Hello...

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[CoyoteUGLY]

it's funny (but not) that as I start typing i find i'm subtly concerned that one of my friends from the church I left will be seeing this thread...  this is the name i use elsewhere on blogs.

I guess that would be ok. Maybe they'd listen & even interact? I spent 15+ years serving there & left in what felt like the dark of night. I'd struggled to resolve (with the 'leaders' of course) a great many concerns over a lot longer time than seems reasonable, but when it came down to it, it seemed obvious that i was welcome to leave.

so I set a date, the last day of my turn to teach SS. I worshiped that morning, slipped into SS & loved those kids. Went back into the sanctuary & looked around, everyone was chatting... i said hello to a few, but they were busy (i had earlier pulled aside an older bro whom i had suggested to the ldrship should take my place among them, and I told him i was leaving). I made my way to the door & turned-around. I looked across the crowd, turned & what, left i guess.

I wasn't sure where to start here, what i described above was end of Feb this year. I've lurked here at the blog off and on for a week or two. Had book marked it long ago...

so i saw the peo & names section, opened a thread & this hit me...

the "unity above doctrine" teaching

arghhh.

i came to join a local GCM church when i decided i should be Baptized after having decided to follow Jesus, it seemed obvious in the Bible, but my Lutheran pastor wouldn't do it, he had rc'd my baptismal records... whatever. So i chatted w/the pastor that dunked me (from the GCM church a friend attended, this guy left a decade ago already) and this guy spoke of UNITY as it relates to Jn 17, that WE should be ONE as Jesus & the Father are One... it struck me deep within, and still does. I BELIEVE this.

There should be ONE flock, with ONE Shepherd... but... we're sinners & i know we do struggle...

I bought the whole pgm i think. All the little particulars of that brand of systematic theo. And among those things I bought the teaching of gifts, that (primarily at least) God was finished with such things (the perfect had come) and the only applicable part of Eph 4 now was pastor/teacher, and the rest should grow into His image...

BUT, was praying with some church friends one day & God latched-hold of me... much study has revealed since that it was a common experience in it's day, simple "prophecy". Not visions of fire & brimstone, but a heart to heart (even face to face, in a way it takes a bit to explain) interaction with God.

Here's where my heart stops and says enough - these folks won't want to hear more, this is forbidden territory, the experience was a demonic manifestation, blah blah... y'know, i don't care if ya don't want to hear more - i need to voice more, and I trust you'll either minister accordingly or bite your toungue for a day or two.

That interaction lasted several hours. I was literally undone, naked before God (figuratively). The over-all message I walked away with was about unity, and about walking that out in a healthier way in our community. It was like He didn't see us as a bunch of groups meeting in seperate building with exclusive doctrines and seperatist mentalities, but that we were one body... i can't begin to put this in words, BUT i mention it because THIS is the real beginning of my hurt with GCM, or at least with our local church...

as far as i know, word of this never went beyond our church walls. In fact, i mentioned it only to my "fellow leaders", having been taught that's the way things work. That I should humbly submit my experience to them for discussion, and i'm cool w/that "the spirit of prophets is subject to..." so i humbly laid-out what I experienced. ANd it was quiet.

I tried harder to get an answer from them about it, where does it fit, how does it apply? Why did God put me through this excrusiating event if it really has no bearing? I began to see things in scripture that didn't fit the GCM paradigm. Thing which seemed to open doors to a greater unity than I'd been taught existed, things that could draw churches across our WHOLE city together to touch lives...

That was 7/10/2004 and till Feb I patiently worked to bring such truths to bear. I was a ldr there, top on the list to be an elder (a particularly impossible thing at this church, long story) but what I had learned had no bearing i guess. My brothers listened, tolerated, and ignored.

Obviously this is getting long, but real-life stories are NOT short. How can i end this for today? Maybe with where I'm AT, NOW.

i'm struggling. Not with sin, but with living day to day. with waking & spending time with God. I have found a church to attend w/my family. My son is preparing for a summer at Biang's. And I'm confused & uncertain.

When i bought the paradigm i knew where I fit, what to do, how to function. I woke at 4am for decades to study, and now if i can roll out of bed and check my pistol blogs it's a good day. My friends would tell me it's punishment i suppose, for being outside the will of God. But I do feel I'm doing His work...

