Your Money and Your Life

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[AgathaL'Orange]

Many churches that I have attended or visited throughout the years have taught lessons, sermons, given out booklets, etc. on giving. I once asked why there was a big split before we had started to attend the church, and one person told me that people just didn’t want to part with their money for a building campaign. I thought that this was an odd way to think of those who left. I doubted that a faithful attender would leave over a normal building campaign.

And then there was a NEW building campaign. And this is where it got REALLY, REALLY WEIRD.

There was to be a special kickoff building campaign where everyone was going to fill out their three year pledge cards and then turn them in… privately of course! So ahead of time we thought about it and decided that we could sacrifice an additional $X a month for three years above our tithe, and above our giving to other organizations. That amount extra felt like a lot to us.

So we are sitting in the pews with everyone else, when our faithful elders and the building campaign leader came to the front. They read some things and prayed, I think, and said some things about giving. AND THEN to set an example, these men ANNOUNCED what they would be giving individually. They emphasized that this would be above and beyond the tithe to the church and giving to the campus ministry.

They were running the campaign and they stood up and announced their pledges. The gifts were in the tens of thousands of dollars… some nearing $100,000. I knew these men. They all came from single income families. I knew about what they made, and I knew that our gift was NOTHING in comparison to this. My husband and I sat there in shocked silence.

At first we were overwhelmed with their generosity. We were humbled by their commitment. We decided to double our gift. We thought, if they can sacrifice THAT MUCH, we should be able to come up with some more ourselves! And we were fine with that, until we started thinking about what exactly had happened.

Those announcements were meant at best to be good examples to follow, and at worst, a high pressure tactic showing just exactly what kinds of pledges were expected. We were in shock for weeks after. I am still in shock to this day. These are not wealthy men. These men all had families. They already drove old cars and didn’t go out to eat. How on earth was this even possible? I still really have no idea.

On the one hand, I am in awe of that kind of dedication. On the other hand, this make me incredibly angry. I feel angry for the people who wanted to give 10 dollars extra a month or 40 or 100. They will feel that their gifts aren’t good enough. I feel angry that these men felt that this kind of sacrifice was necessary or even good! We would never, ever, ever be able to give this way to the church. To be honest, we really didn’t want to give this kind of money to a building campaign anyway. What about the AIDS orphans in Africa or that missionary who is moving to Papua New Guinea to translate the gospel into an unknown dialect?

We never brought this up to them, because we still wanted to believe that those men and their wives and their families are good, dedicated, generous people who gave in good faith and announced their gifts in good faith. We were afraid of their disaproval, their disappointment, and most of all… we wanted them to have some joy that they gave so much money. We didn’t want to taint what may have been a pure act of sacrificial giving.

I still think that this is so unhealthy. I am the kind of person that believes in giving up your life to be a missionary or dedicating yourself to full time Christian service. There must, however, be a recognition that when you are married and have a family, some of these avenues are going to be different because you have little babies to care for, and futures to plan. GCM seems to give no recognition that we are lay people, or that we might have a good plan for using our money. I hope that I am not like the rich young ruler. I really, really hope that I am not. You remember, when Christ told him that in order to be saved, he would need to go and give all he owned to the poor. Remember he left, sad, because he knew that he couldn’t do that. Lord, may that not be me! May my motives be pure. And if my friends read this, the ones who were so generous: I love you, but I think your zeal is misguided and unhealthy. Please rethink how you are pressuring those who willingly place themselves under your leadership. Rethink why it is you need to give so much.

[G_Prince]

During our building campaign, similar tactics were used. One of the pastors gave a very detailed sermon on his personal history of giving. I hope it was all done with good intentions and modesty because the pressure exuding from the pulpit was like a punch to the gut. Looking around I could see the shock and horror on the faces of others and in myself. We were all thinking the same thing. I’m only pledging $50 to this; what kind of a Christian am I? It was at this point that I doubled my giving to the campaign and also began to support several staff members. It wasn’t a sermon to encourage the flock it was a sermon to double or triple financial commitments. I don’t know any other way it could have been interpreted.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to give quite the opposite. However in my experience, GCM’s model of giving was not a God led decision, but an intense pressure cooker for commitment. I continually felt that I had to keep up with those around me, and if I don’t give more (to my absolute limit) that my faith was weak and untrue. In short I was giving for the wrong reasons.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Here is a passage in Exodus 36 where the people of israel are giving to their own building campaign. And the leaders of the church are so grateful that they actually tell the people to STOP giving! They don’t ask them to double or triple… at least in this situation. They say… “We have enough.”

