Hello, Daughter has abandoned home-The Downtown Church

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[wjaes]

Hi there,
I did a google search of Des Moines + "The Downtown Church" and cult, and this forum came up. My 23 y/o daughter was originally baptized Catholic (her dad and I met at Catholic school), but also attended a Baptist church with me when she was little and Plymouth Congregational Church (not sure of denomination) with her dad. She has changed her college major 3 times and is not enrolled in school to be a nurse.  She and I agreed that she could stay at home rent-free and help me with her 13 y/o brother who is on the autism spectrum. I am a single parent.

For the last 2 years, she has attended (and was baptized a 1 1/2 ago) with the Downtown Church in Des Moines, Iowa. Since attending this church, she and I have had a weaker and more embattled relationship. She is with "church people" at least 4-5 days/nights a week. She has said angry things to me I have never heard come out of her mouth such as, "You are a sinner and had my brother out of wedlock", "you don't like Christians" (I did have her brother out of wedlock but why yell it at the top of her lungs with her brother listening and I do like Christians, consider myself one but don't like hypocrites).  3 weeks ago, she came home and announced she was moving, that she and I aren't close, have never been close and will never be close. She left and I haven't heard from her since. I hope she is okay and have been questioning for the last year or so if this church is a cult. It seems that she is becoming brainwashed and I don't know her anymore. I love her and am scared. Any ideas and/or assistance would be great.

[repent n believe]

Dear Dan Rude, Luke Hukee, or any other pastor from WCCC-The Downtown Church,

Please consider this a serious issue at your church and help there be reconciliation between the mom and the daughter. All these things happening at the church is you as a church not trying to be different from the world but trying to do things completely different from the biblical church (for what you are considered a cult).

[wjaes]

Thanks for posting repent n believe and yes, if the pastors at the church could see how damaging this is to many young people and their families it would be helpful.  My daughter is a good person, but sort of a born follower.  She is feeling a lot of love and support with this group, but she is doing this at the expense of relationships with her dad (my ex), her brothers, her cousins and myself.  She has never put her hands on me in anger, but has did this twice since attending The Downtown Church.  Neither time, did she look shocked and/or remorseful and I will admit, I was questioning her loyalty to this group and the number of hours she was spending going there. In fact, it was 2 summers ago when the church did their first "Mission to the City". I asked her at the end of a day what did she do that day to contribute to helping the city and she said that she and others in her bible study painted the church. I was shocked to say the least and asked how painting her own church could be considered a mission to the city,that it sounded pretty self-serving to me and a little bit hypocritical. She had lots of reasons why it wasn't and in the end put her hands on me and said some really horrible things to me. 

My heart is aching. I have encouraged the few friends she talks to occasionally (who used to be her best friends) to not lose touch with her, to try to get together occasionally.  I am afraid that she will be completely sucked up by these folks. 

Has anyone here had any experiences similar to mine? Does anyone have any words of widsom, suggestions on what to do?

[AgathaL'Orange]

This story sounds REALLY familiar to me.  Did we have another post similar? 

Wow, I am really sorry for what you are going through.  That is very difficult. I hope you can work things out. 

The DTC does not seem to value people's lives outside of the church.  They have done other things like this by encouraging people to give up everything, a very successful job, life, family, to move across the country and live with a DTC pastor and work at Starbucks.

 

So far, it may still work out.  Hang in there.

[AgathaL'Orange]

OH!  I remember why your story sounds familiar.  There was a situation last year in Minnesota (different church, different organization) where a controlling leader insisted that a son (who was being paid to help care for his brother with special needs) leave his home against his parents' wishes.

Personally as the mom of a child with very severe special needs, I have found that many do not understand the importance of our special kids.  It's often viewed as a burden, people don't get it. 

Anyway, the post I was thinking about was not found here, but it's why your post sounded familiar.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I don't know what to do.  I have no good advice!  I wouldn't burn any bridges with her for sure.  And I would try to make sure that you and your son are in a safe situation without her assistance. 

There is such a double standard in this church of "loyalty".  Be loyal to the church but don't be loyal to your own family.  To me, marriage and family is the place to display loyalty.  I don't think that they emphasize this enough.  Our families are the building blocks of church and society.  GC claims to promote family, but in my opinion they allow a lot of "unfamily" things like excessive time apart, emphasis on church service, believing that "serving the Lord" is somehow different than being there for your family.

It's just dysfunction, IMO.  I've heard that Lutheran Church of Hope in that area has a great program for families who have kids and adults with special issues.  You might give them a call and see if you can get any help there.  Please keep us posted.

