Anyone from the early '70s?

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[swampwitch]

I was in GCI before it had a name, from 1973-1979. I left my husband, who was an elder in the church in Ruston, Louisiana, and was then "put out" of the church -- "You can't quit! We fire you!"

Jerry McDonald interviewed me for his article in the late 80's. I recognized my own words under the alias of "Martha" toward the end of the article, which I have found online.

I have long been curious about other members  who left or were put out, and what their lives have been like. I see by some of your posts that many of you have retained your Christian faith, which I have not. I am not an atheist, nor am I bitter about my experience, traumatic though it was.

The elders I knew were Herschel Martindale, Bill Woods, Jim McCotter, Dennis Clark, Ivan Birrer, and several more.

swampwitch

Hope y'all are having a great evening.

[lone gone]

hello  and welcome to this community,

My wife was put out of the Pre-GC church we attended in Ames,Ia. That was back in 1981. She was put out for the same reason you were, for leaving me. There was another woman put out for the same reason.

My ex-wife attended therapy and received a lot of counseling for her
"Guilt" issues from her actions and how they were addressed.

She married the man she left me for and they decided to attend a Lutheran church as a compromise between his catholic and her GC backgrounds. They are still together 25 years later so something has worked.

MY thoughts about the GC churches and their discipline policies is that is they didn't understand something, get rid of it. Since they had no idea about marriage counseling or interpersonal relationships they could offer no help.

And yes, this was in spite of Herschel, Dennis, and Jim McC being on the scene in Ames.

I do think that GC has a better handle on these things now, even if the knowledge came about as a result of trial and error.

[swampwitch]

Thank you, lone gone. In the work in Ruston, three marriages collapsed under the weight of the oppressive teachings on marriage and family. My marriage was not solid to start with; it's a long story, but I came from a violently dysfunctional family before my marriage and involvement with GCI.

What I sought was safety and belonging, and for awhile, the group seemed to meet those needs. But as my ex-husband took on more responsibility, he become more critical, overbearing, and self-righteous, and the "saints" began to take out their hostility toward him on me. His criticism and condemnation of me, the loneliness of being an elder's wife, and the 18-hour days of being a servant -- cooking, washing, cleaning for my husband and the elders -- the pressure and misery become intolerable.

I remember thinking it would all be bearable if I could just hear some words of kindness, encouragement, or praise. None of that was ever forthcoming, though. I had two miscarriages that were partly due to physical exhaustion and stress, and was back to cooking for the church and "ministering" to the saints within days of each. Of course, I had to be cheerful about my loss, as it was "God's will."

That "work" did not survive, and there was some admission on the part of Herschel & co. that they had overextended, but that did not net me any mercy from them. I've always been curious to know whether, after all these years, these people would still look through me as though I were a ghost, were they to meet me on the street. It did happen once in Ruston, and was rather creepy.

I see all that now as consistent with the sort of excess, procrustean idealism, and dualism that is often characteristic of very young adults. I have no doubt that most of those with whom I was involved, even those who were inadvertently cruel, have matured into rational, compassionate adults.

[theresearchpersona]

I was in GCI before it had a name, from 1973-1979. I left my husband, who was an elder in the church in Ruston, Louisiana, and was then "put out" of the church -- "You can't quit! We fire you!"

Jerry McDonald interviewed me for his article in the late 80's. I recognized my own words under the alias of "Martha" toward the end of the article, which I have found online.

I have long been curious about other members  who left or were put out, and what their lives have been like. I see by some of your posts that many of you have retained your Christian faith, which I have not. I am not an atheist, nor am I bitter about my experience, traumatic though it was.

The elders I knew were Herschel Martindale, Bill Woods, Jim McCotter, Dennis Clark, Ivan Birrer, and several more.

swampwitch

Hope y'all are having a great evening.

The thing that is to be drawn into question is "why'd you leave him?". If you divorce somebody for any reason but marital unfaithfulness, according to Jesus Himself it is not a divorce. I could understand if anyone decided to leave GC's abusiveness, but that's not itself grounds to leave a marriage.

I'm not questioning you since I don't know your circumstances: but even while they were in error, if you left for any reason that that given by Christ and the passages He himself refers to when answering that question, they wouldn't have been incorrect to say "out" over it if you didn't repent of it: that would be sin.

