of these things is taught publicly or privately at my church. I would've left a looooooooooong time ago if they were.

[Linda]

But they have been taught by your national leaders at national conferences in recent years and never corrected.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Yes.  Go listen to Fatihwalkers messages and usually there are a few every single year that are bad.  We used to track them here to see if changes were being made,  but they weren’t.  We kind of gave up.  You can also listen to sermons on many many GCx church sites. 

[Peace]

Every conference or church I've ever attended has had a few bad ones. Pastoral messages are not meant to be taken as the literal word of God or the authoritative interpretation of it, like I have stated before, any pastor at any church is giving commentary on the Bible.

[trthskr]

Peace,

I think the issue here is that bad teaching had been the norm vs the exception.   (no, I couldn’t bring myself to listen to faithwalkers messages without finding myself in a fetal position).

Most of us on here aren’t just sitting here bitter and bi*^%ing because we are bored- there are a lot of hurting people and we use this forum to help us heal and to help us feel like there was actually a purpose for all of it if we are able to help newly freed church members.

Never once did I see any bad teaching corrected.  Correction would’ve looked more like, Hey, I know I told you all to vote for Mike Huckabee from the pulpit even though it’s illegal and we should’ve lost our tax exempt status for it...instead we just pretended it didn’t happen, shut down any talk of the news article that came out, etc.

Instead of opening up and admitting that it’s wrong to tell someone they CANT date (based on their own beliefs, not biblically based at all)- you just openly shame anyone who chooses to do so anyways.

I PROMISE you I was never told anything about the peace maker thing or whatever it was called, but it was in place when I left. And I did have several meetings with leaders when I chose to leave GCx.  To claim that they offer this service or program is absolute garbage- if they don’t even MENTION it when someone is in the process of leaving.  What might have been helpful is mentioning the recovery center I could’ve gone to and gotten help instead of feeling like a crazy person for close to 5 years

[Peace]

trthskr,

Thank you for your post. I do not believe people are sitting here bitter and bi*^%in because they are bored. I have tried to communicate that I completely agree that hurts and false teaching has occurred in GCx's past and at times is still occurring. I guess I just disagree that all of this is "normal" within GCx. I would categorize myself in the very involved category (so maybe that makes me a lunatic).

I have been a lurker here for many years. Like I have said in previous posts, I am very much a part of some of these testimonies. I experienced many of these hurts first hand. I really do see how people have gotten hurt at my local church. I've also been extremely involved intentionally to try to address some of these issues and I have seen "sorrowful repentance, a sincere desire to make things right, a pause in ministry when needed, apologies made and resulting reform." 

You are not wrong or crazy about either of the examples you mentioned. Goodness, I have had to personally repent of pushing my opinions and thoughts onto others. Again, I just don't think GCx is to blame for alllllllllll the things. I see where that connection is made because of the testimonies throughout this forum. I just think it's rather unfair to assume they are still happening across all of GCx when I know for a fact (at least those two examples) are not being practiced at my local church. Side-note: I've always hated the "swerver" message and it has pretty much died at my church for various reasons.

I don't know when they named the program "Project Care" and formally recognized it as a program, but I agree, it should have been mentioned when you left. Anyways, I don't think you or anyone else here are crazy. I just long to be able to do something with all of this. Maybe it is futile as some have suggested, but I still hold onto hope.

[trthskr]

Peace,

I suppose just keep fighting the good fight then if you think you can make a difference.  I commend you for that.  But I think you’d find that Church is a little bit more enjoyable when you DON’T have to correct false teaching on your own 😉

I appreciate that you are trying to mend fences and all...but I’ll be honest with you; I don’t think that anyone here is going to come back.  Or forget what happened.  Forgiveness might occur; but it’s difficult to forget when we see from our friends who are still involved that the same issues are still alive and well.  I’ve been a Christian since childhood but there were new Christians I went to school with who wanted to “Shepard” me because they were somehow better than me because they had been in THAT church for longer.  The elitist attitude isn’t going anywhere.

Unfortunately the sincere people who crossover to this forum to defend GCx all have the same things to say.  “Yes, I’ve seen this happen but....”.

I was involved for only a few years and I WASNT one to judge anyone who wasn’t part of the church, but I felt sick every time I heard someone in our church with this viewpoint.  Hint: it was often.  I think the church was built with an elitist attitude (we are the best church, come here and die) and until there is some major humbling of leadership that will always prevail.  Sorry 😐

[Peace]

Trthskr,

I don’t feel like I am correcting false teaching on a regular basis at my local church. Who knows. Maybe the route to suggest to my leaders is to leave GCx? I don’t know. I’m sure they would still be “tied” to GCx and Jim McCotter no matter what they do.

