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Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[judah]

Hello everybody,

I thought that I would take a moment to introduce myself. I've been coming around and reading this stuff for a couple of years now and I thought I'd finally introduce myself.

I started attending a GCC in Des Moines when I started college. As a Christian that was eager to get connected with a church, people didn't try very hard to woo me because I was basically won. The fellowship on campus that was sponsored by the church was the most active one on campus at that point, so it just made sense to me to get involved.

I got into he routine fairly easily. I went to church on Sunday, attended the weekly service on campus, went to weekly bible studies, occasionally went to the big group hang-outs that were constantly being planned, went on mission trips during spring break, attended what conferences I could that didn't clash with school or work and basically had a blast. I learned a lot about God and myself and what it was like to be in constant fellowship with other believers.

As I grew and matured, I started seeing some things that the other believers around me were doing that I didn't necessarily agree with (with regard to commitments, dating, relationships) and when I came across such behaviors, I stayed away from those particular people and pursued other friendships with people that had more similar convictions that I held. Through my time in college, I stayed true to my convictions and developed some new ones.

I graduated from college a couple of years ago and continued to attend the church, getting involved with the young adult ministry where I have found there are a lot less people that I disagreed with and a lot more people that had healthier convictions about the stuff I mentioned above.

So that's the position that I'm currently in.

[Linda]

I graduated from college a couple of years ago and continued to attend the church, getting involved with the young adult ministry where I have found there are a lot less people that I disagreed with and a lot more people that had healthier convictions about the stuff I mentioned above.

Welcome. Glad things are going well for you. I'm just curious, what is your opinion of the national events like Faithwalkers where commitment for life to the church/movement, "swerver", etc. is taught? Do you feel that teaching like this could be misleading to new believers who were not as rooted in their faith as you were when they began attending?

[AgathaL'Orange]

Welcome!  May I ask where you were from originally?

[EverAStudent]

Welcome to the forum!

One of the things GC did well was to get people active about the business of the gospel, to be out there daily and unashamed. 

[judah]

Thanks for the welcome everybody.

Linda,
I don't agree with everything that is taught at the national or regional conferences. The things I disagree with the most are the commitment for life messages because it does imply a rather elitist attitude. I think that it's important that people are willing to have different convictions so that newer believers see that they don't have to have the same convictions as the people that are standing up on the stage.

Agatha,
I hope you don't mind but I'm not going to answer that question yet because to do so would make my identity pretty obvious to some people and I would like to preserve my anonymity for now. 

[Linda]

I understand that you want to show others that there is freedom in Christ, however, don't you think that new believers could be deceived by GC leaders who believe and teach things like this:

You know, you're not responsible for leading. You won't- You won't be the person standing before God and giving an account for the church. It's I and the other pastors, we're the ones that are on the hot seat. But not you. You can rest. And since pastors are on the hot seat, and I'll stand some day and give an account before God, God I believe is also gonna give extra grace- extra wisdom to do what we need to do. Now I- I want to encourage you to continue bringing to us your ideas and your criticisms and your input, because we need that but it's what you do after that, it's just so important - just let it go. And rest. And understand that there's a sense of grace and accountability that falls on us but it doesn't fall on you, and you can trust God through it. Trust God that he's working through his design called authority and trust God that just maybe we have a bigger picture than you do...And so even to give the controls over to God, that's hard, but the real kicker here is God is saying, "give the controls over to people that I work through, and these people are fallible, these people make mistakes, these people are weak at times. You-outta work through it anyway," that's what God says.

It seems to me that a church/movement cannot claim to be Protestant and teach the above. Protestants generally believe sola scriptura. GC leaders may say they do, but in teaching and practice, they do not as exemplified by the above statement.

The pastor who gave that teaching also told us that the pastor was the head of the church just like the husband is the head of the family. Excuse me, I believe the Bible teaches that Christ is the head of the Church. Just sayin'...

[Innerlight]

That quote needs to be backed up with scripture, or I would've challenged the speaker, and if it couldn't be backed up, left immediately. 

[Linda]

The Scripture used was the ever popular Hebrews 13:17. I wasn't there, but a friend who was there requested that I listen because it didn't set right with him/her. Hebrews 13:17 out of context is used by many abusive groups.

[MidnightRider]

For handy reference:

Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

[Innerlight]

Yes, I had to go back and re-read it.  I absolutely believe that a pastor should shepherd, counsel, admonish and build up his congregation, and that we should obey and follow his direction, as it relates to Godly and Biblical principles.  However, it is a two-way street, as he must immerse himself in the Word, and correctly teach it, to the best of given spiritual gifts.  If he is saying give the controls of leadership of the flock over to the pastor of the church, well he is the leader.  If he is saying, give the controls of your life over to me.....big problem!

A pastor, deacon, elder, discipler, mentor...whatever, should be able to advise, counsel, lift up and pray with an individual member (when asked, or feels it spirit led).  This is not an invitation to micro-manage every aspect of someone's life.

There is God’s sovereign will, and there is God’s will for my life. I cannot change God will, it is going to happen regardless of what I do. But God’s will for my life is always directed by his word and through his word. A pastor should be helping me along my journey, not plotting my journey out for me.

 
The pastor is not the vicar of the church (Christ’s incarnate representative). The pastor is the shepherd. He lovingly guides his flock to the pasture. The flock eats if it is hungry, and doesn’t if it isn’t. His job is to provide the opportunity. If sheep are lost, he lovingly goes and looks for them. Whether it comes back to the flock is the choice of the sheep that went astray.