[wjaes]

Thanks so much Agatha for your advice.

[Linda]

Welcome, wjaes.

Reading your story made me truly sad. I am sorry for the way your daughter's involvement in a GC church has damaged your relationship with her.

There is such a double standard in this church of "loyalty".  Be loyal to the church but don't be loyal to your own family.  To me, marriage and family is the place to display loyalty.  I don't think that they emphasize this enough.  Our families are the building blocks of church and society.  GC claims to promote family, but in my opinion they allow a lot of "unfamily" things like excessive time apart, emphasis on church service, believing that "serving the Lord" is somehow different than being there for your family.

Amen, Agatha!

GC leaders reading this, please stop this. What you are doing is wrong and is a violation of the promise you made in the 1991 Statement of Error. Remember Project Care? It would appear you just care about how you look on paper to outsiders. You don't seem to care that families are still being hurt. What you are doing is NOT the Gospel. Here is what you apologized for 20 years ago. You are still doing this:

Our failure to stress to college students the value of pursuing their education was also, in some cases, a failure on our part to help those students honor the parents who had sent them to college. Overall, we tried to strongly encourage students to love and respect their parents, and to view their parents as God's authorities in their lives. However, by not actively supporting the commitment the parents had made to a college education for their child, we implicitly encouraged some students to choose to leave college, contrary to the wishes of their parents. This undoubtedly caused some strife within those families and contributed to strained relationships between students and their parents. For this we apologize.

We began to address this problem in our churches in the mid-to-late seventies, and currently there is, in our churches located in college communities, a strong emphasis on pursuing a college education and the importance of excelling in that pursuit. Indeed, our mission organization, Great Commission Ministries, requires that those who wish to minister on campus as staff members have a college degree.

Concerning a student's relationship to his or her parents, Great Commission Ministries staff persons are encouraged to help students learn to honor and respect their parents and to publicly teach the Bible's clear instruction on the subject. In addition, our staff personnel manual provides information on how student leaders can help students to love and respect their parents in practical ways. Finally, seminars on the subject are given at staff training conferences.

Honoring your father and mother is one of the 10 commandments. Any group that interferes with this is doing a bad thing no matter how good they make it sound. No matter what else they are doing. They will quote Matthew 10:37 till they are blue in the face to rationalize children committing to Great Commission (which in their minds is equal to commitment to God), but they leave out Mark 7:11-13 (But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, 'Sorry, I can't help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I could have given to you.' You let them disregard their needy parents. As such, you break the law of God in order to protect your own tradition. NLT).

One thing I have noticed is a twist in thinking that happens in high control groups, cults, and false religions. The Bible teaches honoring parents. Sometimes becoming a Christian causes a division between children and their parents. An extreme example of this would be religions that teach disowning children (or even killing children) who choose a different religion. You will notice, however, in situations like this, the "disowning" is not being done by the Christian. Christianity is different. Christians love their parents. They serve their parents. They care for their parents. Sometimes they live miles away, but they stay in touch. They help when there is a need.

In the Error Statement, GC states that they will encourage students to love and respect their parents in practical ways. Well, GC boys, here is a great opportunity to put "Project Care" into action. Rather than offering students the GC church-serving task of painting the vestibule, why don't you encourage them to give their parents a call on the phone, or help with the siblings, or offer a hug and a bit of encouragement to their parents? Or, come home for Christmas and spend time with their extended family?

[EverAStudent]

Dear wjaes,

I am very grieved for you.  As a parent myself, also disowned and shunned by a daughter who embraced a false "Christian" theology, your pain is heavy on my heart.  

Even though evangelical Christians and Catholics differ on some important things such differences do NOT allow any adult child to set aside the Bible.  Adult children are to love, honor, and care for their parents throughout their lives, even caring for them in their old age if the need exists.  It is impossible for an evangelical Christian child to do any of those three righteous things if they have shunned their parents.  That is a shame, a sin, and a wretchedly horrible testimony with regard to the name and reputation of Christ.

Something that may help (although it is a long shot and has less chance of succeeding than failing) is to contact a Nouthetic Bible Counselor and appeal for assistance in mediating between yourself and your daughter.  Nouthetic (NANC certified) counselors are trained at mediating in interpersonal and parent-child disputes.  You can try to find such a biblical counselor near you by going to this website http://nanc.org/Directory.aspx .  Of course, your adult child may not cooperate, but then, she may.  

Blessings.