Exodus36:2-7
2 Then Moses summoned Bezalel and Oholiab and every skilled person to whom the LORD had given ability and who was willing to come and do the work. 3 They received from Moses all the offerings the Israelites had brought to carry out the work of constructing the sanctuary. And the people continued to bring freewill offerings morning after morning. 4 So all the skilled craftsmen who were doing all the work on the sanctuary left their work 5 and said to Moses, “The people are bringing more than enough for doing the work the LORD commanded to be done.”

6 Then Moses gave an order and they sent this word throughout the camp: “No man or woman is to make anything else as an offering for the sanctuary.” And so the people were restrained from bringing more, 7 because what they already had was more than enough to do all the work.

[Angie]

I am sure you moderators are managing your comments, so I wanted to put in here how I am horrified of how these experiences made you feel. It seems that these are completely inappropriate tactics to be used in a building campaign that simply lack faith.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Thanks. I really don’t know why they felt the need to announce the gifts.

[hope]

hmmm. wow. i wrote about this very topic in another thread- but i kinda think i should cut and paste it into here.



i’m not sure what i think about all of this….i’m definitely beginning to question things….

[hope]

here is what i wrote in another thread…



—————————-



about high pressure sermons….



i would like to put forth the idea that whether a sermon is “high pressure” or not has less to do with content and delivery and more to do with the “pressure threshold” of the audience member.



for example: during a building drive in my GCM church i heard a person give testimony that he was going to sell his motorcycle and donate the money to the church. (ironically snoopy- he actually mentioned in his testimony that he had always considered his motorcycle like an insurance policy/retirement fund…I can’t remember the exact phrasing he used)



I believe one of the points trying to be made here was that God can (and does) inspire us to give beyond what society may consider “comfortable” or “reasonable” giving.



now- was leadership asking everyone to do this? certainly not! in fact- it was explicitly stated over and over again that this was not expected nor required of everyone. instead it was stressed that people should pray about the issue and ask the holy spirit to guide them.



did I feel pressure to do the same? no. when i prayed about how much to give the church i did not feel the Holy Spirit directing me to give in this way.



would other people in the audience have felt pressure to give in the same way? well- perhaps that depended upon their particular “pressure threshold”?



there are people out there who feel compelled to “keep up with the Joneses” so i supposed those types would feel pressure to give in the way that this other guy was giving. their “pressure threshold” would be pretty low in this sense.



and i guess there may also have been others who might have a particular weakness in the area of giving- as in - they struggle to give generously- they know this about themselves and perhaps maybe they feel a little envious of other people so willing to give so much? (i don’t know here- i am just speculating…)



but i don’t care what other people think. and i am not affected by what other people do. what is most important to me is that i obey the leading of the Holy Spirit in my life. i also feel like i am a pretty generous person (i don’t think i have a weakness in this area)….so perhaps my “pressure threshold” was higher on this issue?



(personally- i feel it is more worthy to give money to christian orphanages in India than it is to give to a building drive…but i digress)



Here is an excerpt from one of Sam’s posts in another thread- (regarding a sermon of Jim McCotter’s): “If anything, I have heard him preach (years before in Ames) an amazing series on the book of ACTS where he stressed that folks gave and sold their property voluntarily and never under compulsion.”



so was this sermon a “high pressure” sermon? Well- again I think that depends upon the “pressure threshold” of the audience members.



But at any rate- I think that the “voluntarily and never under compulsion” point is an important one to consider.



(side note: at the current church I attend – which is not a GCM church, nor a modern evangelical brand – a story was told from the pulpit about this couple that saved up all their money to buy this really expensive dream car. They saved and saved and saved- and finally when the day came when they had saved enough- they decided instead to use the money to build a school in Africa. In the end- they had enough money not only to build the entire school- but provide the entire operating budget (including staff salaries) for a whole year…..now I think that that is pretty cool and it inspires me to give generously….so I may have lied a little bit earlier when I said, “I am not affected by what other people do.”)

[Genevieve]

It’s true that different people will have different interpretations and responses to the same message. However, there are proven and well-used techniques for persuasion that advertisers use successfully, so I don’t think people feel pressure in a sermon for no reason.

I’m not sure a no pressure sermon would be characterized where the pastor is stressing how generous, how voluntary, how selflessly people in the early church gave (and YOU don’t even want to give a few hundred dollars a month? Or If you REALLY want to be like the early Christians, hand over your mortgage but don’t feel compelled!), coupled with personal testimonies from your friends and acquaintences who are given more that you could imagine (see how godly these people are!), and then ending it with a call to give. There’s some powerful persuasive techniques going on there.

Sure, you could talk yourself out of it, but then you risk feeling selfish and worldly (the worst!).

Sorry for the extra-long sentences.

[Genevieve]

Oh, read “who are given” as “who are giving”. Another Freudian?

