Wolfs?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[banished]

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

    6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
2 Timothy 3:1-9

This describes most of the GC leaders I know. Which is why I will have nothing to do with them. Call a wolf a wolf.

[Miss Current]

Matthew 7:15-23

"Watch out for false prophets.  They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.  By their fruit you will recognize them.  Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?  Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.  A good tree cannot bear good fruit.  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'  Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you.  Away from me, you evildoers!' ...."

I have often wondered if Matthew 7:15-23 was applicable to Jim McCotter...whose influence in starting GC continues to this day with existing elders.

Matthew 13:22

The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.

I have had a handful of people who knew Jim at one time mention Matthew 13:22 as applying to him.

Matthew 6:24

No one can serve two masters.  Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.  You cannot serve both God and Money.

I wonder if Jim switched masters.  I have yet to have ANYONE tell me ONE thing Jim has done for the kingdom of God since he left GC in late 1986...not one person...not one thing.  I am still looking for any fruit...even the blog site on Jim has challenged Jim to answer the question himself.  (And yes Jim has read it...I know for a FACT!)  You would think the people who "defend" Jim would also be able to answer this question too.  I will keep searching.

[Escape From Summitview]

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
2 Timothy 3:1-9

This describes most of the GC leaders I know. Which is why I will have nothing to do with them. Call a wolf a wolf.

Most of that verse wouldn't apply to the pastors I dealt with. For instance, I don't think any of them "worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women."  And they probably also weren't brutal (at least physically), or without self-control. I think most of them meant well and thought they were doing God's will, however misguided and spiritually abusive the end result of their actions was.

I think a verse that better describes the leaders I knew would be:

For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. -- Romans 10:2

There seems to be a serious lack of understanding about many important biblical concepts in GComm, and coupled with that they are PROUD of their lack of knowledge and misunderstandings. For instance, a couple years back Rick Whitney was preaching at Faithwalkers, and he said something along the lines of how the movement was 'never really that big' on spiritual gifts. He then makes a remark about how decades later he still doesn't have any clue as to what his spiritual gifts are; to which the audience laughs. Part of his point was valid, that we should follow God even if we don't know what our specific spiritual gifts are, but I really would hope that a teacher of the Word for over 20 years would at least have more to say on spiritual gifts than that.

Hebrews 5:13-14 talks about the difference between someone who is knowledgeable in the very fundamental basics of Christianity, and someone who has graduated from milk to solid food (the more advanced concepts of the Word.) At GComm I felt like the only messages I was receiving were milk. Evangelism pep-talks, obey your leaders sermons, and very rudimentary "seeker friendly" messages on faith and God. I don't even recall a single sermon on the Holy Spirit.

[banished]

Most of that verse wouldn't apply to the pastors I dealt with. For instance, I don't think any of them "worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women." And they probably also weren't brutal (at least physically), or without self-control.

You may be right, that part of the verse may not apply to the pastors you know. I can tell you that it does apply to at least one pastor I know, from my first hand experience.

[sistanchrist]

One thing on this topic I have struggled with, is that much of the GComm church that I left bears good fruit.  With their focus on evangelism, there is a large number of people who do come to accept Christ as savior.  What happens after that is a whole other story, but none the less that is good fruit.  I have sat with those verses for so long because of this fruit that is seen.  They were also some of the verses that I was confronted with when I first started challenging my small group leader and mentioning that I wanted to leave.  They kept me there for another semester.  I still don't know how to handle the good fruit that I have seen from the lives of the pastors that even elsewhere in this site have done some things that put my jaw on the ground in disbelief.  I know that being thankful and celebrating that fruit is the response that is warranted, I just can't help but wonder if that good fruit is then left in an environment where it has no other choice but to rot on the vine, becoming toxic.