My two cents...

 

[Linda]

Well put, Innerlight.

Another thing that now seems blindingly obvious to me relating to Hebrews 13:17, is the question of just who is a legitimate pastor/leader.

What can't be denied in GC churches is that in 1970, a couple of guys put their heads together, decided they were legitimate pastors/apostles, decided that the Book of Acts was a "how to" manual for all churches for all time which meant that they now had the right to appoint all elders because that's what they did in Acts (or at least in many of the churches mentioned in Acts, nowhere does it say that all early churches were governed in this manner). I now realize that if I am going to put myself in the position of being under someone's spiritual authority, I want something more meaningful than a couple of guys who got together 40 years ago, thought they had a novel idea of "doin' church like they did in Acts", thought they were the only people on Earth who ever had this brilliant idea, and decided to "recognize" themselves as elders/apostles.

Besides the issue of what makes a legitimate pastor, there is the issue of authority. The pastor's authority is spiritual. He does not have the right to tell someone where to work, where to live, where to go to church, or how many children to have. He does have the authority to tell them not to sin and we make his job a joy if we obey him and don't sin.

[ISU Alumna]

a couple of guys who got together 40 years ago, thought they had a novel idea of "doin' church like they did in Acts", thought they were the only people on Earth who ever had this brilliant idea, and decided to "recognize" themselves

Such a baby-boomer attitude. Just like those who tried living in communes at the time, or those who sought enlightenment through experimenting with drugs, they were so patently uninterested in finding out what earlier generations had done, that they thought they were the first. No wonder they've remained so averse to any kind of formal theological training, because that would involve developing a grasp of . . . .    . . . . history!

[Innerlight]

Yep, just like the newest political term "progressive", but in reality, it's the same old thing....

[EverAStudent]

I know I have posted on this before, so I will just put the abbreviated version here:

Unlike most of the other times in the New Testament, obey and submit do not mean "obey" and "submit" in English because they are different Greek words in Hebrews 13:17 than used most every where else.  

Substituting better English translations, the passage would read,

"Be convinced by your leaders' teachings, and yield to them for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account [for what they teach and do].  Let them do this with joy, and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you."  

[MarthaH]

I think that is very helpful to have that verse in context (thank you EverAStudent). That instruction is meant to be a blessing to our lives and understood in its proper context, it is just that, a blessing. If properly applied, we can bless those we serve with and serve under. Thanks for the post.

[Linda]

What authority do elders have? God has given them the exclusive rule over God’s people (I Timothy 5:17). Scripture does not designate spiritual authority over God’s people by any men other than elders. It is for that reason, if for no other, that Christians should not minister independent or out from under the authority of the local church oversight. Every believer can and should get direction himself directly from God. He may receive added direction from anyone. But, the men scripture has primarily designated for giving spiritual direction for a believer’s life are his elders. Elders are to be obeyed and submitted to (Hebrews 3:17; I Timothy 5:17; I Corinthians 16:16). They are appointed with the responsibility and authority from God to lead His spiritual family even as parents are to lead physical families.

In Hebrews 13:17 the word "obey" is in the middle voice and means "to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey." The word "submit" is a compound word "to be under" and "yield." In I Timothy 5:17 the word used for elders to "rule" is "to stand before, to lead." The same word is used in I Timothy 3:4 for fathers "ruling" their families. In I Corinthians 16:16 the word "subjection" is primarily a military term, "to rank under, to be in subjection." Like an army with soldiers to their officers. Certainly God’s spiritual army would be worthy of no less allegiance.

However, nowhere in the New Testament does it suggest elders are to rule in the sense of dictatorial domineering over the flock in their charge, but rather just the opposite, with love being examples (I Peter 5:2,3). Only love builds (I Corinthians 8:1). The elders’ authority is given to them for the purpose of building (II Corinthians 10:8; 13:10). New Testament authority works to build believers’ joy (II Corinthians 1:24).

It is interesting to me that even McCotter understood that the Greek word "obey" is a different word in Hebrews, than it is in Colossians where children are to "obey". He points that out and then proceeds to teach the opposite.

Also, notice that McCotter says that the pastor leads the church like the husband leads the family. Must be where our pastor got the idea for the flawed teaching that the pastor is the head of the church like the husband is the head of the family. That can sound great, until you remember what Ephesians says about who the head of the Church is.

For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Ephesians 5:23

[BTDT]

Anyone else notice how this simple greeting thread got hijacked?

Welcome, Judah.  I'm glad that you have found a church home where you feel comfortable, and where you can hold some convictions different from others and still find fellowship.

I don't mean this to be a leading question at all, and I hope it doesn't come across that way.  Is your church a part of GCM (Great Commission Ministries) or GCC (Great Commission Churches)?  Here's the reason I ask: my semi-recent experience with a GCM church was similar to yours, and some other "evidence" presented in this forum has suggested that GCM churches may be less likely to have held onto the "bad stuff" that most of us have lived through.

If you'd rather not answer that question, that's quite OK, of course.

-B

[Linda]

BTDT,
Not sure what you mean by Hijacked. Judah, did a little bit more than an introduce her/himself. I think we acknowledged the introduction and then asked questions to clarify the last three paragraphs. Really, I sincerely want to know how someone can say they only pick and choose the "healthy" parts of a GC church since they are all tied to some pretty unsound national teaching.