Same goes for the wife of poor lone: although he wasn't the one who sinned in that matter: I am glad, however, that you're both out of the abuse system. As to Ms. Swampwitch, if you did leave improperly, please do repent and be forgiven of it, and serve the Lord all your days. Grace.

[swampwitch]

I had very good reason to leave him. Verbal abuse is a good reason. Sexual abuse is a good reason. I had thought that this forum would be free of the judgemental attitudes I encountered in that group. I hardly thought I would find their harshness and legalism condoned here.

[EverAStudent]

Greetings Swampy!

Welcome to the forum!!!!

As you already noticed, when you solicit an opinion on this forum from 3 people you will get 7 different answers.  We are still human, regardless of our status before God.

What breaks my heart is that you feel you have lost faith in Christ.  This is not a judgment, it is my emotional response to your comment.

It is my fondest hope that you will come to see Christ as better than GC leadership or followership.  He does not dissapoint anyone, but we sure do.

Welcome.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Swampfriend,
I do not judge you because I get how GC does not always (particularly in the distant past, but even still today) treat family relationships as the most important facet of our lives.  It is there where we make the decisions like:

1.  Where to live
2.  Whether to have children and how many
3.  Where to attend church
4.  Our vision
5.  How best to love our closest "neighbors" (our dear spouses and children).

It is also where we
1.  Raise future souls to pursue God
2.  Demonstrate laying down our lives
3.  Reach out to the world around us
4.  Find a refuge

Honestly, if my husband would have been so idealism driven that he would have allowed those things to happen to me, I would have seriously considered leaving as well.  There is something very wrong in a relationship where a man refuses to defend his wife, protect her, comfort her, and listen to her.

I agree that many of the flaws during your time were due to immaturity, misplaced idealism, and intense zeal.  But this is no excuse for not helping a family through a bad spot.  If you cannot be given any help or guidance, what can you do?  If your husband mistreats you, you are within your rights to leave.

Many people will choose the law over compassion, and I believe that this is wrong.  

I believe a situation is completely different for someone who willfully leaves their family to pursue a relationship with another person.  And this is one reason why I have such a big problem with GC.  They have encouraged people to make unwise decisions that can hurt their souls.  They have put people in a position ( I just heard another one today that I am not at liberty to discuss regarding a couple and their child) where they pick the CHURCH over their children, wives, or husbands.  God,  NOT the church, should be on the top of our list.  Family next... our commitments to the church a bit farther down.

So, please know that you are NOT judged by me and many others here.  

I hope that you have found peace today, and I am sorry that your first marriage was so painful.

[swampwitch]

Agatha and everastudent, thanks for your kindness. I've been somewhat surprised that so many, perhaps all, in this group have continued as Christians. My spirituality is hard to define, impossible to codify. For me, the most honest answer, ultimately, is "I don't know." I don't mind not knowing the answer to "life, the universe, and everything," and it does not frighten me.

What I do know is enough, and the best way I can communicate it is through the words of Albert Einstein:

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us “universe”, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

I don't know whether it is required to hold a belief in the supernatural elements of Christianity in order to be a part of this forum, but if it is not, I know from reading your posts that I would enjoy getting to know you all. We all refract and reflect the light of our Creator in extraordinarily beautiful and individual ways, and there is much love and compassion here that tells me that you do walk in that light.

In the area of marriage, the teachings of the church when I was with them pretty much promoted what I now can only describe as rape. God's judgement was the knife to my throat when I had to submit to my husband's unwanted attentions, once even in a semi-public situation in which I was just mortified that our activity might be noticed. Once a woman has been violated that way, I don't think she has any further obligation to her husband. I would rather have died than to let him touch me anymore.

It has been useful to me here to see that there is a real respect for women, and to understand that that is not entirely incompatible with what seems to be the fundamentalist view held by many on this forum. I am glad that the treatment of children in that group is also now recognized for the abuse that it is.

Has anyone in this group grown up in GC? The draconian and brutal punishment I saw meted out to children in that group has haunted me ever since, and I've wondered how those poor kids ended up.

[theresearchpersona]

I had very good reason to leave him. Verbal abuse is a good reason. Sexual abuse is a good reason. I had thought that this forum would be free of the judgemental attitudes I encountered in that group. I hardly thought I would find their harshness and legalism condoned here.

No, I wasn't offering either condemnation or judgment:

he become more critical, overbearing, and self-righteous, and the "saints" began to take out their hostility toward him on me. His criticism and condemnation of me, the loneliness of being an elder's wife, and the 18-hour days of being a servant -- cooking, washing, cleaning for my husband and the elders -- the pressure and misery become intolerable.