[theresearchpersona]

One thing on this topic I have struggled with, is that much of the GComm church that I left bears good fruit.  With their focus on evangelism, there is a large number of people who do come to accept Christ as savior.  What happens after that is a whole other story, but none the less that is good fruit.  I have sat with those verses for so long because of this fruit that is seen.  They were also some of the verses that I was confronted with when I first started challenging my small group leader and mentioning that I wanted to leave.  They kept me there for another semester.  I still don't know how to handle the good fruit that I have seen from the lives of the pastors that even elsewhere in this site have done some things that put my jaw on the ground in disbelief.  I know that being thankful and celebrating that fruit is the response that is warranted, I just can't help but wonder if that good fruit is then left in an environment where it has no other choice but to rot on the vine, becoming toxic.

Hi!

If you read Luke 6 it tells us that their fruit is their words...I wouldn't mind applying it to lives/works also, however first its' their words. Christ constantly says to abide in his word, teach his word, tells Peter "feed my sheep", what? His words. Think about it, Mormons produce "good lives" but a false gospel. Scientologists produce "good lives", atheists do, and etc...but Christ says those that abide in his words...

GCM says its works are their fruits...but this is just works righteousness. Works are a fruit...but GCM is open about producing these through human means...Paul warns us about trying to perfect according to the flesh what was started in the Spirit. This isn't hard to see when you study where they get teachings, and what they teach when they read scripture.

That's the fruit that's meant...scripture interprets scripture better than anything else. See luke 6 for the whole context, and get all the way to Luke 6:45.

Hope that helps miss Sis.

P. S. Jim couldn't have switched Masters, could he? When it says those who are Christ's endure. Jim claimed to be an apostle, did he not? Paul warns of false ones. And the Word tells us of ministers of satan that transform themselves into ministers of light: and of teachers who are deceived and being deceived, and of God giving-over many to be deceived; thus it's no suprise that you have a hard time miss Sis., I do too.

And as for fruit becoming toxic...I've cried about brothers and sisters as I've watched them grow in worldliness as they starve on GCM teachings, and as GCM teaches them to "be cool" to the world and "learn to think as they do" (bible calls the world's thinking "futility of the mind"). See Jeremiah 10:2 as well. I've watched as gems turn dark and cold...and it's why I haven't left yet, I want to be there and fight to pull them back and re-heat with God's Word...which'll probably hurt, but I can't just give up on them. I abhor "leaders" who lead a "church" that prostitutes itself through marketing...and teaches its members to follow this way. Those are surely wolves--and we're never told to actually dialogue with wolves, but rather fend them off and throw them out. I hope the leadership of GCM does read this. I'd rather see real repentence...starting with stepping-down by these men who are so deceived, deceiving, and by their own admission unqualified. They have to face God over all this; better they repent publicly before they have to do that, and be publicly correct so the sheep be corrected and edified.

[Daisy]

One thing on this topic I have struggled with, is that much of the GComm church that I left bears good fruit. With their focus on evangelism, there is a large number of people who do come to accept Christ as savior. What happens after that is a whole other story, but none the less that is good fruit. I have sat with those verses for so long because of this fruit that is seen.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control.  Against such things there are no laws.

Philippians 1:15-18
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.  The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.  The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely..But what does it matter?  The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true Christ is preached.  And because of this I will rejoice.

[lone gone]

    Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: the former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.
     What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.


This verse is a great help in understanding what to do with your former GC leaders.... leave them to God to take care of. Quit investing so much of your time in continually rebuking someone who is trying to rebuke you back. It is my understanding of God's will that you "have nothing more to do with such people".

And my understanding of scripture is that  anyone can fall away from the truth. I know that GC subsribes tot he theological understanding "Once saved, Always saved".  They taught this, and also taught that if anyone fell away, that they hadn't been saved at all.  What a way to look at the person next to you.... ( Hmmm, I wonder if they are really saved or not?)

I can certainly see how that stand would lead someone to sub-consciously treat anyone who wasn't following the "truth as taught by the pastor" to be dealt with in a far less gentle manner.

[Linda]

Larry Pile addressed the Philippians verses on a different thread.

http://gcmwarning.com:8080/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=9

[theresearchpersona]

I know that GC subsribes tot he theological understanding "Once saved, Always saved". They taught this, and also taught that if anyone fell away, that they hadn't been saved at all.