[LucyB]

You might want to consider that some of the problems in your relationship with your daughter are unrelated the the church. If your daughter is an adult, she may join a church that you don't approve of.  That is her choice. She may change her major three or four or more times. That is normal behavior for a young adult. If she spent her Saturday painting her church, she probably felt pretty good about herself--and she should!  That is awesome!  She should come home and have her mother support her and be proud of her. I've been involved with a lot of mission projects, and it is not unusual to have people paint or work on the church, especially if a lot of people show up. You can't send 50 young adults to Evelyn Davis Park; it would scare the kids away. You are upset because you need her help with your son. I recommend that the next time you see her, tell her how much you appreciate all that she has done for you. Be positive, positive, positive. Apologize for being negative. Do not under any circumstances criticize her, her friends or her church. As long as she is safe, and obeying the law, support her. You will get through this. 

[wjaes]

Lucy,
So sorry that you perceived that this is concern I have as self-serving and/or not focused on my true concern for HER as a person (not what she can do for me).  I love this girl and she knows that. I have thanked her for being who she is and have never wanted her to not go after and be involved with things, people and activities that she is interested in. In addition, I do support her.

The painting the church activity was advertised as an opportunity for people in her church to serve the community (it as in the paper and on the TV) in which they live. I would agree that 50 people at Evelyn Davis park would be overwhelming, but what about neighborhood gardens, elderly who need their lawn mowed or their house painted (maybe a picture hung..), shelters of various sorts.

The painting the church is pale in comparison with my concerns. Anything that we do too much of can be harmful. Dropping other people she has associated with all of her life is not typical. Intense anger and defensiveness regarding her beliefs is scary. 

I probably shouldn't have even mentioned her brother in the post as my concern isn't for what I have lost that she can do for me (or him) but losing her completely and for that matter...her losing her.

[Linda]

wjaes, What I'm hearing is that you want to love and protect your daughter unconditionally, but do not want to condone behavior that you think might be doing her harm. You, who know her best (better than her pastors, certainly!), see some negative changes. This is what accountability is all about. Noticing negative personality and behavior changes and helping people. I agree with Agatha about not burning any bridges (locking her out, etc.).

It seems highly unusual to have not heard from her and for her to leave (with a car in your name that you pay to insure!) and be out of contact with you for 3 weeks. As I understand it, the terms of her living with you rent free were that she would help out with her brother on occasion. This seems reasonable. It doesn't sound to me like you were "using" her. Frankly, it sounds like a deal to me! Not only is she privileged to spend time with her mom and brother, she gets free rent and a car and probably a meal or two!

I hesitate to give detailed advice since I don't know all the circumstances, but it seems reasonable to try to get in touch to make sure she is safe. It also seems reasonable to ask for the car back.

You mentioned that you both attended a Baptist church with her for a while. Would there be a pastor at that church you could share this with? Perhaps you could explain your situation to him and he could help.

I am giving a link to my husband's blog post about our experience with a GC church in the Minneapolis area. We attended for 10 years, but left when our high school daughter was asked at a conference called HSLT (High School Leadership Training--which is a misnomer, it should be HSFT, High School Followership Training) to commit to her Great Commission church FOR LIFE! The thing is, for the most part, the pastors are really nice people who love the Lord. They are just indoctrinated in the GC system to the point that they can't see their error and that causes them to perpetuate it.

Here's the link. It sums up nicely our experience and why we left. I know someone who gave it to her pastor to explain why they left and it helped him understand. I thought it might help you if you get counsel from a pastor and want him to understand this is a group to be concerned about.

http://tmdugan.blogspot.com/2006/06/church-what-is-essential-mere-church.html

[secret]