I've lived where I do for 13 years and know almost no one more than a block away. But recently i joined a local Izaac Walton League & have been getting involved & getting to know people -- making friends. I've met more of my neighbors and had deeper spiritual conversations with regular people than i've ever had in "church". I feel like finally I'm DOing the great commission, "AS YOU go, make disciples..." (i understand it says it that way in Gk, but i'm no gk scholar).

but i feel uncertain, confused. My g'pa died last week & I felt that same emotion & began to realize i may actually feel "grief"? These folks WERE my life for nearly 20 years. But now I've been cut-off? No, they wouldn't say that - they were tolerant, patient, enduring, but they made me feel very welcome to leave. To GO and practice my strangeness elsewhere, and to take my doctrines with me.

There was never room for serious discussion on the things I feel God taught me from the Word...

UNITY, is NOT conformity. ANd when I suggested to another ldr that he was only seeking my conformity he denied it vehemently. All the while he insisted my life and service proved my concerns were worth looking-into he was likewise telling me to drop what i was learning and to serve in their way. "conformity"?

I don't intend to rant, but i need to express where I am, who i am, so i can move-on. I am a follower of Jesus, He is my King, and King of all. That pretty much sums it up, now if i could just figure-out why He has walked with me to where I'm at today... or has He? Maybe i've convinced myself of that? What a dumb question, because i do not espouse the systematic philosophies of men (1Cor 2 fits well here) I have denied Jesus? Yet that's what the enemy whispers, in quiet subtle tones that make my hands hang down & my feet feel feeble.

i want to run with the horses.

For years my email signiture was "Lk 12:37-40", WHY now should I feel so unuseful? I long to serve Him, if i can only manage to put that left foot ahead of the right... 

anyway, i will end this thot. And will sign it in a way I set-aside for reasons of felt rejection...
Ahev veshalom! (Hb: love & unity/peace)
-Kelly

(no sense me being anonymous, if they don't like what they read they know my phone number. I love them to this day & will gladly have lunch)

[puff of purple smoke]

Thank you for sharing. 15 years is a long time. I was with GC for only about 3 years and it effected me deeply, so I can only imagine what 15 years would be like.

There was never room for serious discussion on the things I feel God taught me from the Word...

UNITY, is NOT conformity. ANd when I suggested to another ldr that he was only seeking my conformity he denied it vehemently. All the while he insisted my life and service proved my concerns were worth looking-into he was likewise telling me to drop what i was learning and to serve in their way. "conformity"?

You spoke a lot about the unity concept in GC. this is one of their most serious errors and has resulted in a lot of their problems. They refuse to listen to those who disagree with them which prevents them from ever seriously addressing their problems. Truly unfortunate, and widespread throughout the movement.

[saved]

There should be ONE flock, with ONE Shepherd... but... we're sinners & i know we do struggle...

Yes, there should.

I bought the whole pgm i think.

Of course... we all did.  It's easier.  I am astonished at the mental contortions I practiced on myself... I wanted so much to be a good Christian!

BUT, was praying with some church friends one day & God latched-hold of me... much study has revealed since that it was a common experience in it's day, simple "prophecy". Not visions of fire & brimstone, but a heart to heart (even face to face, in a way it takes a bit to explain) interaction with God. ...

That interaction lasted several hours. I was literally undone, naked before God (figuratively). The over-all message I walked away with was about unity, and about walking that out in a healthier way in our community. It was like He didn't see us as a bunch of groups meeting in seperate building with exclusive doctrines and seperatist mentalities, but that we were one body... i can't begin to put this in words, BUT i mention it because THIS is the real beginning of my hurt with GCM, or at least with our local church...

I think that experience was absolutely God, and absolutely real.

I tried harder to get an answer from them about it, where does it fit, how does it apply? Why did God put me through this excrusiating event if it really has no bearing? I began to see things in scripture that didn't fit the GCM paradigm. Thing which seemed to open doors to a greater unity than I'd been taught existed, things that could draw churches across our WHOLE city together to touch lives...