Actually that's an interesting thing to bring up. GC, depending, teaches "once saved always saved", but with inconsistancies because other verses destroy their formulation of it. "Once Saved Always Saved" is what you're hearing when, say, [a leader] is talking about a brother who once...[this and that] but who much later left his wife/kids in an affair, divorced them [yes, "them" is appropriate for this], now lives in sin etc.. but has not lost his salvation, "It couldn't be!", but "only his rewards". This is neo-evangelical "comfort ourselves gospel" and includes the "Eternal Security" clause.


Then, however, there is the older doctrines (near forgotten) on this. Jesus does say, explicitly, he will keep his sheep. It says the saints "endure". They persevere: the Holy Spirit is deposited as their "guarantee"/"surety".

The idea that there are many unsaved who claim to be comes from the fact that God says among many he is sending strong delusion (1), that Jesus said he'll say to many, that say "Lord, Lord [list of wonderful things they did in His name", "depart from me, I never knew you, ye that work lawlessness" (2), and that the word itself warns us to examine ourselves to see whether we be in the faith (3); that's the importance of much doctrinal stuff: when someone thinks they are at all sanctified by their own works, rather than by Christ alone, they deny Him--as Paul wrote, if righteosness could come by any law, or work, it would have been by God's Law, but all are concluded under sin; if righteousness is by works Christ is dead in vain. However faith without works is dead: i.e. it is unevidenced of "the faith" that is the gift of God: those not born of God won't have it...yet they may even appear to bear "fruit".

As for this:

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

GC is in love with itself and full of corporate pride and transforms itself and its past as if it was any good or full of great purity to boast; it is abusive; it has encouraged and still subtly does encourage disobedience towards parents...if not with just pastors through the "small groups" full of youth and no elders or real authority (all the time)...is full of leaven and lots of worldliness (when you have teachers teaching people to "be cool" for the world to lure people to Christ {denying God's sovereignty and using a method other than God's, the gospel, "the power of God unto..."}; who else felt forgotten when they left? I haven't quite left, but I notice that I, or anyone else practical, who leaves even just a bit is often forgotten quickly (or their absence is never noticed); GC slanders every sheep crying out "stop hurting me"; its leaders aren't un-often also without control; it brutally slanders its critics...and so on. Particularly, from what I've seen, this part is appropriate: "having a form of godliness but denying its power": GC says/teaches that we need their accountability, involvement, etc...or we'll head back into sin, fall, fail, etc.: strike 1; it says anyone who leaves will: Strike 2. And I know this might "not apply where [so and so] was", but I'm giving the overall and seeming "sure" things in GC which don't seem to go away or stay away long even if they're things put-down and fought against, but keep coming-up.

Also, notice, "they are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women": IT'S NOT SAYING THEY DO THIS PHYSICALLY! It's giving a principle to apply, to watch out for.

These are all reasons why I'm increasingly leary not just of GC, but many who employ the same methods/tactics; Jesus warned about those who tried climbing up the wall rather than entering through the door, right? those are imposters...and we don't want people being emotionally taken captive and lead astray, or manipulated into thinking "I'm a Christian", and then finding out the hard way when they meet God. It's like when sistanchrist writes:

One thing on this topic I have struggled with, is that much of the GComm church that I left bears good fruit. With their focus on evangelism, there is a large number of people who do come to accept Christ as savior.

Yet Christ said something else explicit..."you did not choose me, but I chose you". Evangelical lingo we're all heavily affected by is "choose Christ" or "accept Christ": but no one does this according to Jesus. I notice a lot of "testimony" is to "how cool these people were", "it was so cool there was a pastor right there sitting in a bar!!!", "I found Christ, fell away, then found it empty and meaningless and came back" (i.e. to the purposefulness they were not getting...not to Christ in repentence because of conviction of sin against God to sorrow over and mourn for hurting Him), "GC this, GC that...[where's Jesus in all of this:? or the Biblical untwisted, uncool, obedient {not rebellious or deviant} Jesus the Bible talks about being "obedient unto death"]; "this movement", "these people"..."greatest in the world"..."commitment. to. our. ideological. social-movement. phenomena.": all based on promises, programs, etc. increasingly sold to these churches by men who GUARANTEE the results...that we're seeing.