I remember thinking it would all be bearable if I could just hear some words of kindness, encouragement, or praise. None of that was ever forthcoming, though. I had two miscarriages that were partly due to physical exhaustion and stress, and was back to cooking for the church and "ministering" to the saints within days of each. Of course, I had to be cheerful about my loss, as it was "God's will."

That "work" did not survive, and there was some admission on the part of Herschel & co. that they had overextended, but that did not net me any mercy from them. I've always been curious to know whether, after all these years, these people would still look through me as though I were a ghost, were they to meet me on the street. It did happen once in Ruston, and was rather creepy.

The above I'm sorry for, and wish with heart and soul that it hadn't happened: I've been abused and in very abusive situations (family and non, and around constantly abused people) for a very long time myself; I only can't in good conscience not mention the word on the matter, but it's not that I don't understand where you're coming from.

Grace.

[theresearchpersona]

I don't know whether it is required to hold a belief in the supernatural elements of Christianity in order to be a part of this forum, but if it is not, I know from reading your posts that I would enjoy getting to know you all.

There's no such requirement on this forum.

In the area of marriage, the teachings of the church when I was with them pretty much promoted what I now can only describe as rape. God's judgement was the knife to my throat when I had to submit to my husband's unwanted attentions, once even in a semi-public situation in which I was just mortified that our activity might be noticed. Once a woman has been violated that way, I don't think she has any further obligation to her husband. I would rather have died than to let him touch me anymore.

Really don't know what to say about behavior like that at the moment, except very sorry.

It has been useful to me here to see that there is a real respect for women, and to understand that that is not entirely incompatible with what seems to be the fundamentalist view held by many on this forum. I am glad that the treatment of children in that group is also now recognized for the abuse that it is.

Has anyone in this group grown up in GC? The draconian and brutal punishment I saw meted out to children in that group has haunted me ever since, and I've wondered how those poor kids ended up.

Lots of GC-raised kids I know are very very nice and all, though sometimes a bit "off", so to speak; though it depends: it seems to me like I've met not a few who were out of control growing up, or who are whenever they get the chance; and there're some who don't seem like that at all, though I've been irked a lot by how often GC families nod at such behavior...and how often those people are selected for any kind of "leadership" whatsoever despite that history and continued misbehavior.

As to "fundamentalism" there's the kind the media talks about where it's the pseudo- variety, and there's the Biblical kind of "Love thy neighbor", and "do good to them hate you, [etc.]"; GC not only abused and mistreated (and still does semi-officially in the back-room policies passed by their teaching and word of mouth, though with a much mincer veneer) people, but by their own doctrines still do, as they like to say, "ideas have consequences": they're not truly fundamentalist, though they may've had similarities; a "fundamentalist" is one who holds to the fundamentals of the Christian faith--and particularly they're characterized, as far as I've seen, by discerning, and willingness to contend with people in love, not covering-up things in the name of love only, and attacking people who'd dare challenge them.

GC sees its actions as "necessary" in order to "protect the sheep", so to speak: but they're often sheep of another fold, I think: whereas the sheep begin becoming apparent when they speak-up and against all the bad stuff. Christ's flock is little, and in the GC scheme of things it has little place, I think, as they'll inevitably begin looking to Christ and that'll conflict with GC's false-apostle-delivered "vision".

You know I think it's well put this way, GC mocks "ordinary life": even sings "worship" (blasphemous) songs against it to get the ignorant zealous and then deliver messages to them to say "do something"; but to Timothy Paul writes the following:

I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

which is 1 Tim 2:1-3; now what's funny is if someone continues onto the next several verses it's practically inevitable, from what I've experienced with GC, that they'll wrest these horrendously and then exhort everyone to doing all they can to save the poor souls who are seeking God but just don't know what to do...this they say about the writings of a man who wrote Romans 9. When the responsibility for others' salvation becomes dependent on your works, your techniques, on you when there's not much time, "they might die tomorrow", you you you...it's no longer God that saves, at least what you're teaching: and it's quite the heavy burden to lay on men's and women's shoulders: as you experienced.

But it's God that saves, nothing we do can change another's fate: and it's my Lord who said

25 At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: 26 yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. 27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.