That was 7/10/2004 and till Feb I patiently worked to bring such truths to bear. I was a ldr there, top on the list to be an elder (a particularly impossible thing at this church, long story) but what I had learned had no bearing i guess. My brothers listened, tolerated, and ignored.

It has bearing... if nothing else, it opened your eyes to the reality of the church you were in.

i'm struggling. Not with sin, but with living day to day. with waking & spending time with God. I have found a church to attend w/my family. My son is preparing for a summer at Biang's. And I'm confused & uncertain.

When i bought the paradigm i knew where I fit, what to do, how to function. I woke at 4am for decades to study, and now if i can roll out of bed and check my pistol blogs it's a good day. My friends would tell me it's punishment i suppose, for being outside the will of God. But I do feel I'm doing His work...

I think that's why many buy into the GCx (or any other abusive church situation)... it's all cut and dry and you know exactly where you stand.  But life is not simple, it's very, very complex.  And God is not one dimensional... throughout history He's acted in ways that are dramatically different from what He's done before.  He defies being typecasted, boxed up, and parceled out.  We humans want God, and life, to be all neat and tidy, but they simply aren't.

I think the fact that things are uncertain is far more real.  We can no longer depend on ourselves and our righteousness... i.e., "I get up and pray every morning at 4 a.m., I know I'm good with God" versus "God is gracious and here I am, a sinner, who can't even be consistent with a quiet time."  The Bible is clear on whose prayer God prefers... the Pharisee sure looked good but his heart was full of pride.  The humble sinner, though, was the one with God's ear.

It means living with uncertainty, choosing to trust him daily, hourly, minute-ly.  That's a lot harder than conforming to GCx's standards!  It means seeking Him for approval and acceptance instead of elders, leaders, or friends.  Definitely harder!  It means discovering that that are, and have been through the ages, a wide variety of Christian experience which have equal validity and worth, and accepting the wild diversity of human-God interaction.

No, not easy.  But not fake...  viscerally real. 

but i feel uncertain, confused. My g'pa died last week & I felt that same emotion & began to realize i may actually feel "grief"? These folks WERE my life for nearly 20 years. But now I've been cut-off? No, they wouldn't say that - they were tolerant, patient, enduring, but they made me feel very welcome to leave. To GO and practice my strangeness elsewhere, and to take my doctrines with me.

There was never room for serious discussion on the things I feel God taught me from the Word...

I have been learning the past few years the importance of grieving.  Yes, you actually feel grief, and should.  I went through a fabulous "Inner Healing" process that includes grieving hurts from the past, writing laments about them, taking them to the Lord, crying, forgiving, and finding healing through Jesus.  It's not an easy process, but it has wonderful results.

What I've learned from that is when we have a loss, even a small, apparently insignificant one, we need to grieve.  You've lost so much!  You lost friends, associates, companions.  You've lost the security of a stable, predictable system.  You've lost trust in people you thought could guide you wisely.  You've lost your job(s), including interaction with kids you love.  And other losses as well, I'm sure, which are yours to define. 

When we have hurts, we also grieve.  And you clearly have been wronged and hurt here, by insensitivity, unresponsiveness, by being cast aside and shunted away... oooh!  I'm hurt on your behalf!

UNITY, is NOT conformity. ANd when I suggested to another ldr that he was only seeking my conformity he denied it vehemently. All the while he insisted my life and service proved my concerns were worth looking-into he was likewise telling me to drop what i was learning and to serve in their way. "conformity"?

Remember, he too has drunk (drank?) the Kool-Aid.  Unlike you God hasn't laid him out flat with an experience he can't deny.  His world is neat and orderly and you're shaking it up.  Poor guy... eventually the house of cards will topple...

I don't intend to rant, but i need to express where I am, who i am, so i can move-on.

I think it's one of the best purposes of this forum...

I am a follower of Jesus, He is my King, and King of all. That pretty much sums it up, now if i could just figure-out why He has walked with me to where I'm at today... or has He? Maybe i've convinced myself of that? What a dumb question, because i do not espouse the systematic philosophies of men (1Cor 2 fits well here) I have denied Jesus? Yet that's what the enemy whispers, in quiet subtle tones that make my hands hang down & my feet feel feeble.

