Y'all are just critical, don't you know?

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[AgathaL'Orange]

http://gccweb.org/about/history/accountability
This link leads to THIS gem of reconciliation and humility:


RESPONDING TO CRITICS WITH HUMILITY
John Hopler, Great Commission Churches Director
As servants of Jesus Christ, we will be criticized. What does the Bible teach us
on how to respond to critics? The answer is simple: Humility.
From Jesus’ words on the Sermon on the Mount, we see that God wants us to
show humility in three ways:
First, God wants us to be humble before Him by learning how we can be more
pleasing to Him. Jesus said “First, take the log out of you own eye..” (Matthew 7:5.) We
need to ask ourselves, “Is any of the criticism valid? Is there anything that God wants us
to learn?” As an example of this, our movement of churches we went through a process
in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s (described as Project Care) in which pastors made a
concerted effort to listen to concerns expressed by members and former members of their
churches. This led to the writing of the Weakness Paper in 1991—a paper that was part
of a good faith effort by our movement of churches to “take the log out of our own eye.”
Second, God wants us to be humble before men by seeking reconciliation. Jesus
said “first be reconciled to your brother...” (Matthew 5:24) God wants us to take the
first step and pursue peace with our brothers. We are to seek to understand, then be
understood. As an example, in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s pastors in Great
Commission spent many hours pursuing peace with individuals who had offenses or
concerns. As a result, misunderstandings were cleared up, apologies were given and
forgiveness was extended. Apart from a few exceptions, there was reconciliation with
every person who was willing to talk through their offenses or concerns.
Third, God wants us to be humble before the world when mistreated. Jesus said
“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of
evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is
great...” (Matthew 5:11,12) and “Pray for those who persecute you.” (Matthew 5:44)
We realize not everyone will think well of us. Jesus was criticized. So is everyone who
serves Him. So what does God want us to do when unfairly criticized? He wants us to
rejoice before Him and to pray for our accusers. As an example, one lesson we learned
through Project Care is that some individuals have a critical nature, no matter how much
you seek peace with them. We also became reconciled to the fact that not everyone will
go through a Biblical and honoring process of reconciliation. Instead of humbly seeking
peace in a private setting or finding out the true facts behind some accusations, some
people have chosen to publicly spread unfair characterizations of pastors and Christians
in our movement. So, like Jesus instructed us, we rejoice before God and pray for our
critics. And we make it our aim to continue to advance the kingdom of God.
Through all of this, we must remember that our reputation matters little. What
matters is God’s glory. Jesus said, “Let your light shine before men in such a way that
they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew
5:16) What people think of us or our church or Great Commission is not important.
Rather, our desire is only that God is loved and worshipped through Jesus Christ His Son.
When criticism comes our way, may God grant us humble hearts as we seek to
serve God and people. And amidst unfair criticism, may God accelerate our efforts to
spread the message of the love of Jesus Christ to a world in desperate need of a Savior.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I struggle with this because this makes it sound like if you have a "real" concern, bring it up and it will be addressed.  But these are not small little concerns over things like the color of carpeting or a rude pastor, they are HUGE issues.  And some of these big issues are recorded and given out online so it's not like THOSE things they are trying to hide.  I don't get it.

Here's an excerpt from the apology letter in 1991

A third example of our failure to clearly distinguish between commands and principles concerns the area of dating. Many of us in the early years of our churches encouraged young men and women to refrain from dating until they had a fairly strong conviction that God was leading them toward marriage to a particular individual. This had some very positive results including the lack of many problems that casual dating can cause (temptation to immorality, trauma and strife because of romantic breakups, distraction from a devotion to holiness and service to the Lord) and contributed to the formation of many, many strong marriages. However, it also had negative results including alienating believers who did not share our preference and causing some who did to develop a bad attitude toward Christians who dated. It is our present understanding that discouraging casual dating was a preference of many of us leaders and not a command or even a principle of Scripture, although there are many principles that may be used to support the preference. We believe that individuals are free to have different preferences as to how serious they want to be before they begin dating someone. Pastors may suggest or encourage their own personal preference concerning dating, as well as their reasons for that preference, but they should be careful to clearly communicate that it is simply their preference, and that others may be equally valid.

