Hello from a confused member

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[confusedandsearching]

I have heard back from the pastors and their explanation as well as the help that I've received here has gone a long way in me making up my mind that I'm going to continue on at my church. I'm spending some time in prayer and in the Word tonight but I think that I have made up my mind.

Thank you for all your support here. It has definitely helped a lot in the process.

I'll probably not be posting anymore here. Just PMs here and there.

[Linda]

You said you were going to inquire about Jim McCotter and how they view him and his theory of apostleship. Just curious as to what they said. God bless you and help you see clearly as you stay in His Word.

[Linda]

Thinking about the McCotter years and how he established most of the current practices of GC churches, I was trying to remember the discussion we had way back about the excommunications and letters that went back and forth. I believe that, in spite of the 1991 Error Statement, no one ever went back specifically and undid and apologized for them. Am I correct in my thinking?

Also, and I know I've asked this before, but can't find the answer. From the copies of the documents available in Marching to Zion, it looks like those involved in the excommunication of elder Bill Taylor (for suggesting that truth was more important than unity) were: Dennis Clark, Mike Keator, Fred Colvin, Brian Catalano, Dave Gumlia, Jim McCotter, Gary Kellogg, Mike Royal, Herschel Martindale, Rick (I think it's Rick, it's blurry) Harvey, Rob Irving, Dave Bovenmyer, Larry Clemente, Steve Schenberg (name is blurry). We know Jim is gone and has never apologized or taken back the "excommunication". Could someone tell me (again) which of these men left the movement. Could someone also tell me if those that are currently the big shots (Martindale, Clark especially) have ever apologized to those they excommunicated (without letting them give their side of the story to the gathered congregation, I might add).

It seems to me that GC will be fighting this until the excommunications are undone and specifically and humbly apologized for. No excuses. No, "we did some wrong things cuz we were young, but in spite of that God was with us" talk. They need to specifically, and sincerely, and humbly admit wrongdoing. Period. Admit that their actions, in fact slandered fellow believers and do all they can do to make it right.

[BTDT]

c&s - I don't know if you will see this post, but hopefully you'll get a "topic updated" message and come take a look. :-)

I'm so glad you talked to your pastors, and they gave you an answer you can accept.  A similar thing happened with me at the GCM church I attended a few years ago.  (I was part of the whole GCI thing in the 1980s; I got to see Jim first-hand, so we skipped the "who's McCotter" part. :-) )

Keep tuned to our only Tuning Fork (thanks for the quote, Linda!), and you'll be able to tell if someone else's piano goes out of tune.

God bless you, and keep on pointing people to Jesus!
B

[Independence survivor]

Dave Gumlia was one of the elders in Independence, MO, along with Kirk Anderson.  I remember how stunned I was when he came back from the excommunication meeting in Columbus, and how we all just accepted it.  That was the beginning of the end for me.  There followed over the next couple of years a string of "disfellowshipping", and ultimately I was disfellowshipped for disagreeing with Dave and Kirk.
Would love to know what happened to Kirk.  He was a genius, a gifted and compassionate person.
No one from the group has ever sought me out to apologize.

[BTDT]

Hi, Survivor -- I am so sad for the things you had to go through back then, and how poorly you and so many others were treated.  I know the disfellowshipping must have been devastating, but if there's a silver lining, it's that it got you out of there.  A couple of those happened in the Maryland church as well.  Looking back, I too am shocked at how we all just accepted it. 

Your mention of Dave Gumlia sent me on a short Googlefest.    It seems Dave has written a book within the past year or so:

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/deep-calls-unto-deep/5231877?productTrackingContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/1

I found one review of it, and was shocked to read this sentence at the end:

"His dramatic conversion in 2004 has led to a radical change in his life."

Here's a link to the review:
http://scribalanointing.voicesofchrist.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=235:deep-calls-unto-deep-passionate-prayer-poems&catid=114:voc-authors&Itemid=122&lang=fr

I don't know much about the Voices of Christ Literary Ministries or its parent, Harvest International Network, except that their web site is heavy into titles (Prophetess, Minister, Apostle (warning flag?), etc).  Still, I'm intrigued enought that I think I'm going to get the book and see what it's all about.

B

[Independence survivor]

What was the path out of GCI like for Gumlia and the other elder, Kirk Anderson?

[BTDT]

As far as Dave goes, all I ever knew was that one day he was working at HQ, the next he was gone.  I don't recall any explanation being given, but there's a lot I don't remember from 25 years ago. Something might have been said, but I don't recall anything dramatic.  Hopefully someone else can fill in some more details - I'm fairly sure there's a lurker or two who would know.

[ExWCCC]

Please stay away from WCCC... If you want detailed info on it I will release it privately... I don't yet feel comfortable about sharing it all openly yet

[EverAStudent]

Welcome to the forum exwccc!  No need to go public with anything unless you are comfortable with that.

We have found that we are quite the eclectic (did I spell that right?) group here; all different backgrounds, different experiences, and even different kinds of hurt.  Cling to Christ, He is the one who paid for you and keeps His Spirit in you, not the church.

Again, welcome.

[theresearchpersona]

Hi confusedandsearching,

Condolences. Several things I've found that help greatly [follow].
One is figuring-out "what's going on here" in GC, past and present (and there's a lot more of the past than some wish, and that also varies with location, though GC* has often pushed for more conformity through influence of conferences and such). This forum and the resource sites letting their own words out to the world help a lot for those who can make the connections. Practically everything fin those materials rom the 70s and 80s applied very well to the situation I had found myself in just a few years ago.

