Advise needed on convincing my child to get out

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[concerned parent]

Hi.  My child, I guess I should call her an adult, started college last fall.  She started going to "the rock" with a group of friends.  At first she had some reservations about the people and beliefs, but since she has become swept up with the group and church.  Around Christmas time we noticed some changes in my daughter, her beliefs, values and personality changed.  We had several discussions about this.  She is insistant this church is a "perfect fit" for her.  We went to a service with her this spring and that reinforced and increased our concerns and anxiety.  She thinks we just don't understand.  When I found this website I can see many of my concerns are common concerns that others have.  Does anybody have advise on how to encourage her to leave?  or additional websites/books I can reference?  The only advise I've been given is to avoid key phrases that will make her defensive, but I don't know what these key phrases are.  She is living at home for the summer, but says she will attend leadership meetings each week and blitz nights once a week, which is an overnight event.  We are hoping to help her find a healthier church this summer since she nolonger wants to be the religion she was raised with.

[lone gone]

You have my sympathy.  When my parents were facing the situation you currently face, they tried all they could to get me out. They brought up the newspaper articles about the church I was in( this was back in 1975). They were Lutheran Christians and they questioned the teachings I was espousing. They also saw me as very committed to something that I wholeheartedly believed in... but they couldn't budge me. I ended up sitting across the table from them, tell them I couldn't have anything to do with them, and that I was shaking the dust off my sandals and we wouldn't have any contact with them.

I shut the door on them. What they did was not lock the door from their side.   We may have had a "scene" at that time,  but by releasing it to the Lord, and not holding it against me but rather forgiving me and bearing with me, they set the stage for an eventual return.  Think about the parable of the Prodigal son. When I did finally get out, they didn't lord it over me or tell me " We told you so!". They left it be, knowing that it was something that I had to face on my own because at that time I didn't trust anyone.

You will no doubt get other advice here, and someone may well fill you in on the keywords to avoid, but I'd also ask you to take a step back, get some perspective from your own life ( have you ever committed to something only to find out it wasn't a smart move?) and how you extracted yourself from it. Do not Over-react. Listening to someone is not the same as agreeing with them. Hear what your daughter is saying, respectfully disagree by sharing your own opinions, but treat her like the adult she now insists on actually being.

There are so many facets to this .... not just spiritual... but biological, social, and psychological.... too many to deal with in a short reply.

[EverAStudent]

Hi.  My child, I guess I should call her an adult, started college last fall.  She started going to "the rock" with a group of friends.  At first she had some reservations about the people and beliefs, but since she has become swept up with the group and church.  Around Christmas time we noticed some changes in my daughter, her beliefs, values and personality changed.  We had several discussions about this.  She is insistant this church is a "perfect fit" for her.  We went to a service with her this spring and that reinforced and increased our concerns and anxiety.  She thinks we just don't understand.  When I found this website I can see many of my concerns are common concerns that others have.  Does anybody have advise on how to encourage her to leave?  or additional websites/books I can reference?  The only advise I've been given is to avoid key phrases that will make her defensive, but I don't know what these key phrases are.  She is living at home for the summer, but says she will attend leadership meetings each week and blitz nights once a week, which is an overnight event.  We are hoping to help her find a healthier church this summer since she nolonger wants to be the religion she was raised with.

Hello! 

You did not mention which relgion you presently hold, nor what religion your daughter came out of.  So, some of the things we say to you may sound a bit strange.

First, GC (and its associated churches, like the Rock) tends toward a form of what we might refer to as evangelical Christianity.  They tend to believe the gospel of Christ: that man is a sinner even though God requires perfection, Jesus was born as a human, Jesus lived a perfect life, He was executed as a sacrifice to pay for humanities' sins, Jesus rose from the dead, and now He reigns as God, with the Father.  With this first point I think most of us agree.  Beyond this, most of us on the forum have problems with GC.

Second, GC tends to be seen as authoritarian and controlling by its ex-members.  See almost any thread in this forum for personal testimonies on that.

Third, GC has taught inappropriate doctrines and followed men who taught inappropriate doctrines.  For example, Jim McCotter convinced all the pastors (they call them elders) to teach that all the men in GC must become elders, then prophets, then apostles.  Jim McCotter made a video explaining his improper views of why he believed in modern day apostles ( the video is here: http://gcxweb.org/Misc/ApostleshipVideo/Default.aspx and a good refutation of his video is here: http://thefaithfulword.org/apostlepageone.html ).  Most trained Bible students will tell you the video is filled with biblical errors and factual errors.  Yet, even though Jim McCotter's teachings on the matter were filled with problems, none of the pastors/elders rebuked him for his errors, and then they made Jim McCotter their apostle.  Poor teaching resulting in bad judgment by the elders is one of the things ex-members find very wrong with GC.