Personally, I think 1) of course He's walked with you to where you are today... He is faithful.  2) Of course you haven't denied Jesus.  You've done no more than follow where He's led you.  3) Obviously you're not at the end of the road yet.  So you're in an odd spot... when we take trips the scenery we pass through does not always resemble where we end up.

i want to run with the horses.

Me, too!!

For years my email signiture was "Lk 12:37-40", WHY now should I feel so unuseful? I long to serve Him, if i can only manage to put that left foot ahead of the right... 

Who measures what is useful?  If I stay home all day and change diapers am I less useful than someone who travels overseas and shares the gospel?  I think we are most "useful" when we do the work that God has set before us for each day, whatever that work might be.  The glamorous jobs get attention and praise, and you can set yourself up to feel good for the great work you're doing for the Lord... Vanity!!!  But if we can serve in humility and silence, invisible, yet useful to our family, neighbors, and community... seems to me that God can really use people like that...

anyway, i will end this thot. And will sign it in a way I set-aside for reasons of felt rejection...
Ahev veshalom! (Hb: love & unity/peace)

I think that's lovely.

Shalom...

[ustawannabee]

Welcome, we grieve with you as only people who have been there can do. here praying you find healing

[nolongergci]

Welcome! May God grant you strength and healing.

I had been so "brainwashed" that I thought pleasing God and pleasing Jim McCotter (and other leaders, but Jim was the true leader. The rest were yes men.) were the same thing. It has taken years to get over that thought.
The thing is, that thought was not directly taught, but was a strong impression. If you don't do what is "counseled" you can't be in God's will and so can't be pleasing to Him. This while being taught that there is no mediator between God and man except Christ. But Jim put himself as that mediator, interpreting God's will for others.

There has been much healing, but sometimes, even now, I find myself falling into the same thought patterns. I long to be totally free!

[CoyoteUGLY]

Wow, where do i start with my reply?

You've all said a great many healing things, thanks for the encouragement.

It means living with uncertainty, choosing to trust him daily, hourly, minute-ly.  That's a lot harder than conforming to GCx's standards!  It means seeking Him for approval and acceptance instead of elders, leaders, or friends.  Definitely harder!  It means discovering that that are, and have been through the ages, a wide variety of Christian experience which have equal validity and worth, and accepting the wild diversity of human-God interaction.

No, not easy.  But not fake...  viscerally real.

If i stop right now, in this unfamiliar setting & with all my confusion, and look-back... i really do believe i like this real-life better. For years prior to leaving, i'd been talking about Jn 5:44

"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

Yet more and more it seemed that was the course of where my life was at.

Remember, he too has drunk (drank?) the Kool-Aid.  Unlike you God hasn't laid him out flat with an experience he can't deny.  His world is neat and orderly and you're shaking it up.  Poor guy... eventually the house of cards will topple...

Maybe we could pray for him? This guy was truly one of the best friends I had there, but also prolly the one I had more head to head confrontation with. He at least tried to debate w/me a little, even if it was only in attempt to change my mind & not to see if God might be bigger than we thought. They plan to lay hands on him next week to become an elder. (which is particularly odd at this church, 30+ years & they have never raised-up one pastor... long story)

Thanks all!
Ahev v'shalom

[Agatha]

Coyote, we had the same experience with having attended a gc church for so long that we had effectively eliminated friendships with anyone "outside".  It was only the past couple of years that we've began to have enough time to get to know our community!  It sounds funny, but I felt like I haven't even known the city I've lived in for 14 years!  We were so caught up and busy with small groups, church activities, and ministries that we didn't have time to even know our neighbors.  When we left, it was as if I had moved to a completely different city.  Now I knew different people, went to more places, joined new groups, attended lots of churches.  It was so freeing.  I hope that you experience the freedom as well.

[CoyoteUGLY]

... When we left, it was as if I had moved to a completely different city.  Now I knew different people, went to more places, joined new groups, attended lots of churches.  It was so freeing.  I hope that you experience the freedom as well.

Yes! Exactly. I am beginning to experience that freedom, even though it feels a bit funny. But it's tough working past the struggle to push peo away at church, or to not let them get too close. The pastor where we're attending now suggested we join the recovery group that's starting soon.