[Dipping my toes in....]

Hmmmm. What I’m about to post is purely heresay as I never experienced it, but I’m going to post it anyways because I personaly trust the sources that informed me of this tactic.



At the church I attended, letters were sent from the pastor to individuals that stopped giving or gave less than their “usual”. The pastor kept tabs on money given, so he was well aware of who was giving what.



In one particular case, the individual had shifted their tithe to be going purely to a special project fund within the church. This person was giving very generously to this fund. However, this person got a letter from the pastor as they weren’t giving their tithe. Apparently, any special fund giving must be above and beyond the tithe given to the general church.



This made me very sick. Oh, and did I mention that the church had no financial report to the members? I asked for one on multiple occasions. Never got one. Oh well.

[Frail]

I don’t really know how things ran at the top but things at the bottom were strange. I lived in a house with 5 other GCM guys. 2 were de facto leaders, 2 were de jure leaders and one wasn’t too involved. At one point one of the leaders thought that God (or GCM) told him to buy a guitar… a several hundred dollar guitar and then he couldn’t cover rent. I (felt) like I was expected to cover rent because that was the (indirect) will of GCM and therefore God.



I got the feeling that things were sort of communal once you were in the group. My car was sort of considered common property but that could have just been a college thing.



Also, I do know that tithing was kept track of closer then what was required for ‘tax purposes’.

[bennyj]

I'm going to bring this back around to the building campaign and the leaders announcing their pledges in public.  I don't know who managed the building campaigns in the various churches, but I suspect it was the same outside consultant (some guy from Canada) as was used at our church.  In my case I was encouraged by the testimonies of the leaders, though it did seem odd.  I was involved peripherally in the campaign events so I attended meetings with the consultant.  My guess is that in all these cases they are using the same consultant who has a very packaged process of how to go about raising funds for large campaigns.  Not sure if that's good or bad, just an observation.

[Eve]

I read the article at the top "Your Money and Your Life" and was very disturbed b/c I believe this is my church that the writer is talking about.
What disturbs me so much is that this situation is taken completely out of context and twisted to make it sound so terrible. I understand that GCM churches are far from perfect, and that many people using countless hours of their time to post things on this website have probably been very hurt by a church they were involved in. However, not all of these churches are the same. Also, many of the posts I've read about various issues have taken those issues out of context.
As is the case in this story. I'm very sorry for the person who wrote this b/c they mistook this completely and are making our church out to be something it is not. The pastors at our church made it extremely clear every single time they talked about the building campaign that we were to pray about the amount God would have us give, not giving under compulsion (based on Scripture). None of the pastors or deacons shared their individual amount pledged, but they gave a combined total which I cannot understand how they can all give either! They weren't trying to make anyone feel bad and made it very clear that we were to give what the Lord had put on our hearts. The building is a very big project and incredibly necessary and the pastors have poured their lives into this church - that was the sacrifice they were willing to make. I'm sorry the person who wrote this felt pressured, but if you don't ever bring issues like this up to leaders, you won't ever get real answers or their real motives - that's not right, or fair to the church at all.
She also commented on people leaving our church several years earlier and said someone told her that they didn't want to part with their money. Again, if she had discussed the true issues with a pastor, she would find out the real truth - one person may tell someone the wrong thing, despite good intentions, and it can completely lead someone down the wrong path.
Please be very careful in your evaluations and judgements placed on these churches. It sounds like many of you have been burned or hurt, and I trust that all of you presented these issues with soft and open hearts to your leaders. Again, while they are not perfect, I think most of the people in these churches are truly trying to follow the Lord with their whole hearts, doing it the best way they know how. Please give them some grace. I hope that you are all still following the Lord. I don't think He would have anyone wasting all their time posting on some blog day in and day out. This world needs Christ so much more.

[Angry]

Thank you for your input Eve.

You stated "The building is a very big project and incredibly necessary...."

Please tell us why you need a very big building and why is it so incredibly necessary.

Jesus

[Eve]

=) by "very big project" I meant a lot of work, a lot of stuff going on with it. Compared to our current building, it is big, but our current building has no classrooms for Sunday school, one office (with 3 pastors and 12 staff), very cramped "fellowship hall" area, with a growing congregation. It is necessary to meet the space needs that we have and to be able to hold meetings for different ministries - its a 5,000 sq. ft building. In a community with little "meeting area" space for non-church activities as well, it will be made available to the community for various meetings or needs as they arise. Please don't make this out to be a bad thing if you don't know the entire context of the situation. It makes me sad that people use blogs like this to tear things apart, making them into something they aren't. I won't be posting on this anymore, I don't think this is a good use of my time. Thanks for understanding!