I too have lost a child to the DTC.  Their family now, is the DTC!  We were a single parent family, but I tried my best to instill proper Christian values in my children. Our blood family was (and still is for all but this child) a HUGE part of our life.  So much was made possible due to our family. Yet, I think it has been well over a year since this child has communicated with any member of the family, aside from me, and a sibling. And then we only hear from them when there is news about them, never are we asked how are you, what’s going on in your life.  I was even once given a schedule of how this childs life was being conducted.  5 nights is church events/gathering, one night is “date night” with spouse and one night is time for them to be by themselves to reflect and pray. I have not even seen my child for more than 5 minutes since Christmas, and we are less than 20 miles from one another.
As stated in a previous post: Concerning a student's relationship to his or her parents, Great Commission Ministries staff persons are encouraged to help students learn to honor and respect their parents and to publicly teach the Bible's clear instruction on the subject.  The DTC does NOT follow this.  Instead, they believe that it is their “mission” to, as quoted directly from my child: “the Lord has made it very clear that the young people of des moines are those people i'm supposed to be laboring to no end for………. this isn't some sort of self righteous excuse, and this is going to have implications on many of my relationships”  Part of the DTC’s Who We Are statement reads: We are members of the same body and need one another caring for those who have physical, financial, or emotional needs; loyally supporting and defending one another’s reputations; committing ourselves to one another’s spiritual growth; and developing close, edifying friendships. Part of their What we Believe statement: Our target therefore is the unchurched.
Nowhere does it mention anything about family on their website, it’s only about them, and what they can do for themselves. Signs of resembling an Occult that I see prominently are that several members of the same family are leading branches of this “church”, and they encourage their members to immediately find a spouse within the “church family” and start creating children.  I’ve spoken to one individual who was taken on as one their “projects”.  This person was moved into a once of their family homes, so as to live with and be taught by current members to become one of them and start leading a better life.  However, refusing to give up family and current friendships, they moved out of the church house, and broke all ties with members of the DTC. They have approached this person again, telling them that living with family will not do them any good but to bring themselves back into a church house so the DTC members can get them back into their way of life. 

I truly feel you fear, anxiety and hurt wjaes, and I too, am at a loss as to how to get my child back. Never did I imagine that I would be concerned about my child being involved with an occult, I would be please if it were truely a church!

[AgathaL'Orange]

I too have lost a child to the DTC.  Their family now, is the DTC!  We were a single parent family, but I tried my best to instill proper Christian values in my children. Our blood family was (and still is for all but this child) a HUGE part of our life.  So much was made possible due to our family. Yet, I think it has been well over a year since this child has communicated with any member of the family, aside from me, and a sibling. And then we only hear from them when there is news about them, never are we asked how are you, what’s going on in your life.  I was even once given a schedule of how this childs life was being conducted.  5 nights is church events/gathering, one night is “date night” with spouse and one night is time for them to be by themselves to reflect and pray. I have not even seen my child for more than 5 minutes since Christmas, and we are less than 20 miles from one another.
As stated in a previous post: Concerning a student's relationship to his or her parents, Great Commission Ministries staff persons are encouraged to help students learn to honor and respect their parents and to publicly teach the Bible's clear instruction on the subject.  The DTC does NOT follow this.  Instead, they believe that it is their “mission” to, as quoted directly from my child: “the Lord has made it very clear that the young people of des moines are those people i'm supposed to be laboring to no end for………. this isn't some sort of self righteous excuse, and this is going to have implications on many of my relationships”  Part of the DTC’s Who We Are statement reads: We are members of the same body and need one another caring for those who have physical, financial, or emotional needs; loyally supporting and defending one another’s reputations; committing ourselves to one another’s spiritual growth; and developing close, edifying friendships. Part of their What we Believe statement: Our target therefore is the unchurched.
Nowhere does it mention anything about family on their website, it’s only about them, and what they can do for themselves. Signs of resembling an Occult that I see prominently are that several members of the same family are leading branches of this “church”, and they encourage their members to immediately find a spouse within the “church family” and start creating children.  I’ve spoken to one individual who was taken on as one their “projects”.  This person was moved into a once of their family homes, so as to live with and be taught by current members to become one of them and start leading a better life.  However, refusing to give up family and current friendships, they moved out of the church house, and broke all ties with members of the DTC. They have approached this person again, telling them that living with family will not do them any good but to bring themselves back into a church house so the DTC members can get them back into their way of life. 

I truly feel you fear, anxiety and hurt wjaes, and I too, am at a loss as to how to get my child back. Never did I imagine that I would be concerned about my child being involved with an occult, I would be please if it were truely a church!

I read this, and I can feel your pain and understand it as I knew these people once in my life very well.  I don't think anyone can truly understand unless they have lived it.  On paper, it doesn't sound, "that bad", that's why none of our non GC friends (there weren't too many anyway) and family (except one couple who raised a warning flag which we ignored) got how bad it was.  It sounds like the "ideal" way to be an evangelical, but in practice it is horribly isolating from normal community life.  There is no time to know your neighbors or people you work with outside of your mission to them. 

I'm so sorry that you are experiencing this, but please do not give up hope.  It's not too late, and perhaps in time the truth will be known. 

I too am concerned about the "family legacy" of this group.  I find it tragic that these adult children essentially gave up everything to please parents and to follow in their footsteps.  I believe that they have been brainwashed from a very young age to complete obedience to leaders and to "the mission".  No talents outside of this will be realized.  No intellectual giftedness, no entrepreneurial skills, no artistic talents, no doctors, no lawyers, no business people... they will all be reigning over their little local GC church commandeering the lives of people who should also be living their own lives. 