Quite contrary to the notion that you or I, or anyone, has anything to do with men's salvation! That's at God's mercy: it's why I'm outright against even the idea, as offensive as it may be, of arminian theology: it puts you and I into responsibility for our salvation, rather than having mercy from God who washes away sin that we don't face the responsibility for that, a horrendous fate.

Jesus continues:

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

We can labor for righteousness: but ourselves never find it; Pharisees gave their disciples yokes to do all as they, and strict rules far beyond the law, even that didn't match the intent and spirit of the law's letter; Jesus on the contrary proves a person in whom to rest from such burdens. That why like EverAStudent when you say that you lost faith, well, it's quite sad to me also. GC says "come to us and experience Jesus", whereas Jesus says "come to me"; GC "trust God through us", Jesus however is the only mediator between God and man, and we're to trust Him directly...obey Him yes, but as He says, His yoke is light: it's to believe Him, and His commands are not burdensome.

The God who saves out of His mercy, abundantly and compassionately, irregardless of ourselves, giving unto us Himself even though we had only been seeking God's hand--His benefits not Himself and His person, this is He who I hope you'll trust "towards", that is, turn your face to and look in trust, and belief.

Grace to you.

[lone gone]

Swampwitch,

Look a the top of the page.... Right below  the words  "De-Commissioned"

This whole website needs a warning that it is NOT a support group.  We are too human, with too many varying needs based on too many varying hurts to be a support group for anyone.

It is a discussion forum.... and a not too civil one at times.

[theresearchpersona]

I don't know...I'm not exactly averse to being supportive of someone, so long as I know what I am and am not supporting, and make clear what I am and am not; thus the divorce thing mentioned, for instance; and yet having sympathy also. As for "slamming", I don't think that any of them slammed one another!

Grace.

[EverAStudent]

Hi Swampy (by the way, my use of nicknames is more driven by a need to connect at a friendly level, and I struggle with having to think of you as a witchy type of person, whereas I love water and fishing in swampy waters, so...if you do not object...I prefer to use the more friendly swampy image)!

Actually, with regard to salvation in Jesus Christ, that is not a criteria to participate in this forum!!!!!

In fact, I have great hope for you.  Many in this world, and possibly in GCx, had/have no idea they are not Christians.  They played the games, used the lingo, but viewed their involvement in church as a means to gain or some other goal, and not as servanthood to Christ.  

Recognizing one's lost condition is huge!!!!!  It allows one to contemplate the universe, the claims of Christ, God as Creator, and other such matters without having to pretend or to put up facades.  If God calls you to faith, you will be given that faith by the Holy Spirit.  If not, you cannot whip it up in yourself.  Keep asking questions and reading the Bible.  But do be open to being convinced of the truth of Christ, and do not dismiss Him simply because we and GCx are poor witnesses.  

Wecome aboard!

[swampwitch]

As I read your replies, I'm reminded of one thing that was so attractive about this group. It seemed that this church drew people who were very intelligent, earnest, and idealistic, with very high standards for acheivement in their everyday lives. It was natural that those traits should have carried over into the spiritual realm, sometimes in a beneficial way, but sometimes in ways that could become very uncomfortable in the face of everyone's inevitable human limitations.

I'm reminded of this especially in some of your reactions to what I've told you of my spiritual state of affairs. I see such genuine concern, and I really don't want you to be anxious or think I'm unhappy. I know that is unavoidable for you if you truly believe in the exclusivity of the faith you hold, so I don't know what I would say to reassure you. I appreciate your kindness, and I do not want you to be uncomfortable on my account, though.

I have done a lot of political writing and activism, and was an editor for a news and commentary website for a year or two. Right now, I'm looking for a job, and have not written much about politics lately, because I am quite frankly shocked speechless, as this country seems to have jumped the shark sometime in the past eight years.

I bring up the writing and website experience because I've spent a fair amount of time corresponding with people with diverse and often passionately held viewpoints and seldom encountered so many articulate and reasonable people.

Which just reinforces the observation I mentioned in the first paragraph.

My children and I live on the Gulf Coast, and returned from our hurricane "vacation" to find no damage to our home, our power on, and our water clean.  My 18-year-old daughter has been helping a friend and her mother distribute food this weekend and today, and tomorrow I'm going to a local church to get to work, as well. I was unable to do anything last week because the mold and the travelling set me up for a serious case of bronchitis. It has been frustrating, because while we were waiting until it was okay to come home, we were seeing on the news all the PODs and other places where volunteers were needed, and wishing we were here. I'm finally well, now, and there's still enough to do.