My advice is to have your daughter ask the GC elders at her church the following:
1) did they know Jim McCotter?
2) did they regard Jim McCotter as their apostle?
3) do they now agree with what Jim McCotter said in the video?
4) did they hand out Jim McCotter's book on apostleship?
5) what is their present opinion on Jim McCotter as a Bible teacher?  (warning: if they say that Jim was an evangelist and not a Bible teacher, be aware that Jim was, and still seems to be, the source for many of their more inappropriate teachings.  So why would they make an evangelist their apostle and main teacher if he was not actually a Bible teacher?  More evidence of bad decision making tied to bad teaching.)

My best hopes and prayers for you and your daughter.

[Linda]

Excellent explanation and questions EAS. Lone Gone-so sorry for all you (and your parents) went through, thanks for sharing. Concerned parent-so sorry for what you are going through.

All this just makes me so sad.

[puff of purple smoke]

concerned parent,

I really wish that before I had gotten too involved in the movement, somebody had showed me all that I know now about it. I would encourage you to research and present information to your daughter, so that she can perhaps rethink her involvement in the group, or at least be on the lookout for anything weird and not be completely trusting of everything she sees there. Currently her view of the movement is probably pretty slanted and based only upon what she's heard from them.

Does she know that the movement was classified as a cult by the Cult Awareness Network, the Council on Mind Abuse, and the American Family Foundation? The exact terminology used by CAN was a Bible based Shepherding cult. That means that although they are Christian in fundamental doctrine such as the trinity and so forth, they are aberrant when it comes to secondary issues and methodology.

Does she know that in 1991, after being researched for mention in Ronald Enroth's book Churches That Abuse, the movement was basically forced to issue a 13 page apology covering a laundry list of abuses including coercive and authoritarian leadership, discouragement of college, elitism, and so on? I suggest you follow the link and read this document immediately, as many of the things apologized for in 1991 are still very much a part of the GC of today.

I'd also suggest you delve into gcxweb.org and the wikipedia article for further information on this group, and talk to her about what you find. Read the newspaper articles critical of the group, and everything else there. If she questions the relevance of "old problems" such as the excommunications or apostleship teachings of the 80s, inform her that most of the elders in power then are still in power today. Also keep in mind that this group is only 40-50 years old, and that their beliefs on discipleship mean that "old doctrines" continue to be passed down from leader to leader. You could even invite her to read or post on this forum, where numerous people with very recent experiences in GC have told of various abuses and could answer her questions.

Good luck!

[concerned parent]

I want to thank everybody for their posts. I felt really silly being concerned about my daughter getting involved in religion.  Most parents worry about drinking, partying & sex when their children go off to college. I never know what to say when people ask if my daughter is partying in college.  She is doing the exact opposite. 
I am gathering information so when we sit down to talk about it, she can see we are not imagining these things.  All of our concerns are concerns others have addressed here.  It amazes me these churches from all over have the same issues.  I realized the choice is ultimately hers, but I want her to have the facts.  I was not raised with a religion and my husband was raised by strict Catholic parents.  Our children have attended religious education classes, but did not attend church on a regular basis.  My husband has realized the negative impact this had on our daughter and now we attend church regularly (I cannot say my other children are thrilled about this). 
Thanks again for the responses.  I try to be open minded and patient when I listen, but when she questions topics like a woman's place being in the home - I just want to scream.     

[EverAStudent]

I want to thank everybody for their posts. I felt really silly being concerned about my daughter getting involved in religion.  Most parents worry about drinking, partying & sex when their children go off to college. I never know what to say when people ask if my daughter is partying in college.  She is doing the exact opposite. 
I am gathering information so when we sit down to talk about it, she can see we are not imagining these things.  All of our concerns are concerns others have addressed here.  It amazes me these churches from all over have the same issues.  I realized the choice is ultimately hers, but I want her to have the facts.  I was not raised with a religion and my husband was raised by strict Catholic parents.  Our children have attended religious education classes, but did not attend church on a regular basis.  My husband has realized the negative impact this had on our daughter and now we attend church regularly (I cannot say my other children are thrilled about this). 
Thanks again for the responses.  I try to be open minded and patient when I listen, but when she questions topics like a woman's place being in the home - I just want to scream. 