I spoke to a gal b4 church, we knew her through some other friends & they just left a different church to attend this one. I was floored when she said the place they left actually brought them up front, prayed with them, and sort of sent them off with good tidings (they left for doctrinal reasons). They even had a pot-luck! We snuck-away in the night... it felt like. The leaders knoew we were going, but it was good-riddance i guess. 

[exshep]

I had a chance to skim your post.  I can relate.  It takes time to recover. You are with good people.  I only check in briefly from time to time.  In any case, glad you are here.

[Jack]

Hello to all from former GCMer in NC.  I was at LT in NMB, SC in 93 & 93, and I never heard about the 1991 statement of weakness or whatever it was called until I stumbled across this forum a couple of weeks ago.  Anybody else here at those LT's?  I left the church in 1994 and never looked back.  I haven't heard from anyone from my local church since then (I guess they don't need me anymore, I'm no longer revelant to them).  I did hear from a friend who attempted to go on staff  in florida soon after I left, but no contact since then.  I did find out (google is my friend) that one of my former roommates at LT is now a pastor at a GCx church (in Orlando?)  I've not been to any church service since 1994, and still don't have any desire to do so.  I feel most churches have become too politicised.  (Anti-abortion does not = pro-life)
When I left the church I was really struggling with life.  I had just dropped out of college, and have struggled with clinical depression off and on since that time.  I somewhat blame the church for this, I also blame myself.  I always tried to defend GCM in my mind, trying to convince myself that they weren't a cult, but I realize now that this was futile.  Thank God for my parents, they have shown me what love really is in the years that have passed.
I've been lurking on this forum for the past month or two, and have just now decided to post.  I read a post by Amyk somewhere on here, and I can relate.  If you're still checking this site please reply, or e-mail me.  I too feel your pain.
I guess all of what I'm saying boils down to this:  I felt abandoned, thrown by the wayside.  I think I'm pretty much over it all now.  I've moved on.  Maybe by typing all of this, I'm seeking closure.
Thanks,
Jack
PS please, anyone, feel free to contact me by the e-mail I provided when I registered if you would like to contact me privately.  I don't know exactly how this forum worksm but feel free to contact me.

[CoyoteUGLY]

I PMed you Jack, check you "MY MESSAGES" link above...

[Jim]

I was in the church for about 5 years back in the 80's.   Be patient, moving on may take time.  You will probably find the many of the decisions you make will be guided by your negative experience with GC.  Friendships are hard won, and take time.  My wife and I floundered around for a long while before finding a church we liked, but God was blessing our family the whole time.

[exshep]

I was in the church for about 5 years back in the 80's.   Be patient, moving on may take time.  You will probably find the many of the decisions you make will be guided by your negative experience with GC.  Friendships are hard won, and take time.  My wife and I floundered around for a long while before finding a church we liked, but God was blessing our family the whole time.

Jim is right. Recovery takes time, but it is worth it. Take it one day at a time.  Today I am in a well respected evangelical church in the Christian Reformed tradition.  There is life after GC. 

[everythingchrist]

Our family is leaving the GC church after several years of ups and downs.  Mostly leaving because of lack of scriptural teaching (no expository) and the friendly at-first, then "no where to be found" friends.  Too much talk about tithing, who is and isn't saved at church, and generally guilt-producing sense of not being good enough. We've given up.  This is a growth-movement, seeker-sensitive and man-centered church.  Not a cult to my understanding.  I hope they change as times are coming and no one will be reading the bible from the pulpit within 20 years (if that long). 

I believe this is the church of Laodocia where its all about programming, marketing, and attractants.  Sad to me, but we no longer can tolerate this.  Being seeker friendly is great....but no communion except on a weekday when only "believers" attend as not to offend seekers. 

I'm old and too tired.  Only Christ saves, and He is to be my all-in-all.  That's the lesson and gift here.

[ANobody]

Dear everythingchrist,

It is sad that GC continues its long history of ignorance toward the Bible.  It is wonderful that the Holy Spirit has caused you to recognize it and to take action.

It is hard to find a "good" church these days.  There are fewer and fewer.  But persist in the search and God will almost certainly bring you to a place where He will be pleased to grow you and the family.