Let's put it this way. When Benny Hinn gets on stage and causes a crowd to fall over it isn't the Holy Spirit, it isn't godly: it's called "mesmerism": it's not a magical thing but a medical tool co-opted to subjegate a crowd: it's very easy to duplicate and use on people. When guys like Rick Warren etc. are telling people "if I had to start all over I'd start with a killer band" there's a reason: the same that rock stars brag about in how they figured-out with music they can effect control/responses from people. Or with women: I'm careful with sisters because I notice you can emotional bond to someone (or they to you) without any real love where you communicating, esteeming one another's thoughts/etc. in agreement, and so on: GC has a bunch of gals running-about happy because they feel (1) safe with the men (2) like they have a purpose because GC has designed things to make people feel that way (3) romanticized because of the teaching/atmosphere; somebody on here once mentioned that GC has a very "romantic" view of God/scripture.

ALL these things are...predictable: reproducible...lab-refined and designed; where's the Holy Spirit in all this? GC just takes the ideas from others (though it seems like the Herschel+Jim team was originally coming-up with lots of their own ideas) and implements them without any real knowledge or understanding as to their premises, intent, purposes, and consequences...spiritually: they know very well what they're promised to do. Take your membership "commitments", or "covenants", or whatever sometime and compare it to the one in "Purpose Driven Church" and other page previous you'll see Warren saying the reason for them is "you can decide the kind of people that stay at YOUR church": and now there's thousands of Christians being kicked-out because, they say, "Jesus said not to swear", and James 5:12 warns us not to be brought back under that judgement. GC isn't the only group where the mature/ing all leave...neither is SGM: it's happening in mass exoduses where the criteria you can predict that will cause a disaffection or exodus or throw-out is obedience to God, not heresy: which is firmly secure within the "Churches".

This kind of thing is making me re-question what I'm working toward now, and maybe entering studying for theological purposes and also cult-dynamics and manipulation/etc.. New "Evangelcalism" stated "it's the message not method that matters", however even the Word states the method does...and even gives it. I don't know...there's real needs and you all, and I, are just few of very many feeling quite abused etc..

Thanks for re-posting the "have nothing to do with them". I'm preparing to tell friends/etc. about what I have to do and severing from any GC involvement (almost there anyways).

And thanks for the posts on all this...and putting up with me. Writing it out really helps to think things over...and putting it up lets ya'll tell me when "wrong", or "think it's wrong", etc..

Till later.

[lone gone]

Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: the former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely,

Yes, Paul was talking about how some people were preaching Christ in order that his imprisonment would go badly and he'd suffer more. He also pointed out how some sincere preachers were causing the same result.... that their preaching caused Paul to suffer more.

Paul wrote about this to explain HIS reaction to their actions... he rejoiced that the good news of a Redeemer for sinful mankind was being spread.

I ALSO believe that Paul's words , given by the Holy Spirit, can teach us about our situation, not just Paul's.  

Paul's language is plain... he points out that a man's motive is what is important.  People do good, even pious, things but their motive is perverse. They are seeking to please God in order to feel good about themselves.  They preach out of envy, or selfish ambition.

They preach for  success. If there is no success, they assume they re out of God's will but if there is success( measured by numbers)then they believe that they are pleasing God and being blessed as a consequence.

Paul's take on the situation?  He couldn't invest any energy in trying to ferret out the motives of the preachers... he simply gave it into God's hands and rejoiced.

I have found that everyone has wrong motives. That is the nature of our humanity and that is what we need saving from. God redeems humanity and it's paltry efforts on His behalf so that whether we sin or not, He alone is glorified. ( see Romans)

[Linda]

Just to clarify, I have never questioned the motives of any GC leader. I think they sincerely believe what they are saying.

There seems to be some sort of odd GC code among the leaders that goes something like this:

"If you question something a leader teaches, you are questioning his motives."

Quit investing so much of your time in continually rebuking someone who is trying to rebuke you back.

I'm not sure what you are referring to by this, but I don't post here to correct or rebuke current GC leaders. My husband and I spent many hours over many months patiently talking with many GC leaders about some breathtakingly unsound teaching. The bottom line is, they acknowledged that the teaching was bad, refused to correct it publicly, and we left.