[AgathaL'Orange]

Eve, I believe we attended two different churches.  The pastors and leaders at MY church DID give the specific amounts.  They did!!  It was not a combined total.  And it was done at a special meeting to encourage people to give more than they felt comfortable with.  This is the truth!  At your church this may not be what happened.  I believe you.  But at my church this IS what happened.

AND the pastor taught in a sermon that people left because they just didn't feel dedicated enough to the movement or to the previous building campaign.  Also the second person who confirmed this for me would have known the truth.  They were privy to what the "behind the scenes" actions were.

So it actually did happen this way, and I believe that you attended a different church, Eve.  But I am sorry that you think that all of our experiences were misinterpreted.  I assure you that I have thought this over for many, many years.  I have sought to see the situations I have posted from the "other side."  But after years and years of making excuses for people, I finally came to the realization that if you have to make excuses for almost everything a person teaches... it's time to call it for what it is... BAD TEACHING and a DYSFUNCTIONAL CHURCH.

May you also be led to the truth!

[Linda]

Eve,

I have a couple of thoughts regarding your post.

First of all, you wrote:

Please be very careful in your evaluations and judgements placed on these churches. It sounds like many of you have been burned or hurt, and I trust that all of you presented these issues with soft and open hearts to your leaders.

Do you see all the assumptions you made here?

You are accusing people you don't know of not being careful and of judging.
You are accusing people you don't know of being bitter.
You are accusing people you don't know of not following proper Biblical order.
You are accusing people you don't know of having hard hearts.

You are giving a pass to the leaders and operating under the assumption that they are right or at least "more" right.

Again, while they are not perfect, I think most of the people in these churches are truly trying to follow the Lord with their whole hearts, doing it the best way they know how. Please give them some grace. I hope that you are all still following the Lord. I don't think He would have anyone wasting all their time posting on some blog day in and day out. This world needs Christ so much more.

And, here you ask us to give grace to the leaders and thereby make the assumption that grace hasn't been extended to them.

You accuse us of not following the Lord.
You tell us we are wasting our time here.

Please, Eve, extend us some grace.

And now, I see, that you have just popped in with a rebuke and are now leaving because this is not a good use of your time. This is very immature of you. At least have the grace and decency to let us respond to your accusations.

I guess you are not reading this, but for whoever may be reading this, I do think that the honest pursuit of the truth is never a waste of time.

Ironically, I do agree that there are many sincere believers and leaders in the churches who are trying to follow God with their whole heart. Sadly, they are bound up in a system that they learned when they were new, young believers and it's a system that elevates men and promotes elitism.

False teaching needs to be exposed, and it's definitely a better idea if it is corrected early, so that the work of the Gospel can move forward. But, exposing false teaching is not a waste of time...ever.

[Eve]

You are right, I apologize for my assumptions and for offending anyone. That was not my intention. Thank you for extending me grace, and also for understanding my hope that people posting on this site have extended grace to their church and it's leaders. I trust they have. May we all grow closer to and become more like the Lord each day. (now i really won't be checking this anymore, sorry! =))

[G_Prince]

Eve,

Thanks for your response. I know at first this site may seem like a giant network of GCx bashing, but I have to insist that we are not twisting the truth. We are simply sharing our own unfortunate experiences inside this church. We have generally found GCx's problems to be widespread and manifested to varying degrees in each church.

Of course these issues do not extend to everyone in every church, but there is a fundamental flaw in the DNA of this movement that drives its churches to  various inflammations of religious insanity.

I did not go to the same church as Agatha; my pastors didn't reveal how much they gave, but I felt the exact same pressure to give as she did. I know when someone is putting the screws into me in hopes of a payout, and there is no "context" that justifies it. I bet you could ask anyone else on this blog ( a community that stretches across the US) and they would give a similar answer.

[theresearchpersona]

What amazed me was that I was writing about these things, examining my Church's official statement/papers/teachings, and comparing scripture, tracking sources of all this...came to certain conclusions from scripture...

and then found out that a great number of people before me had noticed and concluded the same thing; and often not "liberal" or because of "unrepentent sin" as the pastors would say if/when someone took off.

It was all very encouraging in the one sense...I fought doubts of "maybe I'm just unteachable" or "maybe I'm completely off and wrong", but then I'd go and they'd wrest scripture and use manipulative tactics and start quoting "christian" authors who twist scripture and partner with New-Agers and mystics, and I'd think "what"?

On the other hand it was all very distressing to know other saints were also coming to know all this just as I was...and realize the state of affairs within the group and the dangers it poses to its attendants; AND that it mocks anyone who brings anything up, cracks jokes about people who'd criticize an imperfect man (the pastor), and buries information systematically, supposedly for our protection.