So when they say Swerver is "God's Best" and they want you to ask permission or "counsel" before pursuing a relationship... this isn't a command?  How is saying something is "God's Best" not a command to a sincere believer intent on following God.  Of course, a sincere believer in that situations would follow the Swerver form or relationships.  Or Non-Swerver I guess.  I mean, it's not like they are trying to hide it.  So do they expect people to continually go to the main office (which he just said isn't really a main office) and complain about each and every sermon too?

[Linda]

As an example, one lesson we learned through Project Care is that some individuals have a critical nature, no matter how much you seek peace with them. We also became reconciled to the fact that not everyone will go through a Biblical and honoring process of reconciliation. Instead of humbly seeking peace in a private setting or finding out the true facts behind some accusations, some people have chosen to publicly spread unfair characterizations of pastors and Christians in our movement.

I know what he means. It reminded me of something I once heard a pastor say.

There’s a guy in the church in Ft. Collins, actually I think it was somebody from the Rock in Ft. Collins, and for whatever reason, he has some offenses with the church…I think he had probably crossed some lines that he shouldn’t have…and was approached on that and became disgruntled with the church…and so sometimes when people are approached on things like that they repent…sometimes when we’re confronted on our sin, it makes us really angry and that was this guy’s response and so what he did was he created a web site that talks about our church, specifically the Summitview churches, but then also our group of churches GCM/GCAC and then it just basically slanders us and talks about, oh, alleged abuses of the church and almost kind of like cultish type feeling thing.. in fact on one of the last pages of the web site, it talks about here’s these books that you can turn to if you need help out of a cult…he got hurt and I think he’s trying to hurt back. Hurt people, hurt people.

So, I'm really glad to see that they are all for finding out the facts behind accusations before spreading unfair characterizations around about people.

Seriously. He publicly stated that he thinks he knows who the person was who started this forum. He goes on to say that this fellow had probably crossed some lines he shouldn't have and then when confronted with his sin he didn't repent. Talk about slander! Talk about not confronting in a private setting!

[Linda]

I think they need to reopen the Project Care files! Perhaps they should start by re-reading the error and apology statement, or, as our pastor remembered it "more of a statement of clarification".

[Huldah]

"We also became reconciled to the fact that not everyone will
go through a Biblical and honoring process of reconciliation. Instead of humbly seeking
peace in a private setting or finding out the true facts behind some accusations, some
people have chosen to publicly spread unfair characterizations of pastors and Christians
in our movement."

What about those who know the facts because they experienced them first hand? What about those who've made true statements about the movement and/or its leaders, as a warning to others?

When I emailed GC for a copy of its Weaknesses Paper, they not only sent me a copy, but the girl who sent it offered, "Please give us a chance to be reconciled with you," or words to that effect. I genuinely appreciated the offer. However, I've decided not to follow through because, to date, I haven't seen any evidence that the people in question have changed. If anything, the Weaknesses Paper, with its numerous efforts to put a positive spin on the leaders' actions by blaming them on "zeal" and "immaturity", only confirms that the leadership still doesn't fully appreciate the harm it did.

"God wants us to take the first step and pursue peace with our brothers."

What would it take to convince me that they're sincere about that? Well, perhaps if the leadership dropped by this forum to address the members' stated concerns, that would do it. If any of them recognized me from my posts here, they always could PM me. Until something like that happens, the leadership isn't really interested in taking the first step.

"Apart from a few exceptions, there was reconciliation with every person who was willing to talk through their offenses or concerns... one lesson we learned through Project Care is that some individuals have a critical nature, no matter how much you seek peace with them."

In other words, we're asked to believe that if reconciliation wasn't achieved, it was purely the fault of the other party. Every time. It couldn't possibly be because the leadership are merely sinners saved by grace, who are just as capable as the rest of us of being in denial about their own faults.