Oh, and swampy is fine. I used to post on a news/political forum under this name, and was often called swampy. I actually hope to move somewhere much less swampy soon, and out of the path of these storms. I like studying them, and have sort of a sixth sense about them, and have gotten out of the way with my kids before everyone else thought to do so the past couple of times, but this is growing tedious. Maybe tornadoes would be entertaining for awhile.

Hope you all are having a lovely evening.

Swampwitch

[theresearchpersona]

The nice thing about hurricanes is that you know when they're coming, Tornadoes are random, freak, occurrences! Though personally the worst thing about a hurricane, I'm guessing, isn't actually the floods or destruction, but would probably be the bacteria spread everywhere from the contaminated water.

Just my thoughts: hope all is going well since you mentioned the whole hurricane thing; make sure that any very elderly people around you don't even nick themselves on anything.

[EverAStudent]

Oh, and swampy is fine. I used to post on a news/political forum under this name, and was often called swampy. I actually hope to move somewhere much less swampy soon, and out of the path of these storms. I like studying them, and have sort of a sixth sense about them, and have gotten out of the way with my kids before everyone else thought to do so the past couple of times, but this is growing tedious. Maybe tornadoes would be entertaining for awhile.

Something tells me we would have had a great number of interesting political discussions had we been in a GC church together

I live in the tornado belt--been through three.  No direct hit yet.  They have a wonderful tendency to "bounce" (lift up off the ground) as they move, sparing us each time.  One time, many years ago, my young family and I were in our mobile home (our GC days) huddled in our livingroom wearing motorcycle helmets, listening to the sirens, watching the wind pound the home, waiting for the hit, when silence..., the storm simply jumped and came down a mile closer to town.  Praise the Lord!

Sorry, Swampy.  Concern is in my nature.  But I also know that worry changes nothing, so I just pray.  If God brings you to the point of faith, we will all rejoice.  Until then, we can carry on a lively debate or two about politics, or whatever.  Remember, every one of us on this forum was at one time a pre-Christian.  None of us had faith at some point in our respective lives.  So no one can legitimately discriminate on that basis.  However, I do reserve the right to be concerned

[swampwitch]

I wanted to respond to some of your responses, but I've been volunteering at a relief base camp at a Lutheran church near JSC. Also still looking for a job, and hope to at least start substitute teaching soon.

EAS, was it you who mentioned the need for caution regarding contamination on the part of people working? Yes, I've already seen one man who was a bit surprised at the fact that you cannot let a cut or laceration go untreated under these circumstances. I was so late to start helping out because I am allergic to mold, and nearly had pneumonia from it a couple of weeks ago. It is frustrating to be unable to go into the houses to work, but I've found other work to do.

Regarding politics, it has concerned me to learn that Jim McCotter and his family have been or are members of the National Council for Policy. Any political involvement on the part of the GC I knew is alarming. Authoritarian, anti-egalitarian, and absolutist attitudes are so inimical to civil and democratic society, and do enough damage in the small groups in which we found those practices prevalent.

It is probably obvious that my pollitical work has not been on the right end of the political spectrum, and not all of that is a reaction against religious excess.

Part of it has to do with growing up in the South, and having a very visceral and disgusted understanding of the "Southern strategy" that rearranged the two-party political landscape during and after the Civil Rights Movement.

Anyway, it is a group of churches organizing and doing the relief work here -- CORE -- Churches Organized for the Relief Effort.

After working with people who had been there every day, for no money, no recognition, just because it had to be done, I was going home and seeing the House hearings on the AIG bailout. I was just sick about it. The people who share this country with me, whom I've worked alongside, been friends with, shared my life with -- my fellow citizens are so much better, and deserve so much better, than the people who are in charge, or who would be in charge of us.

My political orientation of late has been to eschew left/right, Democrat/Republican, red/blue. Those are false choices, and give us no hope, and divide us along artificial and petty issues. I have always been much more populist, and now really do believe that we are so much better than the people who are looting our treasury and sending our children off to die for their profit and power.

It may not seem possible or optimal to those who believe that it takes faith in the supernatural to change the world for the better, but that is why I've always believed was my responsibility, with or without divine intervention.

It is obvious that most of you have continued in that goal for your lives, which for those I knew in the group, preexisted their involvement, and I know continues on afterward.