I post here as a warning to others who may be in the dark about the organization. I know what it is like to be in the dark.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about.

An ECC leader, who currently sits on the board of GC told a gathering of all ECC churches (probably 1,200 people or so) that we (the listening congregation) were his (the pastor's) bride and that we were meeting in the house of another man's bride (since we were renting a megachurch facility for the event).

There is one groom. And, he's not a pastor. He bought the bride with his blood.

There is one bride. And she isn't defined by what building she meets in.

The image of Christ the groom and the Church as the bride is profound. For a pastor to step in and refer to himself as the groom is blasphemy.

We immediately met with one of our pastors (the man who spoke was from a different ECC church). Our pastor agreed that this "didn't set right with him." He also said, when asked why it wasn't corrected that to correct the man would be "to question his motives."

We went "up a step" to the "head" (I know they say they don't have one, but they do) pastor of our church, who agreed that this teaching was off, but that the man speaking was an "evangelist" and sometimes he got carried away with his words.

In spite of these two leaders agreeing that the teaching was off, the teaching was considered so wonderful that it was distributed free of charge to any who did not attend. No clarification or correction was ever made.

Interestingly enough, the man who spoke those words was the final leader we spoke with (even though he was not a pastor at our location). He said that he would prefer that we left rather than to point out and try to change things. I brought up the matter of what he said at that all church gathering and he never backed down or corrected it.

The bottom line is that we gave the leaders plenty of chances over months to make corrections to their unsound teaching. They chose not to.

We no longer try to correct them. You are right, that is up to God. I do feel some sort of obligation to sound a warning, mostly to others.

So, here's my warning.

If you are the pastor who said that, you need to repent and publicly correct it.

If you are a pastor who allowed that to be said and go uncorrected, you need to repent and publicly correct it.

If you are a member of the congregation, you need to know the talk is "plurality", but the reality is that leaders don't get corrected.

During the conversation with the man who said we were his bride, I mentioned that elders agreed that his teaching at that meeting was off, but covered for him because they didn't want to question his motives. I also said it seemed to me that an elder could have done something like have an affair and elders would cover it up so the congregation would never know. This man said, "I'm sure it's happened." (I have no idea what he was talking about when he said that, by the way, but remain astonished that a GC board member would say something like that).

So, plurality doesn't work if unsound teaching is given a pass and major moral failures on the part of a pastor are covered up.

[lone gone]

lone gone wrote:
Quit investing so much of your time in continually rebuking someone who is trying to rebuke you back.


I'm not sure what you are referring to by this,

I am referring in general terms to anyone who is doing the actions that I described.

I see some here and some not here who continue to "continually rebuke someone who is trying to rebuke you back" by going to current GC/GCM leaders, or publically challanging them to a dialog.

There is an active dialog attempted that serves no purpose except to bring shame to the church.Outsiders can see the actions of opposing Christians and it brings no glory to God. It goes against Paul's inspired teaching of  "Having nothing more to do with such a person".

Paul knew the difference between spreading the gospel such that he was guilty of no man's blood and continuing to harass someone who was not accepting the gospel.

He also knew what to do with those in opposition. Teach the truth, and when you encounter opposition deal with it. One thing that he didn't do was to look for the opposition to confront it. He let God dictate the circumstances of the encounters.

[Linda]

There is an active dialog attempted that serves no purpose except to bring shame to the church.Outsiders can see the actions of opposing Christians and it brings no glory to God.

Two things. First, when a pastor tells a gathering of believers that they are his (the pastor's) bride, the Gospel is not being preached. This is heresy. So, the verses in Philippians do not apply.

Second, for a pastor to tell the gathered believers that they are his bride does not bring glory to the groom. When believers stand up for the truth of the gospel, God is glorified. When men attempt to put themselves in the place of God through ignorance of the truth or purposeful deception God is not glorified.

I was told by a pastor of 25 years to expose what needs to be exposed for the sake of others and remember that God will look after His reputation.

[lone gone]

OK, I got it. They got it. You warned them. Move on.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I don't think they got it!