[Immortal_Raven]

Agatha,
Is there a time stamp on when that particular statement was published?
I'm curious if this is a new statement from within the past year or something older.
Linda,
Do you have a time stamp for that quote from Steve Nelson?
I attended the church in Greeley where he was a pastor and that passage sounds eerily similar to part of a message he gave.

-Immortal_Raven

[Linda]

Immortal, Perhaps you were there for the message. It was May 7, 2006 and given as a warning to stay away from gcmwarning. Here is the link to the message:
http://gcxweb.org/Audio/SlanderAndTheChristian-05-07-2006.aspx

[Immortal_Raven]

Yes I was there.  I had finished my UNC coursework in December of 2005, but had gone back to walk for graduation that weekend.  My wife and I were on the fence about attending, but decided to after much considering.  We hadn't left the church over a huge theological disagreement, we just left because of our preference to live in Colorado Springs as opposed to Greeley.  Thus, we weren't social pariahs to be shunned to the degree that many on this forum are.

A little back story for that message.  Someone had sent letters to many members of the Greeley church and the Fort Collins church.  The letters' contents were Paul Willis' letter of leaving the church and the website.  Knowing what I know now, that message is a glaring double standard. 

-Immortal_Raven

[Linda]

I first heard this message shortly after discovering this forum. I listened to it several times and was so troubled that I had other non-GC Christians listen with me. I found it very disturbing, as did they. Talk about milieu control!

So, you’ve got to be really careful what you let into your ear…for that reason I am not going to tell you guys what that web site is because I don’t think it’s good, I don’t think you should go to it…I just encourage you just don’t even entertain it, don’t pursue it, because it’s gossip.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Hmmm, I don't know how to check a time stamp.  How do you do that?  It's just a PDF file that I found today from that link.  Maybe someone more computer savvy might be able to answer that.

http://gccweb.org/assets/gccweb/pastornet/humilitypaper.pdf

[puff of purple smoke]

This document was first published about two years ago. I could find the exact date if it would be relevant, but I think you're more looking to see if it came out recently or decades ago. It was published post-GCMWarning (2006), post other Internet criticism, as their response. 2008 is my best guess.

[puff of purple smoke]

Correction, I was actually thinking of Dealing With Criticisms.

However, according to the pdf timestamp, "Responding To Critics With Humility" was created on June 18th, 2007.

[EverAStudent]

Apart from a few exceptions, there was reconciliation with every person who was willing to talk through their offenses or concerns.

From personal experience and anecdotal evidence I do not think reconciliation was acheived in quite the blanket and pervasive extent implied by this statement.  Further, I do not think the writer of the article has a proper view of reconciliation in mind.  Biblical reconciliation is founded upon the principle that the guilty party admit his guilt and repent, which is then followed by forgiveness by the offended party, which is then followed by a restoration of the relationship.  THAT is reconciliation. 

I do not see GCx leadership as having admitted guilt and seeking forgiveness to any meaningful extent, much less seeking to restore all to full fellowship.  Reconciliation is not ambiguously worded press releases that somehow are meant to incorporate and exhonerate guilty parties who lacked the conviction to sign the document.

God wants us to be humble before the world when mistreated.

So those whom are critical of GCx practices and doctrines are "of the world" and not "of the church of Christ."  Yes, that sounds like my old GCI days!!! 

Imagine Paul going to Peter and saying, "You are acting with hypocrisy toward the Gentiles," and then Peter replying, "Paul, you are a critical person who is obviously of the world and not of the church since you criticize my ministry."

That whole quote just takes me back to the 1980's. 

[G_Prince]

I'm tired of hearing about "reconciliation." It just implies that we are a bunch of hurt, angry people who are mistakenly venting personal grievances against GCx. I'm not mad at anyone in GCx, I just want the insanity to stop.

In a nutshell, GCx believes stupid, hurtful things. We point it out. The end. If GCx ever has a come to Jesus moment and stops their harmful behavior...Voila! They'll have a few less critics to deal with.     