Thank you for the clearer background information.  Given what you have said about your limited contact with Christian churches, this must all seem very odd.

You are quite correct, it is wonderful that your daughter is indulging in the moral opposite of the party scene.  For that, we praise God.  In fact, your daughter's decision to follow Christ with all her heart is awesome!  I would not want to diminish her enthusiasm for God at all.

It is so very hard to explain, I think I might characterize the situation like this:  She has chosen a church association that believes the basics well enough, but messes up alot on other areas and tends to be over controlling of Christ's followers.  To try to use a non-spiritual analogy:  If she were buying a house, she has signed a long term mortgage for an adjustable rate mortgage on a house that is only worth half of what she paid for it.  Everyone needs a place to live, just like everyone needs Jesus for salvation.  However, this house (her local GC church) will cost her way too much, take up too much time, and she will feel she cannot just walk away from it. 

Of course, she can always walk away from the GC church without renouncing Christ.  They will want her to think she has married this local church and that walking away from the church is like divorcing Christ.  Yet, their use of such Scripture tortures the real meaning of the text.  In truth, once one has received Christ as Savior, one can never fall out of His hands or be lost from His love.  But one can ALWAYS change churches.  For we are united with Christ for eternity, not to any local church.

Blessings to you and your daughter.

[calgal]

Dear Concerned Parent:

I feel for you.

I was that child in the 1980s.  I have that child invovled in the movement today and is being groomed for leadership by his father who is a paster in the GCI today.  So, I'm experiencing the same thing you are.  In fact, I met with my son this weekend to discuss these very issues. He is struggling with feeling such a great part of this community. There is a HUGE tug with other likeminded, passionate college kids who love God. We often talk so much about how misaligned leadership is (and it is and this is where the problem is) but the pull for these kids (as it was for me) is the fellowship. 

I remember how I felt when I first met with other college kids on campus when we all sat in a circle, broke bread and prayed. I imagined that we were first century Christians. It felt authentic and it struck a cord.  How could this be wrong.

I remained in the church for 10 years.  I even married into the church (I state it this way as we were not allowed to date but would wait for the man to be given a vision from god and approval from the leadership). When I started to question doctrine and actions of the church, I met huge obstacles and no support from my husband at the time.  It took a divorce with three kids in tow to get out of the church.   

As for my child, I want to keep lines of communication open.  The worse thing that can happen is that we stop talking.  I ask about his bible study groups, who he lives with, what scriptures he is reading, because this is what his life is about.  I also share my history and questions about the church.  I also make sure that I'm inovled in larger issues in life like employment, college, roomate issues as if I'm not, the church will be.  I also tell him that I know he has a good heart and that I see he is a seeker of the truth.  I encourage him to question everything.  To look at things from difernt viewpoints. I also ask him not to use 'church' language around me.  Hard to believe it has not changed in 20 years!

My two cents.

Cal gal

[kellie taylor]

Dear Concerned parent-

I just wanted to add a few things to the comments already posted. I was a freshman in college when I got involved with the church. I was raised in a Christian home, was well-rounded (did well in school, athletics), and sincerely loved God. To be honest, when I left for college I was also naive and a bit idealistic. :-)

When I came home for Christmas, my parents noticed some changes in me and were concered. By Spring term, I was a mess. I was afraid of God, having trouble concentrating in school, getting headaches, and emotionally a wreck. My parents decided that when I came home that summer they were not going to let me go back to college in that state. I was 19, and legally there was nothing they could do, but they knew I was in trouble. Thankfully when I was home that summer, I was able to see how messed up I was, and on my own I decided not to go back to college at that school. It has taken me a very long time to process this experience and try and find healing.

I am glad that you are concerned for your child. It is exciting that she has taken more of an interest in following Christ, but some of the things these churches teach are very skewed and can cause a lot of confusion and pain. As for helping her see some of your concerns, I would suggest talking to someone at Wellspring retreat center (you can google it or access it on the gcmwarning.com site. They are specifically set up to help people leaving GCM/GCC or other abusive situations.

If you know anyone who has had a bad experience in the church, maybe they would be willing to talk to your child. As others have said, unfortunately, I wouldn't listen to what my parents tried to tell me. I'll be keeping you and your daughter in my prayers. Feel free to email me if you would like.

Kellie

[AgathaL'Orange]

I'm sorry that these things happened to you all!  Thanks so much for sharing.  These stories need to be told.  I'm sending up prayers tonight for all of you.  ((((((hugs))))))

[Linda]

So sorry for all who have suffered under the heavy hand of GC. God bless you all.