Then some outside commentary, whether directly upon GC*, or the trends it has followed/imbibed. Some of those are also indicated on this forum and the related resource sites, and I'll let you do whatever research is necessary to the contentment of your heart. Some others, however, that were very illuminating (I found) include "Redefining Christianity" by Bob DeWaay (I also picked up the Purpose Driven Church book--a large book of drivel that made me very sad, but directly the topic touched upon by DeWaay's book as well as the source, I found, for many almost- copy-pasted documents/policies/contracts (e.g. the membership oath) found in GC* today); "Christless Christianity" by Michael Horton (actually I've read excerpts, related articles, and listened to/read other materials by the man, but plan on reading the book--of which I've already found some good critiques and there are imperfections, of course, so be discerning when you read anything); ...you know, that's all I'll put in the "critique" category, and say the following.

Even more important than the expose [what is false, mixed, not upright, deceitful, twisted, etc.]-critique-compare (to scripture), which are indeed vital--those are all tasks which genuine pastors are commanded to undertake and that seriously, and quite forcefully, in the NT, is the gospel itself: one of the things I left over was that I could count different gospels...and even the supposed leaders had no clue as to why this or that one was different: or indeed why the Jesus one guy professed that grievously deviated from the biblical Jesus was not...the biblical Jesus (even among leaders themselves); I have two books full of Scriptural goodness to the Christian that needs instruction, edification, consolation, correction, and so on--all things which I never found any who is exiting GC* is in no need of: one is "The Power of God unto Salvation" by B.B. Warfield, which you'll find with a little consideration is widely applicable to most everything practiced, whether in Church as worship or in the streets for evangelism (or in both for the latter), popularly in the modern Church as correction: a firm and unmoving correction he provides to innumerable ills and counterfeits without ever really being sidetracked from the object of his attention as a writer in that work: Christ crucified, and all that goes with it. Highly recommended and public domain--you can find it on Archive.org or get it cheaply online in reprint (which I highly recommend doing: I have only a paperback but it's one of those books I carry around everywhere these days drinking it up); another is "The Basis of Christian Unity" by Martin L. Jones, which is antithetical to the unity preached in GC* in order to demand conformity to men's words even over God's and to guilt people into submission even against conscience and sense.

I might even suggest you read the latter books first, which focus on truth, and then the former books, which subject untruths to it, so that you mind may begin the process of compare/contrast (with some aid from those works) itself before getting into more explicit works that delve into that task. Something I realized about GC* is that since its practices and teaching do not align--even just going sort of skey from parallel is still not the way--to the words, that it's very suggestive of unregeneracy and that widespreadly: all evidence suggested such while I was there (people not really knowing the gospel, just substitutes, or of the person of Christ, hating "theology" but loving whatever "message" made-up about God by the pastor from his own ideas each Sunday which made Him more pleasant, the man-centered/focused-ness, and so on). It's easy in GC* to walk around the periphery, that is, of things that are good, lovely, noble, etc. all in themselves, but never get at the center--Christ Himself (of whom I sadly add, must be defined and depicted biblically, not so that He'll be more attractive to increase attendence/participants numbers): there are many things that may be called benefits of Christ for which men seek Him, but not for Him Himself or for the thing He came to give--salvation from sin (this is a major point of Warfield's book and a reason it's so resonant to this mind for without ever reading such a thing I had begun thinking just such a thing--that I was surrounded by people here for this and that and the other, but not really about the Biblical Christ for Biblical reasons--for Christ's own reasons, that is, to save from sin: dismissal of untruth or the importance of truth itself, and even deception and malpractice among leaders and laypeople alike in the name of "well they know Christ, that's all that matters" or "well I know his/here/their heart" or "they were just trying to evangelize" and so on doesn't evince sanctification).

Putting it much shorter and using a somewhat cliche analogy: counterfeiters study the real thing more than the counterfeits: that doesn't make awareness of counterfeits, or discernment between true and false, unimporant: in fact there's at least one place of the NT  where the Greek can be rendered "false coinage". But to do that well and surely, one must first have a thorough or at least working grasp--and refining if not the former or if it is inaccurate or twisted, and GC* really twists things up--of the real thing. It's upon knowing the truth that one begins to see evidently that which is posing.

Kyrie Eleison, and all grace and truth to you.

[Janet Easson Martin]

Dear confused member,

Been there.  Done that.  Read especially the beginning of my hello and testimony.  By the way, there is no such thing as a "higher church" or a "best way" to serve God.  ANY HEALTHY church will let you go and come as you please, visit other christian churches, go to other christian organizations if they want God's best for you.  Otherwise, they aren't concerned about you or the Universal Body of Christ, only their own exultation and not really Christ's.  Many in it don't even realize they are not only not serving Christ's interest, but hindering it.  God kept saying to me over and over (while I withered away in my unhealthy church) these verses, but I didn't get it, because my allegiance was transferred to them, and no longer the God of the Bible:

"Who has bewitched you?..."  (Galations 3:1)
'(Why are you) so quickly deserting the one who has called you...(?)  [paraphrase of Galations 1:6 & 7]

Ask God for his wisdom, and tell him you are willing to follow Him, alone, wherever he sends you.  (James 1:6)  You must be totally dependent on Him and believe He is the one who holds the good plans for each day of your life in his hands.   Oh, confused one, He has such good plans for you they don't even fit in your imagination.  He created you for very definite awe inspiring works and wants you to find them through seeking him on your own; and getting to know him sooo personally.  He does not tell his specific day to day plans for you to your pastor or to your best friend.  He tells them to you because He seeks intimacy with you.  Then, you follow through (in his power) to the best of your ability.  Keep your allegiance to God alone and you'll be alright.  And, of course, obey God by meeting with healthy christians in a healthy church.

Janet Easson Martin