[Linda]

In a nutshell, GCx believes stupid, hurtful things. We point it out. The end.

It is troubling that the "criticisms" that most of us discuss here are about ideas/teaching/theology. For that we get labeled as slanderers.

As far as I know discussing ideas is not a sin. Telling someone I disagree with their theology is not a sin.

However, being a slanderer is a sin. So, calling someone a "slanderer" merely because they have a different idea than you a would in itself be slander. In other words, if you call someone a slanderer who isn't slandering, you have slandered them! It seems to me that GC does a lot of slandering in this regard.

[EverAStudent]

Linda, many years ago, I think it was while I was still in GCI, I did an in depth analysis of the Scripture's use of the word slander.  Not surprisingly the vast majority of the uses (especially in the Greek) related to telling falsehoods about others.  Only on rare occaisions was telling the truth (because the intent was to cause harm instead of to cause good) considered an improper activity--for example, continuing to tell others about someone's sins after that person had confessed, repented, and stopped doing them was not generally an acceptable activity.

In Scripture, in almost every book there are people called out by name who have continued to sin.  The apostles did not think naming the names of those who acted sinfully in the church was in any way slanderous.  Diotrephes was named because he opposed the apostles' teaching.  Alexander the Coppersmith was denounced for opposing Paul.  Peter was denounced for mistreating the Gentiles!

The problem with GCI is that their statement of indiscretions was unsigned by individual pastors/elders, was an incomplete list, and was not addressed to specific individuals.  Further, it was ignored by all the pastors who did not sign it, and the indiscretions have continued ever since.  In other words, it was an "insincere apology" document ( http://www.thefaithfulword.org/insincereapologies.html ) in almost every way possible. 

It is not slander to continue to point out the sins of an unrepentant fellow Christian so long as the motive is to cause them to repent.

[Rebekah]

I spent some time reading Marching to Zion last night and couldn't believe how deceitful some of those elders were. It also made me realize just how long all of this has been going on. For almost 40 years people have been writing careful, Scripture-based letters, emails, and forum posts pointing out errors in theology and practice with all due respect.

And in return, the elders paint them as hurt, jealous, factious slanderers. This is nothing new. We aren't doing anything new; we're part of long line of people trying to correct this group. We're not doing anything new and neither are they. Can you believe it's been 19 years since the apology statement? 19 years! I haven't read the statement recently, but the only thing I can think that they've backed down on is that every man should be a pastor (they know they need someone to pay their bills!).

I've felt guilty for writing things that I'd never dream approaching a GC pastor with. I've felt like I've been sneaky or wronged them somehow by posting here.

But now it just seems silly to care about that. First, because they know exactly what they're doing, they know that it hurts people, and they don't care. Second, after reading about so many deceitful and aggressive actions towards people who disagree with them, I'm loathe to treat them with so much deference as to think they "deserve" something from me (I know "they/them" are very general and probably unfair terms).

When one of their members was swept away by another cult, they sent letters of warning about this group to every single church in their association. When an unfairly excommunicated member tried to join another church, they sent letters of warning to that person's pastors and even visited the pastors to discourage them from accepting this person.

They do not play nice and yet they expect us to.

[Linda]

For almost 40 years people have been writing careful, Scripture-based letters, emails, and forum posts pointing out errors in theology and practice with all due respect.
And in return, the elders paint them as hurt, jealous, factious slanderers. This is nothing new. We aren't doing anything new; we're part of long line of people trying to correct this group.

Very well put, Rebekah. I was reading the Larry Pile 2006 letter tonight and had the same thought. This has been going on for decades and everyone says pretty much the same thing. Families and friendships have been broken over the errors they taught and continue to teach, yet they to hang onto their flawed theology and continue to slander those who speak out to correct them and warn others. Very sad indeed.

Here's the link to the Pile letter:
http://gcxweb.org/Misc/LarryPile-03-11-2006.aspx