I'd personally like to move away from this area because the group is growing, and I don't like to drive past their church almost daily.  I'd rather live near the Scientologists, honestly. At least they don't try to be a part of Christianity.

[Neverbeengcm]

I am sorry to hear about the loss of family to any parent to an over-zealous religious sect like the Great Commission. I wish there was some way to politely ask the Great Commission to release the control they have and to give our loved ones back to us. Unfortunately, That is not likely to happen.  It has been my experience that talking to GC Pators/leaders about the problems you are having with their control over loved ones only brings a strange kind of defensiveness in return. They will use any means necessary to keep control over the one they suspect they may lose back to the family that feels the loss.  

I was in your shoes a few times in my life. The first pastor I talked to in a similar circumstance met me in my home to talk. I told him that his church was taking my loved one from me.  She was not the same loving child at home since she joined his church. A part of her that was alive and free was now gone.  While I calmly talked to him he would knod his head as if he actually cared and understood the hurt he was causing.  At the same time he had a wierd fake smile on on his face.  It was like talking to a store manican.   He returned my concerns with some strange twisted logic and some warped Bible verse interpretations about how we have to serve our church for life. I am not the type of person who gets angry easily.  But, I wanted to punch him in the face.  He maintained a pretend to care attitude and used rehersed phrases that were obvioulsy designed to appease me.  He really did not plan on changing anything or releasing my loved one from his control...and he didn't. My loved one remained a child in the cult and moved further away from me as a result of any attempts to talk to her about it.

Instead of recognizing the hurt their controlling cult policies have wrot upon your family, they will instead try to recruit you into their group. The twisted thinking runs deep into the core of those poor souls who have been fully assimilated into the Great Commission. They have such a strange elitist attitude that does not allow them to even begin to think that it is wrong to separate an adult/child from his/her family. They believe that we all should submit the control of our lives to the church and, even more alarmingly, to the church leaders.  Their belief that their members all have a God-commanded responsibuility to be loyal to only the great commission is dangerous and unhealthy.  Daily controlled church activities and misguided false teachings confuse the young minds and adults who are exposed to it.  The church members begin to have a support group  of only other GC members. They are alienated from former friends and loved ones more and more each day.  It's so easy for us to see the error in this from the outside.  The poor kids who have been brainwashed and controlled by the church leadership have GC blinders on that make it hard for them to see.  
 
My advice to you is to continue to love your child unconditionally and hope/pray that they eventually see the error of their ways.  Talking to your child about how wrong it is to be in the cult oftentimes brings them further into it. After they leave you to return back to their GC leaders, they will be subjected to a subtle or a stern re-assimilation process that is confusing enough to make them question anything you may have discussed with them.  Contact your children often, but not too often, to let them know you love them and that you will always be there for them. Give them a safe place to return to.  

I hope this helps you in some small way.  I really do feel your pain.  God Bless

[Captein]

Hi, sorry for the late reply (I found this site recently), but how are things going now?

[araignee19]

I'm also sorry for the late reply, but I wanted to add a bit of my own story to encourage you. I was heavily involved with a GC church for 5 years. I would consider myself to have been saved while attending. I gave everything I had to it, and I believe my relationship with family was hurt in the process. I still spoke with them and spent time with them, but it was often so I could "serve" them and "try to bring them closer to God" (they are all already Christians, but I thought they needed faith like I saw at GC). Through some very painful circumstances, God woke me up to the errors in the church. After more painful circumstances, he jerked me out of it (feet partially dragging from reluctance and fear, partially too tired to walk out myself). It's been about 16 months now since I left now. It was hard leaving, and even harder adjusting and healing. But I can honestly say I am doing better, and moving forward. I moved to a new city (twice, actually, for work), have a great job, found a good church and am slowly making new, and true, friends, and stay in touch with my family on a regular basis. There is still hurt I will have to work through, but I can see God using what happened in good ways. I have learned a lot and I know my faith will be stronger and better in the end.

I think a lot of people on here have similar stories. I also think even if she gets completely "sucked into" this church, know that God can use it for good and can take her out of it when he wants. Keep praying for her and trying to spend time with her, even if for every 100 times you try to call, she responds once. Let her know you will always be there if she decides to leave, and somehow let her know you won't tell her "I told you so." I personally felt (and still do feel) a lot of shame for having fallen for something like this. But it helps to know my family still loves me and supports me.