[EverAStudent]

It is obvious that most of you have continued in that goal for your lives, which for those I knew in the group, preexisted their involvement, and I know continues on afterward.

Hi Swampy!

Quite correct, at least in my case.  What I was then (and still am to a degree) was what I had become prior to my GC years.  I was (am) a Christian.  I was (still am) voting morally conservative (could not stomach voting for someone like Clinton who orders Arab aspirin factories to be bombed just to take his sexual indiscretions off the front page of the papers--no wonder so many in the Mid-East hate us).  Over time, I have probably become a bit more understanding of why folks vote to the left, though doing so is not normally something my own heart will allow me to do.

Your volunteer work is admirable.  Also, I am pleased to hear that churches were involved in the efforts (I like to think many still live their faiths).  Sadly, I agree with you on the Democratic-controlled Congress, what are they thinking bailing out Wall Street but ignoring disaster areas?  Worse, why did the Fed lower interest rates (again!) when it was the prolonged lower interest rates that caused money to be so cheap to borrow that emboldened everyone into over-extending?????  Wouldn't the cure be to tighten up the money supply and force folks to borrow responsibly again?????  (Uh oh, this is a no-debate forum...but then again, I am expressing agreement...)

Actually, it was someone else (not me) who wrote about keeping wounds clean in disaster areas.  When I was a youth, and a flood hit our city, I went down to the disaster area and shoveled basement mud.  I never understood how water could carry such a volume of debris and soil.  What a filthy task you have taken on.

It was always such a hard thing for me to try to grasp why pain and suffering exist when God is love.  Why do there have to be natural disasters?  Why do Christians abuse other Christians?   Why do nations try to destroy other nations just because they do not like thier religion?  To date, the best book I ever read on this subject is D.A. Carson's, "How Long O Lord?" and the worst "Christian" book on the subject was C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain."

Swampy, what do you think caused you to turn away from a faith in God?

[swampwitch]

First, about faith, EAS. It really did seem like a purely voluntary thing to me to simply decide to believe something with no empirical evidence, motivated only by a feeling of need or fear, and the fact that in our culture, faith, as well as patriotism, are considered virtues. I really do not understand why, given that both, while they can be constructive, are more often the source of some of the most atrocious and life-destroying mischief in our species' history.

I have decided that I should just probably tell anyone who asks that the reason I refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance  is because I'm Bhuddist. I can't tell people that I think our country's arrogant attitude of moral exceptionalism, and our brutal practice of bombing civilians in preemptive, unnecessary wars for profit and resources is immoral, and, by definition, terrorism, and that I cannot pledge allegiance to the flag under which those atrocities and violations of international law and common decency occur. I would not be able to fly anymore, unless it would be with a black hood over my head.

In our culture, if I pull out the trump card of religion, any religion, to bolster what, to me, is a simple moral imperative based on my responsibility and allegiance to my fellow human beings, it is acceptable.

I already have a file with the Houston PD Criminal Investigation Division, and probably the ones in Galveston and League City over my speaking, organizing, and writing against the war, police brutality, and, of course, those ever-present pests in the South and Texas, the KKK. It is so awkward when we are expected to say the pledge, or pray in public, because it is so against my principles to do things that divide people from one another, or are obvious shows of moral or nationalistic superiority. Perhaps it is some leftover dissonance from my days with the church pre-GC that any time groups of people start to chant anything in unison, I find it unsettling, but I actually felt that way before, and got involved with churches in spite of it, just out of loneliness. I've since come to regard those alliances as lapses of integrity on my part.

I wouldn't judge anyone else's involvement in that way, because if they did not have that uneasiness about it, then they were not being untrue to themselves.

I can't exactly say that I'm Kantian, because that is not a religion, and wouldn't get me excused from Guantanamo any more than being Muslim would. Butt I do want to have a t-shirt made with the slogan, "Atlas Shrugged, but I Kant."

[swampwitch]

It occurred to me that I am making a lot of statements that other members of this forum might not agree with, but I'm not actually debating, because I don't want to prove a point or change anyone's mind. Just explaining where I've landed philosophically and with regard to religion, which is apparently quite different from many on this forum.

If any of the things I'm saying about how I came to believe what I do are disturbing to anyone, I regret that, and would reconsider how to express those things truthfully, but in ways that would not cause anyone discomfort.

It also just occurred to me that the major discomfort anyone reading my posts would experience would be the result of my extremely long sentences. I'll try to use more of the little bag of capitals and periods I have here.