My goal is not to fix the past, have anyone come back or forget the past. Not my goal at all. I don’t want to be naive to the past. Like I have said, I was part of some of this past. I was wrong. But I have seen change and think it’s worth it for the many good people trying to do the right thing at my local church.

[Free in Christ]

Peace,
I have thought about what I think would be a healthy next step for the movement as a whole. (Note: I am willing to respond to you because of the respect you have shown on this site. I will not be responding to any comments from others unless there is a similar "safety" to them.)

My assumption, and I could be wrong, is that the last time any issues were collectively, publicly addressed was in 1991. As many could attest to, these issues continued past 1991. Some of the more gross errors have been tamed down, for sure, but issues have still existed that go beyond the average church issues. (I could list several from the last five to ten years, but I won't as you have stated that you are going to grant that claims are valid.)

I think a good and healthy next step for GCC, could be a follow-up to that 1991 statement, which was issued 27 years ago, almost a "state of the church" address, to both current members and former members. We are no longer part of the flock, but the "us and them" treatment of those of us who have left needs to stop and are indicative of the problems. I think it would go a long way, if national leaders, as well as applicable local leaders would acknowledge that the statement in 1991 was a first step, but that things have been a process, and they are still in that process of growing. I think a clear, unequivocal apology for some of the errors from 1991 to present would go along way. (By unequivocal I mean not an apology that says things like, "If people felt this way, we're sorry" kind of thing.) So far, I have not seen any acknowledgment of wrongs past 1991. I do believe GCC has grown a lot - I've seen it. But I still believe they have issues that they are growing in. If leaders could humbly admit that the hurts of ex members are valid (no more explaining away past hurts with ad hominem attacks like "these are bitter, hurt, immature people") and that they are gradually trying to improve culture, that would be a good start - along with examples of how they are doing that. I think a public apology like this is necessary because many people have been negatively impacted who were not directly asked to leave or hushed up. (i.e. I think there are people who are owed an apology whom they wouldn't know to contact.)

Here's a blog series from about five years ago from a GCC church in Colorado: http://summitview.com/blog/entryid/224/an-introduction-to-the-myths-of-summitview. In this post, the pastors acknowledge that certain myths exist in the church. (These myths relate to all of this in that they are myths about what you have to "look like" to belong in this particular church, and are tied to some of the larger issues.) I applaud the pastors for being willing to debunk these myths (although I don't think they really did in several cases). However, in their approach, they never take responsibility for the perpetuation of these myths. They acknowledge their presence, but not their origin. Where culture comes from is a tricky thing, but in this case, we do have precedence specifically for where this culture/these myths came from. It's been seen throughout GCC congregations throughout the country for decades, and that is no coincidence. In this post (http://summitview.com/blog/entryid/234/The-Myths-of-Summitview-Faith-Fathers-and-Homeschooling) , the authors give examples of where the particular myth on homeschooling originated (see points 1-4). However, these are all positive examples of how the "myths" developed, based on Scriptural understandings - there is no responsibility taken for the negative origins of these myths and how they have been perpetuated (i.e. a legalistic culture that confused principles with commands and made conforming necessary for belonging, as recorded in the 1991 paper). Responsibility isn't owned for the fact that families who didn't homeschool felt like outsiders or second-class. A family or individual who read these posts who felt judged/dismissed/sidelined by these "myths" would find no balm in these words or explanations; potentially quite the opposite. 

I think leadership needs to take responsibility and own the fact that they are responsible for the culture in their churches, that they have been a part of perpetuating unhealthy culture, and that they are/want to take steps to address these issues.

Also, I think a public apology to any family who left whose friends were subsequently told not to talk to them would be more than appropriate and far past due. An apology to any people who were told not to talk to leaving families/friends would also be appropriate. (Perhaps there are some extreme cases in which recommending no communication is appropriate, but the majority of instances I have seen of this are families who had criticisms of the church who were subsequently silenced.)

I think GCC leaders who are willing to communicate publicly with honesty, humility, responsibility, ownership and a willingness to listen would go a long way. 

[Peace]

Wholeheartedly, I agree with everything you posted. Again, I know this will not fix the past, correct false teaching, or bring people back - none of that is my goal. I do think what you wrote should be done and is long overdue. Thank you for so clearly communicating that.

[Free in Christ]

Thank you, Peace. I am encouraged to hear the positive changes you have experienced in your local congregation.